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59 Comments
- friend18, on 10/12/2007, -4/+32This story is chilling!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25Jealous?
- siliconentity, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19Jeez dude if you care so much why not just sign up to get frozen yourself? It's not like it's a secret club and they're not letting anybody else in. Anybody can do it.
- blobdole, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16I was wondering if maybe WaterDragon had some sort of personal relationship with the guy. Talk about an unprovoked angry rant...
- Moocat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15Do frozen people dream of popsicle sheep?
- johntwoods, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12oh waterdragon... you'll bury us all!!!
/hearty fatherly laugh - gr8one, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10You guys are so cold.
- YoungBrews, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics
Cryonics, not cryogenics. - SqueakyMouse, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Sounds like modern day mummification to me.
- HsoKinees, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6if I had the chance i'd love to be cryogenically frozen.. I don't have many attachments to this world that can't be broken.. and I'm really curious about the future of this planet and the human race..
- killthemoles, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6wow i would do this if i could, but you have to agree that theres gonna be a bunch of "pro-death" protesters surronding the building until the persons dead... really dead
- masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Wouldn't the proper thing to do, that is, if you want to be revived in the future, be to freeze yourself BEFORE you're dead? That way, when they unfreeze you (properly, using future techniques), you'd still be alive, and then they could do whatever medical things they wanted. Otherwise, you'd just be a frozen corpse.
- cosmicv, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Cheat natural processes? Like using fire and tools?
- cosmicv, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Gets the facts from a group that has some actual knowledge of the subject.
http://www.alcor.org/FAQs/index.html - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5read the story... theyll be dead before they get frozen.
- pritch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I suppose it's just another form of self preservation, really. In a way, it's not all that different to looking both ways before crossing the road.
Sure, death is inevitable, but I'd rather put off that day as long as I can. And if, some day, I can undo it... hmmm. I probably wouldn't, but I can see why others might want to give it a go. - Moocat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5He spent $650K in research building the place, however, most cryogenic facilities will accept your life insurance policy, even a $10k one. So basically WaterDragon, anyone can be frozen. There's two facilities in the US I believe. For the most part, the belief that the human body can be revived and rebuilt, even from damaged frozen cells, deals directly with transhumanism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism ). It's like a science fiction theory for the opposite end of scientology, but without all the religous *****, aliens and evil spirits.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Im going to freeze just my head, cause it is cheaper. In the future when someone becomes brain dead, they'll transplant me to that body (yes in the future).
- hiscity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2All the more reason to take really good care of your relatives, keep peace with your enemies, and get a naturally cryogenic-cold storage vault on the moon.
- hiscity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hey, the ancient Egyptians were on to something. Using the limits of their technology they tried to preserve themselves -- including their organs (in separate vessels).
As I recall, in addition to chemical methods of preservation, the pyramids remain cooler internally than most of us would be comfortable with. I wonder if the design is like a heat-exchanger with wind running over the external face?
Also, they used fairly elaborate containers to seal up the mummies. So yeah, it's like what the Egyptians tried to do using primitive technology. - scuzzman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3FTA: "They believed advances in technology will help bring them back to life."
Believed? So the writer assumes they won't make it? - subscribtion, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I want to be frozen in carbonite. Then, I don't want to be unfrozen. My son can just keep me in his living room.
- hiscity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2At the risk of repeating myself -- Frozen is not Dead!
Just think of the moon as a deep freeze. There's plenty of long term near cryogenic temperature storage on the moon (Aitken Basin, etc. 10s of thousands of square kilometers). Storage options could include: organs from deceased relatives (for possible later transplant, such as eyes), entire bodies instead of burial, long term storage of fertilized eggs from IVF treatments, storage of fertilized eggs from all earth animals, or even tissue samples from all organic life including plants and microbes. (aka bio-bank)
Social impacts are extreme. We can can freeze and revive cellular masses of tissue now, as is done with cryopreservation for IVF treatments. There's a 50% success rate at re-implanting the fertilized eggs and birthing human babies. The same technique is used in animal husbandry with about the same success rate.
Beyond fertilized eggs -- when organs can be reliably frozen and revived -- parents could preserve their organs for their children to use in they grow old or in case of accident. You might need your dad or mom's knee, kidney, or eyes when you get to be their age. That means taking care of them better now!
It also means that some folks might choose to have their bodies frozen rather than go through the decay of extreme old age or the prospect of euthanasia, hoping: (a) cures can be found to revive and repair them, (b) that the chances of revival would be better for those frozen younger, or (b) that their organs would be healthier if needed by one of their children or grandchildren. There are huge social implications to just freezing and reviving organs, short of whole bodies.
Incidentally, wood frogs freeze solid during winter, no heartbeat and no neural activity and they revive in spring in just a couple of hours. It's just a matter of overcoming technical hurdles to reach the point of preserving organs. We already see something similar in nature. Quick freezing (vitrification) is one way to reduce ice crystal formation in cells. The key is finding a way to stop crystals from forming.
