What is Digg?91 Comments
- chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -6/+37no, the problem is every NHS hospital is now run as an independent entity. So while some may be closing others make money. It's so stupid.
also they just wasted BILLIONS on an IT systems for the NHS that doesn't even work and nobody wants it. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+30I live in the USA, next to 4 different nurses, all of them over 50 since young people don't want to pick up the tradition... And the same thing happens here. Despite a shortage of nurses in the United States(notice the online ads for nurses), nurses are asked to work longer hours with no extra pay "because you are helping society." I wish I was making this up but I hear about it constantly - the nurses are not fun to be around because all they do is complain about their lower paying terrible jobs and the ridiculous demands placed upon them. They must show up at all hours when asked to do so, schedules are flexible for management, not for the nurses.
Don't take my word for it.
http://www.nursingworld.org/pressrel/nnw/nnwfacts.htm
A study on the nursing shortage by Linda Aiken of the University of Pennsylvania School of Nursing found that an estimated 20,000 people die each year because they have checked into a hospital with overworked nurses. - Aethra, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24The number one reason nurses even consider this job is the desire to help others. They are overworked, underestimated, and way underpaid. Sadly, or happily, some will stay and work if they aren't even paid. That's dedication.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15The funny thing is the guys that "recommend" this action are getting paid 120k+... the "executives" expect people to make sacrifices but when it's expected of them: "NOOOOO!!!!"
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14I guess i'm being dugged down because people don't like to deal with reality.
Here, more links:
http://www.rwjf.org/research/researchdetail.jsp?id=1108&ia=137
This report explores the history of nursing, placing it in its modern day context within the health care system. It examines the social, cultural, and economic factors that drive the nursing shortage. By issuing the report, it is hoped to spark collaboration among organizations concerned about this issue to find solutions to this very pressing health care and social problem.
http://www2.mc.duke.edu/9200bmt//shortage.htm
At a recent meeting of the Maryland Commission on the Crisis in Nursing the Director of Nursing at one of the states largest long term care facilities indicated that she spends one to two hours out of each day dealing with the issue of staffing and "holds her breath" when the phone rings.
In November, 2000, 10 percent of the surgical beds at Johns Hopkins Hospital went idle as a direct result of the nurse staffing shortage - causing delays and cancellations of surgeries.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/490353
Overtime Pay Changes Could Worsen Nursing Shortage: 6 Million Workers to Lose Eligibility
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2802/context/archive
WASHINGTON, D.C. (WOMENSENEWS)--Alleging that hospitals colluded to suppress their pay, nurses in four cities filed suit last month against national hospital corporations and are investigating legal action against hospitals in other cities. - Dumbledorito, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Welcome to the world of public school teachers. We can't afford punch and pie, but we have generic cookies and water from the drinking fountain.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -29/+38Isn't socialized medicine great? Free health care if nobody gets paid.
- ixtapalapaquetl, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15Boo ignorance!
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8In El Paso teachers get paid $15k/year so many have side jobs like buying stuff in Mexico and selling them in the U.S. It creates a nice family bonding experience. "Go sell these firecrackers for daddy so we can eat."
- goombasf, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14too bad they didn't ask the doctors that make twice or thrice as much as the nurses.
- pintomp3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7hooray beer!
- elnerdo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7In case you didn't notice, 100,000-140,000 and 20,000+ have QUITE an overlap.
Anyway, you just made that up. Nurses actually DO get paid pretty well. - Myko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6The government runs the military, it seems to be working okay.
- adamgamble, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Which is the main problem with government run stuff. It doesn't work because their is always bureaucracy and poor financial management. Of course it would be great if it worked but it doesn't.
- hackwrench, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I think it would be interesting to float a cap on entertainment salaries to 1 million per project per year so that we all get to hear the entertainment people's complaints on how they really should have more than 1 million dollars, I think it might cause us to reprioritize where our money goes. Then again, it might not.
- mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7You think capitalists in the US don't ask their workers to work for free? Get up out from under your rock and breathe the acrid stench of truth!
- hackwrench, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6And that designer fellow on Craigslist thought he had it bad.
- Sub7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6NHS is a mess, my mate is a nurse and he's had his overtime cut so they can save money. As a result he's joined and agency to keep the income up and because the hospital is short staffed (as a result of cutting overtime) they have to hire him back from the agency at twice the cost!
Nice one Tony Blair you complete *****! Next you'll tell people you don't have the money to invest in the NHS. - adamgamble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Not trying to flame bait or anything but can you provide an example of it working? I'm for real curious. I'm admittedly ignorant on the socialized health care subject, but I know from all my past experience with government is that it all sucks :)
- BobbyOnions, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Don't forget this gem too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6294795.stm
So, we're planning to giving away "vouchers" (which will obviously be traded for cash or drugs) whilst asking medical staff to work for free.
Yes, the lunatics *have* taken over the asylum. - DaFunk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5It's the old public service triangle - you have three basic characteristics; quality, affordability and accessibility. At any particular time, you can have two of the three, but not all three at once. For example...
U.S. = quality and accessibility. It's expensive, but its easily accessible and of high quality.
Canada = affordability and quality. You're going to have to wait, but it's affordable and of high quality.
Russia = affordability and accessibility. You're going to have outdated medicine, but it's affordable and accessible.
Of course these are broad generalizations, but in the end you're going to have to pick which "evil" you're prepared to live with. Flame away. - kethraal, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9"It normally does work and in the vast majority of places you get high quality healthcare free."
That's strange, because most of the places that adopt socialist systems (i.e. the government providing services such as healthcare, etc.) have trouble with both quality and availability of goods.
I've lived in places with socialized healthcare before... and it quite consistantly sucks. I'm sorry that the reality is not congruent with the dream -- I would like nothing more than to be able to receive healthcare for free -- but it simply isn't true.
"If you are homeless in the USA, how do you get healthcare?"
Typically through charities. I know that's not reliable, and I know that often that means that if you're homeless, you don't get good healthcare. Unfortunately (and this is something that socialists always have problems coming to terms with), that's just life. If you are poor, you won't be able to enjoy expensive things. Sorry. That's reality. I know it sucks. I know that the homeless suffer because of it. But given that only a fraction of the population is unable to afford at least some basic level of healthcare, it doesn't make sense to penalize _every_ citizen just to provide a marginal improvement for a few.
And before you digg me down for being uninformed/biased/etc. I should point out -- over the last decade, I've lived in several countries with governments ranging from highly socialist to highly capitalist, and I've been on both ends of the financial spectrum -- from well-off to 10 USD for food per week.... and despite that, I'd _still_ choose to be in a country without socialized medicine. - AMSRay, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Goombast: RTFA. Some doctors have volunteered after the request. It wasn't just the nurses.
Robertcamb5 and epluribusunum: There is free healthcare in the US. Public hospitals are required to provide care to anyone who needs it, regardless of whether they can pay. Taxpayers foot the bill if they can't or don't pay. I once worked for an ambulance service as an EMT. Welfare recipients were given vouchers each month for a number of ambulance trips based on the number in their household. At the end of the month we would start getting calls for "abdominal pain" so the people could use their voucher for a free ride to the hospital because there was a Mall next door.
I have friends in Canada who have to wait months for routine surgical treatment. Those who can afford it will drive to the United States and pay for treatment out of their own pocket because their healthcare system is so swamped and of such poor quality.
Each system has it's problems. If you have "free" national health care, you still pay for it, either in higher taxes or not having access to the healthcare services in a timely manner. - shark72, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"And that designer fellow on Craigslist thought he had it bad."
