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167 Comments
- merm, on 06/21/2009, -2/+15One of the big negatives levied against the Canadian system is the wait times for procedures. There are even a few cases of people dying while on a 'wait list' to get a needed surgery. This 'rationing' of health care is used to defend the American system, but this argument completely overlooks the fact that in the American system far more people die from the American system of health care rationing - economic rationing. One out of three Americans is on a permanent 'wait list', and the other 2/3 who have insurance are likely to have to fight with their insurance company if they come down with one of the more expensive things to treat. American 'rationing' of health care is far worse than the worst province in Canada.
Also, that people can come from other countries and get treatment in the United States isn't necessarily a compliment of our system. The truth is that thousands of Americans go to other countries for various treatments as well. Various 'missionary' and 'non-profit' organizations are setting up 'medical clinics' of the variety you hear about in third world countries in parking lots of stadiums to treat Americans with no insurance. That people can come to our country and buy their way into the medical system ahead of our own flesh and blood that is getting only the most basic health care from non-profit and missionary organizations isn't exactly a compliment of the system, but a judgment against what the American health system stands for and who it values.
Ultimately, the US health system doesn't serve patients - it serves the almighty dollar. US health care isn't about health, it's about profit. Health is only an occasional side effect. - alais, on 06/21/2009, -1/+14No such thing as free healthcare.
- yerdaddy, on 06/21/2009, -2/+11Not all articles about health care reform are worth a ***** either.
- Yazilliclick, on 06/21/2009, -2/+9He wasn't talking about emergency treatment, which is true that in the US it is required to give treatment to stabilize a person with a severe injury. However for non immediate life threatening issues there is no requirement for coverage not to mention people not being able to go in due to cost before something gets more serious.
- mikersx02, on 06/21/2009, -3/+9why? Are you incapable of taking care of yourself? If you feel that strongly for UHC- suggest ways that we can pay for it WITHOUT printing money.
- ridusoftyranny, on 06/21/2009, -6/+12How much competition do the post office and amtrak have? Both are government owned entities. You as a consumer have no choice on who can deliver your daily mail. And if you wanted to take a train across country, Amtrak is the only option.
A government plan would not be required maintain any cash reserve (the fed would just print more money to keep it going), while other insurance companies would be required to fund a reserve. - SammyJr, on 06/21/2009, -1/+6@diggduggjoe, so "smart shoppers" keep prices down.
Yeah, like your average "shopper" is qualified to argue with his doctor over his surgery or whether or not he needs medication. Your average "shopper" can also take time and visit several doctors for "quotes" on surgery. Oh wait, doctors don't do quotes or diagnostic tests for free?
We ain't cars, buddy. These things are very complicated. There's a very good reason why most doctors go to college for 10 years+ and have rigorous CME requirements. You think Joe Sixpack is even remotely qualified to debate treatment with someone like that? - SammyJr, on 06/21/2009, -0/+5When you buy aspirin at a drug store. does a $60k-$80k/year nurse bring it to you while you're sitting in a multimillion dollar facility while sitting on an expensive adjustable bed? Can you sue the drugstore if that aspirin ***** you up?
- ciphercore, on 06/21/2009, -4/+9"Countries where national healthcare works have smaller populations spread over smaller areas-doctor distribution is totally different."
Really ? Canada is larger than the states. Gun culture ? More Canadians per capita own a gun.
Watch this and tell me what the problem is ?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tentrillio ... - MooseOfReason, on 06/21/2009, -0/+5That would be a hell of a lot more than 47 million.
Outstanding student loans? Like the students in medical school training to be doctors?
Oops! - manlyandy, on 06/21/2009, -1/+6You're an idiot.
- offrdbandit, on 06/21/2009, -6/+11No. Actually we cant.
- GhostInAShell, on 06/21/2009, -7/+12Here's the question everyone here should be asking-how is nationalized healthcare even possible in this country?
People make a big ***** deal about insurance agencies (and rightfully so, IMO) but they neglect the costs of changing things:
Sweden, France, England, Canada, et. al are all small and homogenous countries with far lower rates of urban crime and no gun culture.
Countries where national healthcare works have smaller populations spread over smaller areas-doctor distribution is totally different.
These countries also have different growth and population demographics than the United States.
consider this, my fellow Diggers...
