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74 Comments
- guytoronto, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15Influenza and pneumonia are two totally different diseases.
Last week I baked a cake, then got into a car accident. I will never bake a cake again! - guytoronto, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Obviously you have no clue how vaccines work.
And what about people who's immune systems are so weak, they can't fight off a full-blown infection?
Thousands of people die every year from the flu. How many would have lived if they got the vaccines? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"tainted with mercury and other carcinogens"
Do you have proof? - MarkHarrison, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7> The government should not waste their money developing flu shots every year [...]
> Please, correct me if I am wrong.
If you want to understand what happens when governments don't do flu vaccinations at all, then go on to the scientific paper that the article above links to.
When not enough people are vaccinated, then diseases spread geometrically - a large part of the reason that YOU don't get the flu is because those surrounding you haven't got it to pass it on.
Vaccination stops diseases spreading to the "tipping point" at which they become epidemic or pandemic.
I realise that it's not you making them, but I hear comments like "I don't need to get my baby vaccinated - I feed him well and he's got a strong immune system" scare the hell out of me.
This really is an area on which professionals agree absolutely - vaccination works. Even articles like the one referenced in the Digg link actually say that (ignore what the jounalist who wrote the dumbed-down version said - read the real research it links to.) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7...and thats why you are not a doctor nor have any medical nor scientific background.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Evidence of effectiveness is not dying from the flu strains you were vaccinated for...
That is like saying there is no need to change the oil in my car because there is no evidence that it keeps my engine running correctly. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Yes, you are wrong.
The flu goes around the world in cycles and there are only a select set of possible mutations for the next cycle. They take most likely candidates and create a vaccine for them. The vaccine is administered before the actual virus will possibly infect you. If they chose incorrectly then you will get a full blown flu when it comes, if not then you will be protected as your memory cells exist for the protein coat they were exposed to.
The flu is quite deadly! - cool4u2view, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"No, I'm not a doctor nor medical biologist."
Well I am a biologist,
..and I can tell you that getting a vaccine and combatting the virus the so-called "natural" way are nearly the same thing with regards to the immune respone. The difference is that with a vaccine you don't get the viral genetic material. The second time your body sees that strain your body is ready for it. Your immune system is build up better with the vaccine, because the vaccine contains protein coats from multiple strains. Those who get vaccines are therefore in better shape immune-wise than those who do not. - elipabst, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@MemeWarrior "Not to mention the fact that the vaccine supply is known to be tainted with mercury and other carcinogens."
It's not "tainted" with mercury. Thimerasol (which contains ethyl mercury) is used as a preservative in a variety of vaccines. There have been a number of studies looking at thimerasol and various things like autism, but the latest one I've seen was a large study (I think in New England Journal of Medicine) which didn't increase your risk of anything. Also they are now making thimerasol (and preservative)-free flu vaccines. The nasal-spray version doesn't contain it either. - Four20, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8@cid
and refuse modern medicine?
do that and when you're 60 your immune system will be tired and less responsive
modern medicine is what keeps us alive for 80-100 years - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Why should ANY person wish to get flu symptoms at all?
Puke and diarrhea are not my favorite things... with a flu shot I don't have to go through that at all. Yes, my immune system will fight it, but not without symptoms. A flu shot allows me to not have symptoms. No Fever, No Diarrhea, No Puking.
Thank god for the flu shot! - Swift2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It's appalling, frankly, the level of medical illiteracy that's going around. There's a time lag in vaccines, and it may be that flu vaccines aren't covering us as well when there's so much jet travel going on. But the restriction of flu vaccine to the very young and the old -- over 55 here in California -- is based on medical evidence, not political. It is less worthwhile for young and healthy adults. Aren't they voters? Since even the normal influenza kills 30,000 Americans every season, I think it's well worth while to continue the program.
The real politics here is with the handing out of the vaccine contracts: private industry doesn't want to make vaccines, because the costs are high and the research is never-ending. So they get government money, and enough of it to guarantee a profit. It's funny, the GOP has no problem giving tax breaks to oil companies, but they had a big problem about flu vaccines. - TheSolomon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yes. It's a coincidence. In fact, that's the precise definition of a coincidence.
Think of it in terms of health insurance. Maybe you don't have health insurance, and *coincidentally* you never get sick. You go through the years and think "why pay for health insurance? I never get sick." Then one day you're walking down the street and get run over by a bus. You're lucky enough that the hospital will take you in without insurance, but when you get home you find you have thousands and thousands of dollars of medical bills. Health insurance is *most* important for those times that you would never predict.
Vaccines are exactly the same way. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to go through your life without ever getting a vaccine *and* never getting sick. *Lucky* is the operative word here. More likely, however, you'll one day come across the virus, become infected, and suffer through one of the worst illnesses of your life (if you survive). Keep in mind, when people say "Oh, I have the flu," almost always they just have a really bad cold. Influenza makes people unable to get out of bed, and lasts several days. If you thought you had the flu, and were back to work a couple days later, you had a cold.
