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- OfoarHeffinsake, on 10/20/2009, -48/+338But Anti-Vaxxers have Mommy Instincts. Surely that trumps scientific understanding built upon decades of research, observation, and experimentation. Jenny McCarthy can just FEEL that vaccines gave her son (who, by the way, Jenny originally claimed had magical indigo child powers like telekinesis - it's true, look it up) autism. Science needs to shut the hell up and get out of the way so folks like McCarthy can cure autism by doing absolutely nothing to stop autism and instead just getting a lot of innocent people sick or killed from perfectly preventable diseases.
Is /s necessary?
Anti-vaxxers scare me, because they seem so indicative of the kind of arguments that perpetuate all psuedo-sciences, falsehoods, and conspiracy theories, only they've managed to actually get their ***** into people's heads. The average person in America has to actually spend time questioning whether or not vaccines are safe.
VACCINES ERADICATED POLIO, and yet they're sitting around wondering if a vaccine is really going to give them autism. It's horrifying.
I remember in one of the recent Apatow movies (Knocked Up, I think) the wife of one of the main character's lists a bunch of things she worries about for her child because she is a good mother. The list is full of things that a normal mother should be worried about, but then "I worry about getting our kids vaccinated" was on the list. That's how ubiquitous this absolute nonsense is. It's mainstream. And while there are other mainstream psuedosciences (homeopathy) there's not one that I can think of that is so incredibly dangerous to not just the people who aren't getting vaccinated, but society in general.
People have already died because of this lunacy, and more people will continue to die because of it. It's stupidity in its purest form.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go burn down the observatory. - anonymousmedic, on 10/20/2009, -31/+201We're a generation that has become enthralled on the opinions and falsehoods of idiotic talking heads like Dr. Oz, Dr. Phil, Oprah, Susanne Summers, and Jenny McCarthy; people whom the only knowledge they have of the topic they are talking about comes from people who write books on "Indigo Children" and MERCURY IS BAD NO MATTER WHAT THE FORM!; and that they come to us through the TV screen. These are people who, without laws preventing it, would sell us snake oil claiming it cured cancer and shined your floors. You know why? Because it happened up to 100 years ago! But, we live in a culture that values nutshots and physical sports far above that of intellectualism and research. In our culture, being a knoweldgeable person is bad, which is a totally sad state. According to these talking heads, every scientist is an evil, baby murdering autism machine who won't spread the real truth because they get a paycheck from BIG PHARMA!
Seriously. You people are devolving the human race. - douggmc, on 10/21/2009, -11/+101What part about infectious diseases don't you understand. Some ***** that thinks their child is going to get autism from life saving vaccines .... chooses not to get them. Then said *****'s snotty little brat gets a disease that we eradicated 100 years ago and passes it around to my kid (who has a weak immune system for other reasons).
How is this not my business? - Dregganaut, on 10/21/2009, -3/+89.....
Actually, I've heard vaccines are pretty good at stopping pandemics. - SirBruce, on 10/21/2009, -23/+102I used to be more Conservative. I'm all for individual liberty and free choice and self-reliance. But when people make bad choices like *this* that put all the rest of us at risk, they must be stopped. So I guess that makes me a Socialist now, because yes Virginia, sometimes the experts *do* know better than you do.
- freshyill, on 10/21/2009, -14/+88Don't spread easily preventable diseases, you dumb mother *****.
- jhbarr, on 10/21/2009, -4/+73Yup, Beck and Limbaugh are such brain-dead Dems...oh, wait.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2009 ... - Brak710101, on 10/21/2009, -14/+79The whole argument of "my child has had no shots and isn't getting sick" is flawed.
It's a perfect example of herd immunity at work, nothing more. - prompel, on 10/20/2009, -23/+81If only there were a vaccine against stupidity. Oh wait, guess what would happen then?
- christoast, on 10/21/2009, -15/+71I'm sure a lot of diggers are fans of Bill Maher, I was too until a few weeks ago when he basically came out as a conspiracy nut. He's pretty much telling people not to get vaccines, it's unethical and it's ignorant.
Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5DLf1Qt78
What an idiot. Guess bill doesn't "believe" in science. - Dregganaut, on 10/21/2009, -21/+77sigh.
Yes, so then we can have a critical mass of unvaccinated people who will form the base of a pandemic.
Why don't Americans stop wanking off over "freedom of choice" and just do what's right? - Dregganaut, on 10/21/2009, -7/+59Well I care because I might have an infant that hasn't reached the age of vaccination, or I might have a weakened immune system from another sickness, or I might be one of the 1-2% of vaccinated adults for which the vaccine might fail.