Of course, we wouldn't have stop at the moon. Slow moving deep space transports with similar bio-banks could be sent outbound from the solar system. If future generations ever had to recover some preserved organics, they could go retrieve them. If not, then eventually the transports might seed life elsewhere in the cosmos, with a little robotic help.
Every moon or asteroid in the solar system (and even pluto) could likewise support cryo-storage. Instead of burying newly deceased bodies we could freeze them -- every generation! You may even lay down to die and wake up on another planet under a distant sun -- part of a colony to seed life throughout the galaxies!
It all starts with dropping a container of cryo-preserved tissues, (such as the excess IVF fertilized eggs), in a crater bottom on the moon that is permanently shielded from sunlight. Later as space travel becomes more commercialized it could be retrieved, possibly even by the great-nieces or nephews of the siblings of IVF "babies" that were successfully brought to term. They might adopt and re-implant their own great uncles and aunts that were kept in storage as "snowflakes."
The point is -- Frozen is Not Dead. We are close to having this technology.
references:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14349962/ ("Sperm from ... frozen mice yield offspring")
http://www.livescience.com/othernews/050223_arctic_life.html ("Creatures Frozen for 32,000 Years Still Alive")
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4605398.stm ("'Doomsday' seed bank to be built")
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4655035.stm ("[13 year] frozen embryo baby born")
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2006/07/souls_on_ice.html?welcome=true ("Souls on Ice" ... 400K-500K)
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0201fea5.asp ("Can Frozen Embryos Be Saved?" Catholic opposistion to cryopreservation...)
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002818691_iceworms21m.html ("Ice Worms")
http://http-server.carleton.ca/~kbstorey/ftverts.htm ("Freeze Tolerant Vertebrates")
http://www.advancedfertility.com/cryo.htm ("Embryo Freezing")
= cite 1 = (for sources not online or subscriber only)
The Daily Mail (London, England), Feb 18, 1998 p16
Melting hearts, the new ice baby.
Full Text: COPYRIGHT 1998 Solo Syndication Limited
CUTE and cuddly, the world's 'oldest newborn baby' could manage only a sleepy smile when he took his first photo-call yesterday.
The healthy 8lb 15oz boy was born two days ago - eight years after his mother's fertilised eggs were frozen by a revolutionary process called cryopreservation.
[...]
=cite 2=
The Times (London, England), May 25, 1994 p7
Deep-frozen plants are made immortal. (Home news)
Full Text: COPYRIGHT 1994 The Times
ENDANGERED plants are being frozen by British scientists to be stored in suspended animation. The technique called cryopreservation promises immortality to species threatened by environmental unheavals such as the destruction of the rain forests.
[...]
=cite 3= www.nature.com/news/2003/030324/full/030324-3.html
The north pole of the moon has many sunless craters. ... So the floors of some
craters close to the poles are always dark. Bussey's team has calculated the ...
[...]
=cite 4= http://www.ichg2006.com/abstract/135.htm (abstract follows)
Frozen Alive: Gene Secrets of Freeze Tolerant Animals Show New Directions for Cryomedicine
Kenneth Storey, Carleton University, Canada
Although alien to the physiology of man, natural freeze tolerance is key to winter survival for various amphibians and reptiles as well as many invertebrate species. These animals survive for weeks with as much as ~65% of total body water frozen as extracellular ice. By unraveling the molecular secrets of natural freezing survival of frogs and turtles, we advance our understanding of both cryoinjury and cryopreservation and identify molecular targets for the development of organ cryopreservation technology. Rapidly advancing genomic and proteomic technologies are producing key advances in our understanding of how cells and organisms survive freezing. Our previous focus on cell protection (e.g. packing cells with cryoprotectants) is giving way to an understanding of the full range of genetic adjustments that support natural freezing survival including freeze responsive genes involved in ischemia protection, antioxidant defenses, cell volume regulation, membrane transporters, signal transduction cascades (protein kinases and phosphatases), and metabolic arrest mechanisms. My lab has successfully utilized methods including cDNA library screening, the use of DNA arrays and transcription factor protocols to identify a wide range of gene targets that show strong up-regulation during natural freezing exposure, many of them common across phylogenetic lines. Screening of cDNA libraries has also documented the expression of three novel genes in freeze tolerant frogs with differential patterns of expression (organ, time, response to second messengers) whose cryoprotective actions are as yet unknown but overexpression in insect cell lines strongly improves freezing survival in vitro For more information on natural freeze tolerance go to: www.carleton.ca/~kbstorey. (Funded by the NSERC Canada) - Stevethegreat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Tell me WaterDragon, is it selfish for one wanting to keep himself alive without violating other people's freedoms? Or to put it differently do you account yourself selfish for being alive and not wanting to die tomorrow?
I think your moral system is a little screwed because being pro-death is a fallacy as soon as you are alive. You have no right to pull out the plugs because this would technically be a murder as they will in fact be in a deep coma and not dead (their body failed but their brain would be untouched and as soon as their brain is OK they have a chance for reanimation, they are not "dead"). I want to see what your bunch will do if a drug that overrides your "natural order" by extending human lifespan beyond 100 years will come out.