I prefer *not* to play Russian roulette with my body. If there's a vaccine that gives me a better chance of fighting off a nasty illness, of *course* I'd take it. It doesn't just help me, it also prevents me from turning into a germ spewing machine that could infect others--people who may not be as able to fight the illness and survive. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The real question is have you ever gotten the flu... Don't lie.
- toconnor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@bobothn
"unless you are 60 years old or older"
or under 10, or pregnant, or chronically ill, or live with someone that is any of the above - cool4u2view, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Bren: You do know that when you get a flu shot it's exposed to the same and more pathogen protein coats than it would be exposed to normaly, right? Therefore by your own logic it is beneficial to get a flu shot.
Question is why not? - xenocrates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@bobothn
"unless you are 60 years old or older"
OR work in a hospital around a bunch of sick people. I'd rather feel a little crappy for a day due to a flu shot than feel like run-over dog ***** for a week because I decided that I'd forgo it in preference for the "natural way."
There's a reason healthcare workers usually get them for free.
Oh, plus all the things toconnor said. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9Flu vaccines are very effective. Whoever said they are not is pretty much a prick.
- theWaterboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Certain forms of influenza affect people who have a strong, healthy immune system. What happens is that the immune response is so strong that ultimately that is what kills the person.
That is the case with avian flu. So be cautious before you totally avoid flu shots. - entro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You know I actually just got my second flu shot in two years today... and me and my gf were both on the fence about it. Last year I took it I felt like I got sick from it... (which may have just been my own imagination)... I'm generally a pretty sickly person suffering from at least one or two major illnesses a year. Last year, nothing. This year I feel completely fine after the shot with barely any pain in the arm this time...
I had to laugh at this year's stickers that basically said "You can thank me later... I received my flu shot today." pointing to MarkHarrison's point above the flu spreading less because less people around your area actually don't have it.
I've worked at a college for about six years... kids who party hard have notoriously low tolerance for bugs... and probably have even more notorious hygiene habits... I've already got to deal with year round allergies due to my pets... the last thing I need is to be miserable on top of that with a fever... and still be the idiot that can't stay home long enough from work for it to make a difference.
there's alot of fear revolving around the concept of vaccinations... if you search it on the web it reads like a horror novel... they also say tofu causes altheimer's (http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html) and if thats the case I'm doubly screwed.
at any rate, I'm putting my two cents in for get yourself shot... and if you are afraid of needles... you don't have to look. - priegog, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Damn, you must be Wolverine!
/sarcasm
Now, really, what is it you're implying? that vaccines CAUSE the diseases?
Idiot. - domukin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Vaccines work extremely well, this is the kind of crap that makes people not vaccinate themselves and/or their kids and then guess what? They get sick and die of totally preventable disease. The flu itself won't kill most of us, but it will decline the severity of the disease in the immune competent, and that is worthwhile to a LOT of people.
Also, getting the flu shot every year will increase your total immunity to the virus, since its made from different strands (it mutates all the time). - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"There's a time lag in vaccines, and it may be that flu vaccines aren't covering us as well when there's so much jet travel going on."
You should note, too, that vaccines are often made for strains that don't exist yet but are highly probable mutations in current strains. There is little if any lag in these. Advances in genetics have done wonders for vaccines. - cool4u2view, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The additives in vaccines have NEVER been proven to harm anyone in the amounts present. Until such proof arises these additives will continue to be added in order to improve shelf life.
As BillyBoobs said below you should stop spreading FUD MemeWarrior - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Please cite any such study as I'd be interested to read it for laughs.
- cidlpn69, on 10/12/2007, -11/+13Very interesting article....and I never get a flu shot. Not worth it...plus I let my immune system take care of any "bugs" I get. That's what it's there for.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3FUD stands for fear, uncertainty, and doubt. These are the things in which you are spreading by doubting the efficacy of vaccines.
- RandoFernando, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2For not testing, I believe the thinking is that if it's bacterial, antibiotics would do the trick. If it's viral, then you have to ride it out.
- elipabst, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@MemeWarrior: "Feel free to ask any vaccinologist if flu shots contain any ethylene oxide or dioxane, formaldehyde or thimerisol"
While I think it's important to educate yourself about what is actually in these vaccines, you also have to put things in a frame of reference. The one vaccine that does contain formaldehyde (Fluarix) has less than 50ug of formaldehyde in it, which is less than the average amount of formaldehyde in a single cigarette. You can debate about whether that is an acceptable risk, but the kind of fear-mongering on some of those websites isn't doing anyone any good - cool4u2view, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"momsagainstmercury.org"
Wow, that sounds like a really scientifically accurate website.
Instead, do you have a specific published scientific research paper? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2How so?
- spac3m0nk3y, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I work at a medical institution and every doctor here recommends a flu shot for those who are at risk, such as myself working around people who come in sick. The whole idea of the flu shot is to build up your immunity just in case you come in contact with the virus. If every doctor here recommends it and the place gives them to us employees for free, then I'm getting one, end of story. If, in ten years it's discovered that the flu shot causes cancer, oh well, it seems like every week something that once thought safe is found to cause cancer. You just can't win for trying, so does that mean I stop trying? No. I got the flu shot last week and I had no ill-effects, besides soreness in the injection site which lasted all of a day.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I call *****..