- wissler, on 10/21/2009, -16/+66Government is talking about forced vaccinations. The natural response to that kind of talk is distrust. If they don't want the distrust, then they should remove any talk about forcing people to take them. And they should remove collusion of government and Big Pharma, who should not be exempt from lawsuits if they inject you with something harmful.
- Purplekat, on 10/21/2009, -5/+51A while back, a nurse I knew on an online forum had a child die of whooping cough because his parents were anti-vaccers and he hadn't been vaccinated. She tried to save this child's life and watched him die needlessly, came home filled with rage and despair, and vented on a forum where she posted. The anti-vacc crowd mobbed her, and she came to me for help backing her argument up, because she'd seen me hold my own in thorny debates before. I think she was really hoping to change some minds, although I mostly went in to troll idiots -- anyone who can be a rabid anti-vaccer after reading her OP is too self-centered to listen to reason. I wanted to see what would happen, though, when I threw some cognitive dissonance in their faces.
Over the course of the thread, I cited entirely scientific arguments, cited every one of them, linked to articles about how the original studies had been discredited, articles about herd immunity, and so on. And the anti-vaccers got madder and madder. By the end of it, they'd devolved into health care forum-esque swearing and name calling. Friends of theirs contacted me privately to apologize. "She's never said anything like that before! And you were being so reasonable!"
There's no bringing these people around. The best we can do is to show how foolish they are so that they can't convince anyone else.
ETA: The long argument, BTW, did bring some people around who had been on the fence and were reading the train wreck. I heard privately from a couple of people who'd been on the fence and told me that the combination of my in-depth information and polite demeanor and the abuse that I got in return convinced them that only one side was founded in anything like reason. - ohplease, on 10/21/2009, -3/+48Gary ***** Null? Seriously?
"He has a PhD in "Interdisciplinary Studies" from Union Institute & University, a private college that gives degrees by correspondence from Cincinnati, Ohio"
That's your ***** expert? - b1ffr43p, on 10/21/2009, -5/+46The real point is that a lack of herd immunity puts people (including children, the elderly, and anyone else) who cannot get vaccinations for legitimate reasons at greater risk. I would think that as someone who apparently falls into that category, you would agree with the gist of the article.
- WoollyMittens, on 10/21/2009, -5/+45Without vaccinations their precious children would still be dying of small-pox and polio.
- blasteker, on 10/21/2009, -3/+43Yeah thanks for posting someone with a pre-exisiting condition. Did you know more people are killed in allergic reactions to over the counter pain killers than Vaccines?
- InfiniteNothing, on 10/21/2009, -1/+39Because a pandemic would put a big strain on society.
- MaxxusFlamus, on 10/21/2009, -1/+39http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
- MaxxusFlamus, on 10/21/2009, -11/+49http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
It's important for a reason. No vaccine is 100%. There are other instances where a person's body may not develop immunity, or a baby is not old enough, other people who lose immunity or never received a booster shot, maybe the person has an auto immune problem.
You yourself may live with the consequence but that's not without first giving other people crap to deal with too.
Just take the ***** vaccine. - anonymousmedic, on 10/21/2009, -0/+37#1 - The vaccine has been tested since the 1970s, and has been developed with the same techniques as the seasonal flu shot.
#2 - The vaccine causes an inflammatory immune response at the site of injection due to the NORMAL RESPONSE of the immune system to a foreign antigen. And dozens of scientific studies have disproven any link between any vaccine component and autism.
#3 - Yeah. There's no evidence. That's why we don't have diseases like smallpox and polio anymore. And your statement flies in the face of everything modern science knows about the immune system. In a lack of systemic sepsis, it's hard to overwhelm the immune system. H1N1 kills by using the immune system against the patient - it takes advantage of that inflammation and starts a vicious cycle that damages pulmonary tissue, prevents effective diffusion of oxygen, and results in hypoxia.
#4 - Doctors know exactly why, and every vaccine poses the same 1 in 1,000,000 risk of causing Guillian-Barre syndrome, which is what caused the paralysis. This is reversable using special intensive care techniques that include a form of hemofitration that removes the antibodies which attack the nerve cells, and time on a ventilator.
#5 - Um no. What you're talking about is a board set up by pharmaceutical companies and the FDA to examine claims for damage based on vaccine adverse effects. This was set up because of the massive amount of shill complaints about vaccines causing any number of issue. Makers are still responsable for injuries caused by untested negligence.
#6 - Are you talking about Vitamin C? Vitamin D has a role in calcium metabolism, not immune system function. Even then, megadoses of Vitamin C are useless, since C is a water-soluable vitamin and rapidly excreted in urine.
