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174 Comments
- Kugelblitze, on 02/24/2009, -4/+71Seems like there wouldn't be an issue if M.D.'s referred to themselves as "physicians" rather than "doctors", as the second term can relate to any number of disciplines. Sounds like a trumped up pissing contest.
- mrcoldcow, on 02/24/2009, -9/+70This is silly.
Women can't be doctors. - fedak, on 02/24/2009, -0/+26Doctorates in Nursing are hardly new.
- lohphat, on 02/24/2009, -4/+20Compare the length of training and content between the two disciplines -- they are not similar in the level of detail, analytical/diagnostic rigor, and ultimate responsibilities.
This is just insurance companies trying to blur the distinction to maximize profits by lowering cost of services. - inactive, on 02/24/2009, -4/+19it would surely add new twist to pornos.
Janitors go around calling themselves "Building Engineers" so now these Docs know how we Engineers feel - skywake, on 02/24/2009, -1/+13When you get a doctorate in any discipline that's the title that is given to you. I agree with Kugelblitze (above) here, if anything MD's should call themselves Physicians just like I would call myself a Computer Scientist but if I did get a Doctorate and my name was written on an official document you can be sure as hell I would have "Dr" before my name.
Also, this is hardly the only word that causes this sort of confusion. Say hello to the English Language! - ozzie20, on 02/24/2009, -2/+14As a physician, this is a huge problem these days. I get calls regularly by patients who state "the doctor told me to take these herbal pills, the doctor told me to take this, etc etc", when in fact these are nurses, Physician Assistants, etc etc who really don't know what they are doing. The problem isn't MD arrogance, its about patient care. Patients don't know, and shouldn't be expected to know the difference between a doctor of nursing, or a physician.
To genconkeeper, true, 75% of the stuff that comes in the door can be treated by a nurse, hell, 75% of the stuff that comes in your mom and dad can treat. The problem comes in when 25% of the time something looks like a cold, and ends up being leukemia or some other disease that can potentially kill a person. The "powers that pay the bills" DON'T care about people's lives, they care about exactly what you're talking about, the green backs, nothing else.
Over the last 3 months alone, I've seen a nurse call herself the cardiologist, another one overmedicate a patient to the point he was delirious, and a third one try to start a surgery all by himself without a surgeon simply because "he thought he could do it." Anyone here want to let someone who's never been to medical school take out their gall bladder? - passedoutghost, on 02/24/2009, -2/+14Maybe you should start reading the articles, then forming an educated opinion before making an idiot of yourself.
- MrFurious2k, on 02/24/2009, -0/+10You have officially traumatized me. Someone seriously tried to start a surgery by himself because he thought he could do it?
- Rain12913, on 02/24/2009, -0/+9You do know what the D in MD stands for, right?
- AlpineStars777, on 02/23/2009, -7/+16The matter, Greg RN, is that when this toilet is flushed, it runs, and when you have a septic tank that's nearly full and a toilet that's been running all night, then you could have a hell of a problem.
- burketo, on 02/24/2009, -1/+10Seriously? You just finished medical school and you can't understand the concept of a PhD in Nursing?
- noisymime, on 02/24/2009, -1/+10Its someone with a PhD in nursing, simple.
- KibibyteBrain, on 02/24/2009, -0/+8I guess it depends on where you are. If you worked at a University that probably wouldn't be your opinion. Also, Lawyers generally would not have Ph.D.s, but J.D.s, although it is possible to get a Ph.D. in law, or both degrees. The Juris Doctorate is the professional degree analogous to the M.D., while the Ph.D. is the academic degree in law.(although I will point out that because the Ph.D. is less regulated by the government that sometimes Ph.D. programs can be suspect in law) Similarly, you can get a Ph.D. in areas of Biology relevant to medicine, focusing on the academic perspective. This isn't that hard to grasp.
- squaz, on 02/24/2009, -1/+9Not true. Comparably:
Physicians require a four year degree to get into medical school, four more years of medical school, and then depending on speciality, two to six more years of residency training. This is, at least, a minimum of ten years of training required.
Nurses, on the other hand, can enter the profession with as little as a two year degree. Not knocking what they do but we need to be realistic: this isn't some conspiracy from insurance companies, one of the most heavily regulated industries in the world. This is the natural reaction of not enough people being trained to become doctors. And nurses. - cocaclay, on 02/24/2009, -1/+9I once knew a physician whose last name was Nurse. Doctor Nurse.
Man that would suck - idc5, on 02/24/2009, -1/+9The problem here is clearly stated in the article - physicians feel like other disciplines are invading their turf of esteem and accomplishment. A doctorate degree gives that person the right to be called Dr.
- LacY, on 02/24/2009, -3/+11True, but the nomenclature is already in position--when we think doctor, we think medical doctor, despite the fact that any PhD (or lawyer, etc) is a "doctor."
For that reason, the nurses' name tags should read Nurse X, RN, PhD, not Dr. Nurse X. In fact, most physician's name tags (in my experience) say John Doe, MD. I'm getting my PhD, but I don't really consider that I'm going to be "Dr. Lacy" and I wouldn't require anyone to call me that. - DrNemo, on 02/24/2009, -4/+12Doctors don't like competition.
