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64 Comments
- anubis2night, on 04/04/2009, -1/+49what they didn't tell you was that to reinforce the placebo effect they had to charge the patient the same amount as those that actually had the surgery
- rvandy, on 04/04/2009, -2/+38You still have to have the surgery. You don't get a placebo effect if you don't do anything.
- HappyScrappy, on 04/05/2009, -1/+23This is just a particular type of problem and knee surgery. It doesn't mean that there's no point to all knee surgeries.
- miata, on 04/05/2009, -1/+22Remember folks, this is arthroscopy, not total knee replacement.
Arthroscopy == scope in your knees and smooth out the rough edges.
Total knee replacement == replace the cartilage with synthetics.
The former doesn't do squat.
The latter does - boothash, on 04/05/2009, -2/+22This is from 2002... a lot can change in the medical world in 7 years.
- MacEnvy, on 04/05/2009, -2/+21The headline and summary are inaccurate. The study only covered those who were trying to get relief for osteoarthritis, not those who had worn out knees or other problems.
The study does NOT say that knee surgery doesn't work, it says that people who were getting arthroscopic débridement to alleviate symptoms of osteoarthritis may not be getting what they signed up for.
Buried as inaccurate. The headline and summary don't even come close to telling the whole truth and insinuates that knee surgery in general isn't helpful, when it is for the vast majority of problems. - BigBalledOX, on 04/05/2009, -2/+17Yeah, ***** the New England Journal of Medicine, what a ***** rag that piece of ***** is!
*****. - beaverfetus, on 04/05/2009, -4/+13what freaking IRB approved the placebo surgery group? I'd say it's pretty unethical to do a non therapeutic skin incision for anything. MRSA anyone?
- elnerdo, on 04/05/2009, -5/+13Dugg because this is the first time I have ever seen a legitimate study on the front page of Digg, without any trite from any sensational journalism.
A+. - chanstheorem, on 04/05/2009, -2/+10Some internet article? This is the New England Journal of Medicine, one of the most respected medical journals in the world...
- beaverfetus, on 04/05/2009, -0/+6apparently this study actually started quite a bit of controversy, if you want to read more here is a direct link to a pdf http://www.litbang.depkes.go.id/ethics/knepk/kegia ...
- triscuitbiscuit, on 04/05/2009, -0/+5Actually that happens a lot. Sham surgeries are routine. And there really isn't any ethical violation because prior to the study, the researchers must state to subjects that they may receive a sham surgery. They have done sham surgeries for much riskier types of operations including parkinson's where they open up the skull.
Also, many times the sham surgeries have proven to be better than the actual surgery! It still confuses many researchers, but some believe that the process of creating incisions/going in without doing anything relieves pressure or moves things around resulting in the betterment of the patient. - GodsTwin, on 04/05/2009, -2/+7It doesn't appeal to the mediocre and uninteresting such as yourself?
- ostracize, on 04/05/2009, -1/+5Placebos are MUCH more effective nowadays.
- tacojohn48, on 04/05/2009, -0/+4You have watched one too many episodes of King of the Hill.
- Samueul, on 04/05/2009, -0/+3Every single person I have ever spoken too has complained that their knee felt no better or even worse after getting arthroscopy on it....
- MacEnvy, on 04/05/2009, -4/+7Yeah, except for the inaccurate headline and summary which insinuate something the journal article doesn't say.
DOH! - soccerman90, on 04/05/2009, -1/+4you should ask them for a placebo surgery instead ;)
- d03boy, on 04/05/2009, -0/+3Because none of us have read it.
- NegativeDigg, on 04/05/2009, -1/+4I would be like WTF! I want my money back.
- elnerdo, on 04/05/2009, -0/+3"Conclusions In this controlled trial involving patients with osteoarthritis of the knee, the outcomes after arthroscopic lavage or arthroscopic débridement were no better than those after a placebo procedure."
To be fair, it's a pretty close paraphrase. It would be accurate to say "knee surgery" instead of listing the actual surgeries, as a summary, and it would be accurate to describe a placebo as "fake or pretend knee surgery", and with those two changes, you've made the digg title. - reeds1999, on 04/05/2009, -0/+3I am certian it makes the bottom line of the for profit medical industry feel better.
- Rockyn, on 04/04/2009, -3/+5I'm calling to cancel my surgery scheduled for monday!
- Dr0x, on 04/05/2009, -0/+2Although this study wasn't conducted very recently it's findings were actually quite substantial in the field of psychology even though it wasn't necessarily the intended target. This study basically displayed that the placebo effect can occur even in situations where surgery may be required. This article was brought up in a health psychology class I took last year and I still find it incredible that we can trick ourselves into getting better just by believing we received a treatment that is supposed to help.
- RiMac, on 04/05/2009, -0/+2I got my wrist scoped 2 years ago and I don't really think it did anything. If anything it might be worse :(.
- AlpineStars777, on 04/05/2009, -1/+3Just shows you the power of the mind.