#7 - Um no. If you become an infected vector for swine flu, there is a chance that the virus will then spread.
#8 - Because they make money, they're bad, right?
#9 - Explain your logic here. That makes no sense.
#10 - Again. Explain your logic.
You can't even get your numerized arguements right. - Dregganaut, on 10/21/2009, -9/+45This is pure ignorance
- Speed, on 10/21/2009, -6/+42But that's a case by case basis. Saying that we shouldn't get vaccines because some children are allergic (which, by the way, is usually something that is checked before hand), would be like saying "let's ban Reece's Peanut Butter Cups because some people are allergic to peanuts.
- Speed, on 10/21/2009, -2/+38The one that gets me isn't idiots like Glenn Beck, that's expected. It's Bill Maher talking about the vaccine. He was going on saying he doesn't trust the government, and that it was all big pharma. Then, in next weeks episode, he said he just felt that there should be more study on this.
First, how did the government come into this? Last I checked, vaccines are created by doctors and scientists, not Obama or members of congress. As well, why is it that it's always people with no scientific background going "the jury is still out, we need more research!" and so on? When the doctors are going "yeah, vaccines are a good idea", and the people saying "these things are dangerous!" are soft-core porn models and politically extremist pundits, I think I know where I'm going to put my trust. - anonymousmedic, on 10/21/2009, -3/+39Um, there are a LOT of celebrity "scientists" who are actually outside of the relm of science. Most of them are "doctors" who have degrees in such things as Homeopathy and "Nutrition". Less scrupulus supplement and alternative medicine companies actually pay residents who are despirate for med school money to appear on their commercials as "Doctors".
Pseudoscience and the use of titles to sound authentic and like an expert in a field is as alive today as it was with snake oil doctors in the 1890s. - freshyill, on 10/21/2009, -4/+40From the summary when I google this ***** quack:
"As the leading provider of alternative health care solutions around the world for over 35 years and the trusted company for over 900000 customers, Gary Null ..."
No thanks. Keep your ***** alternative healthcare solutions. I'll take my science.
Dumb mother *****. - pintomp3, on 10/21/2009, -4/+38"make your decisions and live with the consequences." If they were the only ones to had to live (or die) with the consequences, fine. But they can spread diseases to those who can't take the vaccine because of age or compromised immune systems. By your logic people should be allowed to drink and drive too.
- douggmc, on 10/21/2009, -8/+41WAIT WHILE I HIT YOU OVER THE HEAD
Sorry about hitting you over the head. - InfiniteNothing, on 10/21/2009, -2/+34FTA I don't want to be one of the two of the 450.
"Getting the measles is no walk in the park, either — not for you or those who come near you. In 2005, a 17-year-old Indiana girl got infected on a trip to Bucharest, Romania. On the return flight home, she was congested, coughing, and feverish but had no rash. The next day, without realizing she was contagious, she went to a church gathering of 500 people. She was there just a few hours. Of the 500 people present, about 450 had either been vaccinated or had developed a natural immunity. Two people in that group had vaccination failure and got measles. Thirty-two people who had not been vaccinated and therefore had no resistance to measles also got sick. Did the girl encounter each of these people face-to-face in her brief visit to the picnic? No. All you have to do to get the measles is to inhabit the airspace of a contagious person within two hours of them being there." - Dregganaut, on 10/21/2009, -5/+37Legendary post.
- SuicideMouse, on 10/21/2009, -1/+33I must have missed something. Here in Ontario we Have to get shots for things like Hep B in order to stay in high school. I asked my family doctor about the swine flu shot and she said I didn't need it. It's not like swine flu is much more deadly then other flues so I'm not really too worried about it anyways.
I'm not anti-vax or anything, I've got shots for Hep B, tetanus, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting because getting shots isn't a big deal to me. I just don't see the point in vaccinating for a flu that many many people have got and been fine, just like the normal flu. My doctor said pretty much the same thing.
So am I a moron? Was there some new development in the swine flu story making it more serious? - yocouchdigga, on 10/21/2009, -4/+36I like the cut of your jib.
*burns down library* - ohplease, on 10/21/2009, -3/+35Read the article, idiot, non vaccinated people put those who are vaccinated but it didn't take at risk. It's only 7 pages, seriously, give it a try before you open your stupidity vent.
- Dregganaut, on 10/21/2009, -12/+43Perhaps instead of reflexive distrust, Americans should educate themselves a little on vaccines.
I'm pretty sure if you ***** in public you'll get arrested - should I go on a tirade about how the government is forcing me to ***** in a toilet? - Dregganaut, on 10/21/2009, -5/+35Note to self: Telling Americans to educate themselves will get you buried.