American labour estimates have forecast a shortage of doctors and health professionals for years to come
Baby boomers are soon to be retiring, and we have an aging population majority demographic
Malpractice has yet to see reform
National healthcare systems are financially killing Massachusetts and have ceased in Hawaii
Our population is also significantly less healthy as a whole, with obesity rates in the 60% range...
A standardized, nationalized electronic system will not happen in our lifetimes, period. Many individual healthcare SYSTEMS comprised of a handful of hospitals or less have been unable to do this for years. It won't happen.
When you couple these factors together, national healthcare is a nightmare from the get-go, quite honestly.
It seems like a pretty house built with no foundation. America is in a nightmare scenario. - inactive, on 06/21/2009, -2/+7The reason I think health care won't work isn't about communism, it's the complete opposite. I don't think it will work becuase the congress we have now is far in bed with the AMA and insurance companies that all it will be is a giant game of grab ass, letting the companies milk Uncle Sam's pockets which are far deeper then the average citizens.
- qerplonk, on 06/21/2009, -1/+5Thanks for the support, I appreciate it.
@tebriel1: It may not be a perfect analogy, but it works. When conveying a message, it's important to frame complex concepts into simpler, more familiar ideas that people can better understand.
I've yet to hear a counter argument from you on it though, so it stands. - stonebear, on 06/21/2009, -0/+4Interesting how lifestyle caused disease and the health care crisis are both caused by corporate greed.
- nullcodes, on 06/21/2009, -1/+5Why do taxpayers have to pay for the army when not everyone wants the service? How about police?
Heatlhcare is a public safety and national security issue, the government needs to protect the people from infectious agents and pathogens ... why is it that people are OK with the police and army not being privately run?
Government needs to pay or rebate $300 + cover the expense of a full medical checkup against infectious agents annually. And then cover the cost of treating/curing it. Guess what it's costing the economy far more to ignore it. The increased revenue from having a healthy population will more than pay for it ($50 billion a year is less than 5% of the military's budget). - ridusoftyranny, on 06/21/2009, -1/+5People only want healthcare if it's free. Which is why this crap won't fly.
- sdipaola, on 06/21/2009, -2/+6As an America living in Canada (Vancouver, now 8 years), the health care up here has issues but seems better that what I had in my Silicon Valley jobs in CA. They even poke fun of the US system as something they do not want, just like the US does to their system. No matter what it is a fairer system in that every has good healthcare and you don't have to panic if you lose your job. They also have this great setup where all doctors, 1 day a week are at generally open clinics in just about every strip mall, so for many things you just pop into local strip mall for a checkup. Some non emergency waiting lists but other than that I really like it. No HMO horror stories like I had in SV.
- inactive, on 06/21/2009, -3/+7California spends HALF it's budget on k-12 schools. And the results are lack luster, trust me. My high school had more office workers then teachers, the teachers that were there were pathetic, and the administration compensated for the lack of moral by running the place like a police state.The smart kids at my high school dropped out and went to community college.
And people wonder why I am not a fan of universal health care. I see no reason why the AMA and HMO's wont end up like the teachers unions, and create a system that benefits them above all else. - ciphercore, on 06/21/2009, -8/+12OMG.... yes down with universal health care for all.... what are you retarded ? IN Canada we have universal health care for basic needs. Break an arm ??? Worry about getting better... not how your are going to pay... Ohhh and yes we have private health care options for those who want it. Why do Canadians have a higher average life time for both men and women ? Why do so many Americans SNEAK into Canada for health care / meds ? You have to stop watching ***** FOX news. Learn to think for yourself. or just ***** right off!
Healthy Canadian - alais, on 06/21/2009, -6/+10Why does your precious candian healthcare system pay for candians to be treated in the U.S?
- inactive, on 06/21/2009, -3/+6probably. but they're already milking us.
- Paal, on 06/21/2009, -8/+11it's statements made by people like jayjayjoni that make me lose faith in humanity a little more, each and every day....
healthcare isn't FREE, we will ALL be paying for it
you want to tax employers, the ones that pay our paychecks
you want to tax the rich, the ones that are the employers
you want to tax the 'corporations' which is the SAME ***** THING YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT.
if you want healthcare, use the education that the government already paid for, and get yourself a job that gives you healthcare
NEARLY EVERY DAMN STARBUCKS EMPLOYEE IN AMERICA QUALIFIES FOR HEALTH CARE. <- Are you having trouble finding a starbucks? - coderukus, on 06/21/2009, -2/+5Why is it that I can get a bottle of 200 aspirin for less than $10 at my local drug store, and the hospital charges $15-20 each?