Having said all these I'm really indifferent towards cryonics and I don't have any plans of making use of them for me or my family, but that doesn't qualify me to bash those who will act differently and use cryonics, even less go as far as terminating their cryopreservation. - noeljohnhoward, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2im going to friend moocat for his awesome PKD reference
- cosmicv, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Read the Alcor FAQ link I posted. They address this exact question...
http://www.alcor.org/FAQs/faq07.html#bottle - DeusGear, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1So who's going to maintain all of this while you're frozen. What if people just don't buy it in a 100 years and stop supporting the program, then aren't they just going to unplug you?
- Genghis1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is a better option than being cremated or buried. At least you have a chance to be revived if you're preserved using cryogenics. If it doesn't work you lose nothing, but if it works you gain your life back!
- osc1882, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I guess in order to believe in this you would have to, or want to, not believe in the human soul. Are we truely just this crud matter that we are made out of? If you lose a arm, do you lose part of yourself? Is that arm you?
If there is a soul does it stay in the body? Does it leave to some place? If it leaves to some place does it come back after you return life to the body? Just questions. - scottybowl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1When I die I want to get frozen. The way I see it is that there is so much to do in life and so much that I want to experience but I'll never get to do all of it in the 70 odd years I'll be around.
A few people seem to be getting very angry about the idea of doing this - if it's immoral, then I'll go to hell, so stop worrying! - Moocat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Only if he never wants to get laid...ever. ;)
- plasticquart, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You are correct, to a point. Water, when frozen, forms a crystalesque structure which damages at the cellular level (ever notice that when you thaw frozen fruit how it is complete mush... well this is what happens to human cells when frozen as we have a lot of water in us).
Anywho, the thought is that down the road (50 or 100 or 1000 or 100000 or X years from now), science will devise a method for: 1. reanimating these bodies safely. 2. curing whatever killed them in the first place. 3. profit!... err, allowing these people to continue on as living beings as best as they see fit.
The "safe reanimation" is obviously a tricky part... but who is to say where science will take us X years from now? Through either nanotechnology (imagine nanobots entering the body and repairing this cellular damage, or possibly growing new bodies and simply reanimating the brain and putting the brain in a new body... or, again, who knows where/what science will be capable of down the road. - hiscity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1re: ...dream...
lambchops, eh! - Computer_Kid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'll do it! Whats there to loose!
- mgroat, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6"A biologist wants to deep freeze his parents and himself in Australia's first cryogenic centre after they die."
I think you would need to freeze yourself BEFORE you die for cryogenics to work. - hiscity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1OK, how's this: http://science.physorg.com/news70025926.html
"Slow-frozen people? Latest research supports possibility of cryopreservation" - hiscity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Or this: http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060825-015110-8544r
"Carp's body helps its survival sans oxygen"
(more of same)
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php%3FStoryID%3D20060825-015110-8544r - cosmicv, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Refusing life saving treatment is generally called sucide, but if thats what you want, knock yourself out.
- JorgeGT, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Do we die?
- Drull, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Well, if they're freezing them after they die.. why not just do away with them after that? why bother going through all the trouble to freeze them, then dispose of them?
I wanna be frozen too :( - nbx909, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3correct scientists have been saying that for awhile, they are pretty sure eventually you could revive somebody from a cryogenic state, and it's been done with wolfs iirc, but they have to be ALIVE when you do it.
- gforb, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6Dom Deluise will protect his babies from freezer burn.
http://pages.adsbydee.com/11382/PictPage/1922584660.html
/obscure? - simpleid, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I've read the problem with this is the blood crystalizes when it's ftozen, during the process in which you would be thawed you don't thaw perfectly, the crystals crack and shatter; hence you're blood and nerves do as well. So it's pretty stupid and dangerous unless I'm mistaken or there are some new advancements.
- quietbob, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1this *austrailian for cryogenics* is going too far
- Anpheus, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4No, no. You have to give it a positive spin, something like "Anti-Life." Or maybe more ironically, the group could call themselves "Pro-Choice," that is, they believe that the frozen people should be allowed to choose when they are unfrozen. Of course, since their brain isn't functioning, the "Pro-Choice" group would say that in absence of decision or the ability to make a choice, they should just pull the plug as it would be the most humane thing to do.
- yearginchess, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0They think someday they'll be brought back to life. Let me guess...as animatronics?
- sroske, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2some ancient religions maintain that the soul can't move on until the body decomposes. some flavors of tibetan buddhism are like this.
- bigredgpk, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Ted William's son would be pround of him... if he wasn't frozen already...
poor Teddy... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1If I must suffer, humanity will suffer with me.
- RegisteredUser, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1From the article..
"They believed advances in technology will help bring them back to life."
I think that should be, They HOPE advances in technology will help bring them back to life. But if it works, then say Hi to Bender for me! -
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