- MarkHarrison, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Ouch - the British Medical Journal article linked to said something rather different from what the journalist who wrote that link said.
The BMJ paper seemed to say that was very, very, worthwhile giving them out to some targetted groups. However, it went on to say that the groups actually receiving the vaccine are picked on factors other than medical effectiveness. (Political lobbying, anyone?)
Bandolier, a part of the University of Oxford carries out statistical review of published studies, and finds that an awful lot of "medical research" is bunkum... however, it comes down strongly in favour of vaccination for the over-65s, based on studies of hundreds of thousands of patients.
See http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band102/b102-8.html for more detail.
Seriously unimpressed by the way the Digged article sensationalises something - and in the process misrepresents some real research on which real lives and deaths depend. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It's not that you don't agree, it's that your facts specifically regarding flu vaccines are incorrect.
- spraguep, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5"Jefferson said he was surprised to see such a large gap between vaccination campaign policy and evidence of its effectiveness."
$$$$$ - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2You don't have cancer yet either. Because it hasn't happened in t he past doesn't mean it won't happen in the future.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2To put it simply, I hate when people spread FUD without some sort of proof. The fact is that vaccines save lives.
- RandoFernando, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The times I have gotten the flu were the years I didn't get the vaccine.
- lintmonkey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3The main problem is not in single dose vaccines. The problem arises (or arose, around 1993) when they mixed multiple vaccines into one shot or combined multiple vaccines at the same appointment for a child whose brain was in the early stages of development.
This is probably the cause for the huge spike in cases of autism in recent years, and while the CDC, FDA, etc. are not admitting any wrongdoing, the vaccination schedule has been relaxed and vaccine makers are now making vaccines that lack thimerosal.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7395411/deadly_immunity/ - lunasunshine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Like he said ^ you are comparing Bacterial (usually) infection of the lungs with a Viral infection (of the whole body ~ GI, lungs, muscles, etc)
You got pneumonia b/c you didn't get the pnemococcal vaccine, siily :) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Now, if only you have a flu vaccine you wouldn't get symptoms at all... You would get over it without ever knowing you had it.
- lunasunshine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0and i am doctor of pharmacy.
cool4you2view is dead on.
"Those who get vaccines are therefore in better shape immune-wise than those who do not." - MemeWarrior, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@ elipabst
I don't know if those sites contain a whole lot of fear-mongering. To be honest I just grabbed them as the first couple of results off of a google search as evidence of information that exists in the public domain about the additives in vaccines. If they are fear-mongering then by all means discount them and do your own research and draw your own conclusions. I made my own decision regarding this matter years ago and did my own research and the time. Forgive me if I don't recollect all the specific details of the information I found at the time.
Your comment about comparing the formaldehyde content in vaccines to cigarettes struck me as being rather ironic. I don't mean to sound condescending, but couldn't you have found something better than cigarettes to compare them to? They're not exactly the paragon of healthy habits after all. ;-) - moracity, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2In other news, smoking prevention is pointless because, hey, everyone dies anyway.
- MemeWarrior, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3@ cool4u2view
I don't need to produce any scientific papers on the subject because it's a known fact. Feel free to ask any vaccinologist if flu shots contain any ethylene oxide or dioxane, formaldehyde or thimerisol. They will tell you there are. Many will argue that they are in such small quantities that they do do not pose a heath risk, but there is some legitimate debate going on about this. The point being that the public at large is not aware of this debate and they should be. Digg me down all you want, but it does not change the fact that there are mercury and cancer causing chemicals in the vaccine supply. I choose not to be vaccinated for these reasons with full knowledge that I won't receive any benefits they may or may not provide. I'm not saying that no one should take a flu shot. If you think the benefits outweigh the risks then by all means go out and get your flu shot. But don't digg me down just because you've convinced yourself that aren't any reasons someone should abstain from getting one. - MemeWarrior, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I know what FUD stands for, I'm a designer and I work with marketing people all the time. But your loose application of the term could be used in just about any debate where one side does not agree with the other. It's intellectually dishonest to label someone as spreading FUD just because they do not agree with you. That kind of thinking advocates people accepting blind obedience towards anything calling itself authority, which I cannot stand.
- lesnadyk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The influenze vaccine program is not pointless, it generates huge revenue for Chiron and other big pharmas. Those big pharmas employ people, pay taxes, and generally contribute to the economy. Just like how the wild goose chase or an AIDS/HIV cure has ensured decades of continuous funding for scientists all over the world.
- OdinThor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Pointless vaccines? When will this type of evil originating from George W. Bush come to an end?
- MemeWarrior, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1cool4u2view,
"Until such proof arises these additives will continue to be added in order to improve shelf life."
Fine, but the fact is that there hasn't been enough research into the subject of additives in vaccines. While there is plenty of evidence that ethylene oxide, dioxane, formaldehyde and thimerisol are harmful. Conscientiously objecting to vaccines with additives is a personal choice and does not affect anyone elses health. So why all the hostility? Also, please try and use the term FUD correctly. It's a marketing term used when trying to cast a competitors product in a poor light. I'm not trying to push any kind of homeopathic or 'alternative medicine' solution to replace vaccinations. -
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