- inactive, on 06/21/2009, -4/+7it's the peasant mentality. they feel they need their rich overlords to tell them when to piss.
- mikersx02, on 06/21/2009, -4/+7How does Canada afford Universal Health Care? Their tax rates are comparable to what we pay in the USA (obviously not exactly the same) The big difference is you dont have to worry about a huge defense budget because you know we would have your back if you were attacked.
- stukoulak, on 06/21/2009, -4/+7Why is it that I pay $20 for an aspirin in a Dallas, TX hospital when I could get the same aspirin for around $15 for a hospital in Fargo, ND...that just makes no sense to me
- Ne007, on 06/21/2009, -9/+12Why should health care be different than anything else? Cost of living and getting health care professionals to certain areas costs money.
- ousthouse, on 06/21/2009, -3/+6This is true for education as well... some of the country's worst schools spend the most money per student.
- offrdbandit, on 06/21/2009, -1/+4So much for that whole "95% of Americans" thing, then right?
- collution, on 06/21/2009, -2/+5@shdwfx
That's a hell of a stretch of generalizations. Especially the exercise one, I'm almost 100% that isn't true. - suldar, on 06/21/2009, -3/+6Healthcare is a basic human right in my opinion. Every single person in the U.S.A. should be able to receive whatever medical treatment they need to be healthy. Other countries have already made this a reality and it's been very successful. We need to make this happen here now.
- dhughes, on 06/21/2009, -4/+7 Because so many Canadians use it, are able to use it, that it's overwhelmed at times and sometimes people with heart problems are sent to the US if they can't be treated in time, some people form the US may be sent here also, although I'm not 100% sure about that.
In the US you don't have that option to wait, no money no hospital, you just die. - GhostInAShell, on 06/21/2009, -0/+3America has more guns than Canadians, and more urban areas with easy access to guns and socioeconomically disparate groups. Just because there are more guns "per capita" means nothing. Look at the population difference-averages are ridiculous in this case. There is no established GUN CULTURE in Canada.. There are guns, but not a CULTURE built around them like here. We have the NRA, we have a far greater military history and tradition of militias, we have cowboy movies, we have gangbangers. Incomparable. So don't try with a stupid per capita average.
Canada doesn't have nearly the same equivalent of the baby boomer generation, nowhere near the levels of violent crime, far smaller urban african populations, far fewer hispanics.
Canada's population density is totally different to ours, which is an impacting factor.
Both are not necessary conditions to my statement, could just be one or the other. Homogeneity and smaller population, typically less density. Just because Canada doesn't adhere to one of these doesn't mean it's the end-all-be-all. Want to address the rest of my critique? - eir574, on 06/21/2009, -1/+4"We do also have regular medicaid for non emergency necessities, which is readily available for people making less then a certain amount. "
Given that people are suffering and dying for lack of ability to pay for treatment, that's apparently not enough. It doesn't cover everyone who needs help (i.e. people who make more than that certain amount of money, but who still can't afford halfway decent health insurance, if they can afford any at all). My parents were in that position for a little while. My father is a dentist, and had to give up his practice due to a latex allergy (that's life threatening; it's not an issue of comfort).
With his job went the family's health insurance plan, so he had to sign us up for a ridiculously expensive individual plan that covered only a certain percentage of catastrophic care. (A pre-existing condition drove those prices up quite a bit.) While on that plan, my mother had uterine cancer, which ended up costing my parents a great deal of money even with their insurance plan. Since my father still had some small amount of income from disability insurance, we did not even come close to qualifying for government assistance of any kind.
For reasons I'm not completely aware of, that plan was canceled (so shocking, I know, that an insurance company would find a reason to jettison you for having dared to use your insurance). Now, however, my mother was a cancer survivor, and despite the fact that her cancer had never made it past the uterine lining and hence had been completely cured by a hysterectomy, no insurance company would touch her.