- nem0, on 04/05/2009, -1/+3I'd be pretty pissed if I was one of the patients who received the fake surgery.
- Cogboy, on 04/05/2009, -0/+2I would guess they get the same placebo with less physical trauma than the real surgery.
- anubis2night, on 04/05/2009, -0/+2was just a joke
- d03boy, on 04/05/2009, -0/+2I know quite a few people who get this surgery... for no reason apparently.
- Rivetgeek, on 04/05/2009, -0/+2Total knee replacement is more than replacing cartilage, they replace the joint itself with a synthetic joint.
- Karmashock, on 04/05/2009, -0/+2Well, what seems to be happening is that the rehabilitation therapy is what works where as the surgery isn't doing anything.
- Nudar, on 04/05/2009, -0/+2Obviously you have to sign up beforehand and know that you may actually get a fake surgery. It's not as if they didn't know they were in a study.
- adamk0310, on 04/11/2009, -0/+2Yes. He's trying to be sarcastic.
- ApolloXLII, on 04/05/2009, -0/+1i've seen maybe a total of 5 in their entirety
- ac2u, on 06/19/2009, -0/+1courage wolf?
- Dr0x, on 04/05/2009, -0/+1Pretty much any IRB would approve it as long as whoever was conducting the study received informed consent from the subjects. My guess is that the participants received the surgery at a major discount or possibly even for free as a incentive for taking part in the study.
- eatasandwich, on 04/05/2009, -0/+1Google van nes rotationplasty. Even better, do an image search.
My first ever (and almost "only") digg submission was about this procedure.
I used to work with a surgeon who performed the operation. - meyert11, on 04/05/2009, -2/+3Mista is right. My mom got total knee replacement. It took about 4-6 months of rehab and she is now walking around like everyone else. That stuff does work.
- Archer007, on 04/05/2009, -0/+1http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/Story?id ...
- chaoswings, on 04/05/2009, -1/+2I think this only works with particular minor knee problems, it obviously does not work in a serious cases.
- d03boy, on 04/05/2009, -1/+2If anyone bothered to open the article they'd already know that. I don't think they need to be reminded.
- Deadity, on 04/05/2009, -1/+1Yeah! dugg.
- Brownspond, on 06/20/2009, -0/+0I had TKR this year, by a totally non communicative hothead, who was on the S+N website as approved. It got infected 3 weeks later and had an I&D done. Now for the bone scan and results....and on and on...+no job, no ins and no fix heading my way.
Keep the one happy soccer ball person story....way too many of us now crippled by a "secret club" of butchers, soon to be replaced by stem cell stuff......Hooray and good riddens! - DrSamuelDyer, on 04/27/2009, -0/+0Osteoarthritis Education-Although placebo is very powerful in clinical trials and interestingly the placebo rates average about 30% across all diseases, I think the most interesting point here is that of patient education and understanding. It has been well studied and documented that most patients do not fully understand their disease which results in patient outcomes like this.
In the disease of Osteoarthritis-Does a patient’s understanding of Osteoarthritis differ from the established medical body of knowledge regarding OA? Most would likely say yes, and research has shown most patient’s understanding of OA differs from the medical model of OA. But what is interesting is this incongruity between a patient’s understanding of OA and the medical model will likely result in less successful treatment outcomes and a lessened quality of life as in the surgical study. I have just created a website based on my clinical trials and research. If you or someone else you know would like to know more about patient education on OA see: www.IHaveOsteoarthritis.com - d03boy, on 04/05/2009, -1/+1Actually age is a time span.
- cliffzdude, on 04/05/2009, -1/+1Those I know who had their knees "scoped" as they say didn't do so due to arthritis, which is what the study was about - arthritis - rather my friends and neighbors had damage that needed repair. Without fail, they can move like normal people again. Me? I got to start playing hoops again, as I had the procedure to repair/minimize damage. Actually I don't think I've met anybody who has experienced a "failed" scope to repair damage, and among my group of fellow middle aged ballers and co-workers there are indeed a few.
- Rain12913, on 04/05/2009, -1/+1I'm currently taking a class called Behavioral Medicine and during our week on the Placebo Effect we watched a movie that looked like it was from the late 80's/early 90's about a study identical to this one (perhaps smaller in sample size). Why is this still news in 2009?
- Dr0x, on 04/05/2009, -1/+1First off, everyone going into the study was aware that they may not be receiving the actual surgery seeing as it would be against the law in the U.S. to perform any study without informed consent. My guess is that participants in the study likely received the surgery for free or at least received a hefty discount or else no one would have agreed to take part in the study in the first place. Also, by law, once the study was completed all participants had to be debriefed, at which time they would have been told whether they received the actual surgery or not and refunded any money to the subjects who received the fake surgery.
- ApolloXLII, on 04/05/2009, -3/+3best way to fix this problem would be to attach their feet directly to their knee joints. actually i have no idea if that would help, but it would still be funny as hell. therefore i approve.
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