- visiblepulse, on 02/24/2009, -3/+11A Physician is a medical professional, and will work to cure your condition.
A Doctor is a businessman, and will work to treat your condition. - noisymime, on 02/24/2009, -1/+9You realise that the title of Dr for a PhD has been around longer than its use for physicians right? If anyone should give the title up, its MDs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title) - mrwhitethc, on 02/24/2009, -1/+8Totally agree, I never understood why they have a god complex, shouldn't everyone be willing to help someone in need and not stick your nose up at others around you? I've always wanted to get my PhD so I could make them call me Dr.
- priegog, on 02/24/2009, -1/+8The problem you refer to in the firt paragraph is a consequence of your healthcare system and isn't so in other countries. But no I don't agree a nurse should have the ability to prescribe meds...
I agree with your second paragraph, tho. My father has always said laws should be changed to protect doctors againt frivolous lawsuits due to human errors... It should be assumed doctors DO NOT want to hurt a patient. Instead doctors are forced to practice "defensive medicine" which ends up being worse for EVERYONE (except insurance companies maybe), and not only economically, but phisically for the patient as well (creating unnecesary delays, higher radiation exposure and unnecesary meds and contrast materials, etc). - Severys, on 02/24/2009, -2/+9***** you, no one is telling me I can't use my title.
FYI a MD only has to master a discpline. A PhD has to master a discipline and make a contribution to the knowledge base. Also the title Dr for a PhD holder came before the MD. - xpinchx, on 02/24/2009, -2/+9Too many people are treading on the MD's (or DO's) feet nowadays. The long white lab coat used to be reserved only for those with a doctoral medical degree, and sometimes even only after their internship (an additional 3 or more years after they get their MD). Nowadays nurses, techs, and a lot of other lower-level hospital staff wear the coat as part of their job. Mid-level practitioners like nurse practitioners, physician assistants, nurse anesthetists, etc. are doing more and more mundane doctoral duties and frequently they get mistaken for nurses (especially male ones) and the vast majority that get called "doctor" by patients probably don't bother to correct them.
I agree it could be harmful to a patient to mistake someone that's not a medical doctor as a physician, but as long as they identify themselves as their correct position, who cares? They are there to help their patients and assist the doctors with more mundane things to free up the MDs for the more complex cases. - palehorse864, on 02/24/2009, -0/+6You're crazy...
Ok, and with the initial request out of the way, let's move on to other stuff.
The title of doctor wasn't originally used for medical doctors. It meant you had earned a Doctoral degree. In the beginning of the whole thing, those were law degrees, and it meant you could either teach others or practice yourself. - misterparry, on 02/24/2009, -1/+7As if the Hospital paperwork wasn't confusing enough...
- anotherjack, on 02/24/2009, -2/+8It doesn't surprise me that your "sisters" are arrogant, cold-hearted, and frustrated at work. What surprises me is that you don't see why?
- crh3f, on 02/24/2009, -0/+6you're right, longer to get than the MD. But there's no practicing MD who hasn't finished a residency which lasts minimum of 3 years. So that's 7 post-college.
- Statopspin, on 02/24/2009, -4/+9This is rather petite. Most Nurse Phds would probably be employed in Academia. (though I have no statistics for this) Those that aren't would probably be intelligent enough to know that in a hospital setting they do not get to use the term Doctor, just like any other PHD.
- robertj22, on 02/24/2009, -0/+5The reason for the PhD in Nursing is because there is a severe lack of faculty to teach and train nurses. Nursing schools would love to expand and fill the need that we have in this country, but because of the lack of qualified faculty they can not do so. Many universities require tenure track positions to be filled by PhDs... My wife is in nursing school right now and her school now offers the PhD, and as hey have explained it, it was primarily to create nursing school instructors and promote new research in the field of Nursing...
- emt1451, on 02/24/2009, -0/+5The proper phrase is "For Pete's Sake". Unless you know somebody named Pete Sakes...
- reeds1999, on 02/24/2009, -5/+10Typical American MD arrogance. MDs should call themselves MDs or Physician, problem solved.
- lonelycanuck, on 02/24/2009, -1/+6I'm sorry, but you must be on crack.
4 years of undergrad + 4 years of medical school + residency + fellowship. is not the same as 6 years to obtain a DNP - sirbeta, on 02/24/2009, -2/+7Exactly. I'm not seeing the issue here. If someone is seriously hurt and that phrase "Is anyone a doctor?" uttered, why would someone other than a physician raise their hand? When that phrase is spoken, you know exactly what is being asked. You're not asking if someone has a doctorate. you're asking if someone is a bloody doctor. On that same note, I would wing a guess they would still make the distinction that they are a nurse if worse came to worse and they needed to aid someone.
Physicians are just afraid of losing their exclusive title in the medical field. - guyincognitoo, on 02/24/2009, -0/+5Article I found a while ago.