- insertAliasHere, on 10/21/2009, -0/+30No, but my whole wagon died from dysentery.
- tovarish22, on 10/21/2009, -8/+38Except, even for a healthy adult male (one of the largest risk groups for H1N1, assuming you are >35), there is a risk for pneumonia and pursuant meningitis/encephalitis secondary to influenza. That's not even taking into account how rapidly you can become dehydrated when you are both vomiting and experiencing diarrhea. You would be surprised how quickly a large adult can become critically dehydrated.
Maybe you should educate yourself a bit.
/med student - Purplekat, on 10/21/2009, -3/+32You're making the OPs argument in a different way.
Some people have bad reactions to various vaccines (including for diseases more severe than the flu, like mumps). These people have traditionally been able to rely on herd immunity to keep from getting sick -- everyone else was vaccinated, so the chances of them being exposed to the illness were practically nil.
Now, because paranoid parents are more afraid of phantoms than real threats to the health of their children, herd immunity has been weakened, and the people who legitimately cannot get vaccinated are in danger.
See why the OP rants about people who avoid vaccination for unscientific reasons? - OfoarHeffinsake, on 10/21/2009, -0/+29Feel free to present some any time now.
- freshyill, on 10/21/2009, -3/+31Herd immunity, *****. RTFA.
- dtr300, on 10/20/2009, -10/+37It's disheartening. Here's a good mom speaking up (her own kids caught the virus before she was able to get them vaccinated):
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,203820,00. ... - tovarish22, on 10/21/2009, -0/+27Seriously, I've had a couple of patients demand that I tell them "which pharmaceutical company is paying me" when I tell them what prescription the attending told me to give them. I told one of them that, if I were being paid by Pharma, my dinner that night wouldn't be EasyMac and a piece of WalMart brand wheat bread, haha.
- ohplease, on 10/21/2009, -1/+27So you're claiming, against insurmountable evidence going back over 100 years, that vaccines dont work? Are you ***** serious?
- Aslan72, on 10/21/2009, -11/+36For what it's worth, you don't win your arguments by calling the other side names when their motivation is the protection of their children. Be it a perceived threat, or real calling them idiots won't magically turn someone to your side, ESPECIALLY when its a mom you're talking to.
The front line here in this discussion is a Family Doctor who is trusted by the parents, who take the time to rationally talk through things, care about their opinion and then proceed on.
In our particular state, there's a slate of vaccinations that are required before the child can go into Kindergarten; they'll get them either way. - Chooxo, on 10/21/2009, -1/+25Maher's a controversial figure in skeptic circles.
The dude has some good anti-religion (but unfortunately not always atheist) views, but tbh a lot of that is just making fun of the craziness of religion, which is pretty easy to do. When it comes to the existence of God itself, he doesn't seem to have his logic straight like the better atheist thinkers. Some might say his main motive is simply to be the rebel and be anti-establishment.
Dawkins awarded Maher with some prize of recognition, recently, but in his introduction speech he made it clear that he didn't agree with Maher on certain issues, such as medicine.
The impression I get is that Maher works as a TV personality and many may like him because he is a voice for their views, but as an intellectual, I don't think he's a good representitive, and there's more than a little nutjob in him. - anonymousmedic, on 10/21/2009, -3/+27Really? Conteracting efforts? I'm talking against people who push pseudoscientific drivel that doesn't even make sense. Ever ask someone how homeopathy works? Go ahead. Ask. For extra-laugh factor, do it when someone with a background in chemistry or physics is with you.
If these "medical arts" such as homeopathy really existed and worked the way they do, it would change the face of the way society did things; one molecule of vitamin B1 would be enough to prevent beriberi in the entire world population.
I'm for Evidence Based Medicine. Homeopathy and "Anchient Chinese Medicine" aren't competative health systems, they take advantage of scared, despirate people and hasten their demises. - anonymousmedic, on 10/21/2009, -1/+24Shhh. This is DIGG. You're obviously paid off by big pharma! Why, His Homeopathy.D knows more about this than you do!
/lol. - deathandtaverns, on 10/21/2009, -2/+24the next week was worse when he tried to defend what he said. Allow me to paraphrase some of his quotes "I got vaccinated and I have allergies, I'm not saying they're related I'm just asking questions" and "I just want to debate this issue." When it comes to anything related to health he is no better than the truthers and the global warming deniers.
- manbeef, on 10/21/2009, -1/+23Listen to the commentator at 2:03, someone's edited this video so it sounds like he's saying "doctors say what happened to Desiree should discourage people from having flu shots"
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