What exactly were they supposed to do in that situation? They had the ability to pay, but just not an exorbitant amount, and they didn't qualify for government programs. If you think no one falls through the cracks or that their story is in any way unique, you're quite wrong. - nullcodes, on 06/21/2009, -1/+4On talk radio, the claim is that blacks have reduced the life expectancy of the US making it look like the US is much worse in life expectancy ranking than it is. It's a false claim that still won't put the US even in the top 20. So leaving aside countries like Japan, UK, France etc. how is that Jordan, which is a fairly poor and made up of Arabs .. how is it that even they have higher life expectancy over there than even the white population (the neocons have been insisting that blacks be left out of the statistics for skewing the numbers) in the US?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ ... - SammyJr, on 06/21/2009, -0/+3The DMV is ***** wonderful. I'm in and out in less than 5 minutes usually and I know I'm not going to get a big bill at some point.
- pinchduck, on 06/21/2009, -4/+7@tebriel1: This is exactly what happened in Britain after WWII and, more recently, in Hawaii. It isn't a dumb analogy, it is spot on.
- Paal, on 06/21/2009, -2/+4I'm only going to respond with a point that has very little nuance, and therefore fits fine within the constraints of digg.
Why the hell shouldn't a young athletic customer pay less for their healthcare???? They stay fit and active and INVEST in their own well being. They take time out of their lives to keep themselves in good shape, and society as a whole ends up having to pay less for them over their lifetime.
We already take care of those unable to care for themselves. Stop acting like we don't. - DirtyVicar, on 06/21/2009, -8/+10It's astonishing how people spend their free time on Digg advocating the positions of the insurance industry.
- mikersx02, on 06/21/2009, -7/+9If you want Universal Healthcare... move to France, Canada, or any other area that has it. If you dont want to move, then get a job and pay for it yourself. Its called CAPITALISM and INDIVIDUALISM. Stop depending on the Govt for everything.
- Yazilliclick, on 06/21/2009, -0/+2There are always people who disagree or don't like something, not really useful as a comparison. If you hadn't picked up on the fact that people like to bitch about anything from your time on the net then you'll never clue in.
- ZenMojo, on 06/21/2009, -0/+2That's what strikes me the most. All Canadians have GOOD healthcare no matter what. Lose your job? Still have GOOD healthcare.
So those arguing that they have good healthcare at a really high price and get what they pay for. Maybe, maybe not. But Canada insures that you will get what you need no matter what. - nullcodes, on 06/21/2009, -0/+2Let's be clear, health care isn't a fundamental human right .. but then neither is national defense or a highway system.
- Yazilliclick, on 06/21/2009, -2/+4We pay nowhere near the same amount as the US. The US spends almost twice as much per capita that Canada does. They pay the most in the world.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307ot ... - stonebear, on 06/21/2009, -0/+2And if your alternative was no healthcare?
- inactive, on 06/21/2009, -3/+5Or.....raise income taxes and sales taxes.
- inactive, on 06/21/2009, -0/+2People expect to live forever now. It used to be that people smoked like chimneys, drank like fish, ate steak all damn day, and dropped dead on the golf course at age 60. Not so much anymore. If anything, we could improve healthcare costs by encouraging an unhealthy lifestyle.
- guyincognitoo, on 06/21/2009, -0/+2That's a worthless paper, it doesn't say why the costs are going up. Let me fill it in for you.
"When in practice, Doctor's engage in defensive medicine to protect themselves against a lawsuit. They perform tests and provide treatments that they would not otherwise perform merely to protect themselves against the risk of possible litigation. The survey revealed that over 76% are concerned that malpractice litigation has hurt their ability to provide quality care to patients."
Because of the resulting legal fear:
· 79% said that they had ordered more tests than they would, based only on professional judgment of what is medically needed, and 91% have noticed other physicians ordering more tests;
· 74% have referred patients to specialists more often than they believed was medically necessary;
· 51% have recommended invasive procedures such as biopsies to confirm diagnoses more often than they believed was medically necessary; and
· 41% said that they had prescribed more medications, such as antibiotics, than they would based only on their professional judgment, and
. 73% have noticed other doctors similarly prescribing excessive medications.
From page 4 of this:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/daltcp/reports/litrefm.pdf
That is a ***** of wasted money and resources. -
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