When in practice, Doctor's engage in defensive medicine to protect themselves against a lawsuit. They perform tests and provide treatments that they would not otherwise perform merely to protect themselves against the risk of possible litigation. The survey revealed that over 76% are concerned that malpractice litigation has hurt their ability to provide quality care to patients.
Because of the resulting legal fear:
· 79% said that they had ordered more tests than they would, based only on professional judgment of what is medically needed, and 91% have noticed other physicians ordering more tests;
· 74% have referred patients to specialists more often than they believed was medically necessary;
· 51% have recommended invasive procedures such as biopsies to confirm diagnoses more often than they believed was medically necessary; and
· 41% said that they had prescribed more medications, such as antibiotics, than they would based only on their professional judgment, and
. 73% have noticed other doctors similarly prescribing excessive medications.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/daltcp/reports/litrefm.pdf - secrity, on 02/24/2009, -0/+4In some areas, I believe in Canada, engineers need to be certified or licensed in order to call themselves an engineer.
I hate it when people, especially my boss, refer to me as an engineer -- I am a sys admin, not an engineer.
I was amused when I was in Saudi Arabia and I heard electricians being referred to as an electrical engineer or diesel mechanics being referred to as mechanical engineers.. - Ne007, on 02/24/2009, -12/+16The general public will always be confused about what exactly nurses do.
I'd personally would rather see a nurse practitioner than a medical doctor. NP's are trained much the same what doctors used to be trained before the pharmaceutical industry took over their training.
Doctors are focused on treating you with medicine, NPs are focused on listening to you and developing a treatment plan that will alter your lifestyle in a way that helps you with your problems...and that may involve medicine also.
NPs have a holistic approach to health care and disease prevention. Physicians have a pharmaceutical approach to treating your sickness.
Completely different focus of training from the beginning. The best Physicians were nurses first. - adikt, on 02/24/2009, -1/+5My cats vet is Dr. House.
- KibibyteBrain, on 02/24/2009, -3/+7How is this so difficult to understand. You can get a Doctorate in any purely academic area, and nursing is clearly one. If someone had a Ph.D. in Engineering would you say he was trying to "masquerade" as a medical doctor too? I can only assume a Doctor of Nursing would perform research in better nursing methods, underlying theories of nursing and the nurse's role, and to make case studies in his field, much like any other Ph.D.
- Kugelblitze, on 02/24/2009, -0/+4I appreciate the thoughts LacY. I am not currently enrolled but I have already gotten a M.S. degree and I plan on getting a PhD in my field of study and will hopefully teach after that. I fully expect to have my students and colleagues call me Doctor Kugelblitze (little joke). In all seriousness I do expect the title to be applied to my name.
- fedak, on 02/24/2009, -0/+4This. Most doctorate level Nurses are either doing research, teaching, authoring or some combination of the above.
- CaptMonkey, on 02/24/2009, -3/+7I don't see what the big deal is. There are already doctors in the medical field who aren't physicians whom people deal with all the time. They're called pharmacists. There's usually not any confusion there, I don't see why this should be any different. It's not like they're going to start dressing and posing as physicians to intentionally confuse patients. Sounds like they just need to get over themselves.
- qjkwtf, on 02/24/2009, -0/+3"Doctor, Doctor. Glad I'm not sick."
-Bob Hope, 'Spies Like Us' - inactive, on 02/24/2009, -2/+5well really it would be a pseudo-doctor. and there are already nurse-practitioners, which are like half way between nurse and doctor.
- SmokenJoe, on 02/24/2009, -6/+9Silly, having a bunch of letters behind your name doesnt mean you are qualified. Advanced practice nurses are replacing doctors. It doesnt matter what you call them. It is often the difference between seeing someone and not being treated. Small delays can men life and death or a minor problem gets a change to get serious. They prescribe the same meds do the same assessments as a GP. The nurse just gets paid less and has lower costs for school insurance and doesnt have to have the same connections to get into school.
Blame the lawyers for a lot of this they are driving many out of medicine. You would be shocked just how much of the medical bill is caused by the law system and false claims. Malpractice and lawsuit driven tests are bleeding the system to death. - lonelycanuck, on 02/24/2009, -1/+4You forget that those of us in medical school did not just do 4 years of undergraduate + 4 years of medical school.
For me, it was;
4 years undergraduate + 4 years medical school + residency + fellowship - plainOldFool, on 02/24/2009, -0/+3WHAT?!?!? My wife is in nursing school and I quiz her constantly for her tests. Concentrating on "basic human needs a patient wants and deserves: empathy, gentleness" is almost in the exclusive domain of nursing along with patient advocacy and patient education. Doctors are notorious for having piss-poor bedside manner.
- warriorscot, on 02/24/2009, -0/+3Wow you must be living on the other side of the looking glass because that is about the polar opposite to what it is like in the rest of the world.
And where is it the still have "Sisters" It is a bit of an antiquated term I haven't heard it used since when my great aunt was a nurse. - Gaalsien, on 02/24/2009, -0/+3Not quite a Nurse, not quite a Doctor, but they come with a slice of cantaloupe at the end.
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