Yes, it's outrageous. FIrst, the designers, now the nurses! If anybody told me that I should work for free, I'd kick their ass right proper. Amazing, the lack of respect there is for some professions.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to allofmp3.com and buy more great music at a "fair price." - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@geronimo
Doesn't Holland have what I suggested. A private service where you get X amount via the state then can top up if you wish. - paulbjensen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It's a result of bad financial management. Think cash-flow problems in businesses when they try to grow too quickly. Basically a couple of years ago the Labour Government launched a campaign called "24 hours to save the NHS". They argued that the previous Tory (Conservative) government had under-funded the NHS and therefore pressed for tax increases to improve the NHS. The investment in the NHS was large, with around 40% of the figure going on wage increases.
The big problem was that it was unsustainable to make that level of investment in the NHS and maintain it. Hence we now have job cuts in the NHS, and the scenario suggested by the Guardian.
A lot of people believe that the Public Sector is bureaucratic and wasteful, yet they do not want tax cuts because they believe that key public sector services (Health, Education, Crime) will suffer as a direct result. The overspend on the NHS IT system is the most worrying example of wasteful government, because the project overrun is in the billions £, so it matters a lot.
I do feel that Nurses are not getting paid enough in this country, but chances are they will not see an increase in their wages for the next couple of years. - duzytata, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'm currently in Pharmacy school, and let me tell you. Doctors screw up the prescriptions all the time. Pharmacists have to know just as much as a doctor does to make sure the patient is getting the proper medication they need. I can't tell you how many times a doctor prescribed something for a patient with out looking at the current medications they are taking. These people could die if they take the wrong combination. Now some hospitals already have robots dispensing medication but there needs to be a pharmacists there to double check everything and look over patients history. A pharmacists does much more than count pills. It's a stressful job when you have other people's lives in your hands.
- jeffiek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"people gladly pay their taxes for what they see as an important public service"
Remove the penalty for failure to pay and you'll see just how glad they are. - MyDocuments, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I am a 24yo male nurse and the answer is NO! By the way, here in Houston, starting pay for RNs is actually around the 50k mark +/- 2k it seems (in the Texas Medical Center).
- DrDigg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Ironically I know M.D.'s who make $70K in the Miami area.
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3My friend in the air force brags about the VA coverage he gets, and frankly I'm jealous of all it provides for his wife and his newborn. A vietnam vet across the way also brags about his service. And as someone who hates communism and has had an uncle traumatized by the korean war, I appreciate your concern about me being communist. Your story and mine are touching but anecdotal. Your service isn't great, private health care in general has a ways before it catches up with the VA, as studies show.
- geekee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"The only reason the NHS can't afford it is because of beaucracy and a poor governement financial management."
Wow, sign the US up!!! The US govt. excels at that. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9Having each hospital separate makes perfect sense. It creates the will for the weaker ones to improve. This is exactly how it is meant to work, the ones that are wasting money will quickly come to this and the people wasting the nations money shot out of a cannon (and I mean the middle management here, not necessarily the staff). I see no reason to punish efficient hospitals just because a few are run by incompetents.
Over time this will save the nation billions since there will be an incentive towards efficiency. It's not as good as privatisation but if we must have state run health care lets have as efficient a state run service as possible. - TKDWILSON, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The headline contradicts itself. Unpaid leave is not working for no pay, it is not working for no pay.
- EggNerd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Just remember this story in 2010 when President Hillary makes her push (again) for Nationalized Health Care.
Government management will invariably mean reduced services and expenditure bloat.
($2000 Bedpans anyone?) - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Seriously, you haven't been told you can't make advance GP bookings because of NL 48 hour targets. You have never had problems getting a NHS dentist. You don't know anyone who has waited longer than a year for surgery.
Lets be serious here, the NHS is far from great. Just a short study of the wonder that was NHS logistics shows you exactly why state services are a bad idea.
What's most annoying in Britain is the belief that it must be a binary choice. You can have private health care and share the current NHS budget equally among the population and we'd see much better healthcare but unfortunately people are too heavily brainwashed to recognise this simple truth. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@GMorgan
yes they do, but recently it is combined. You get health insurance from a private company but insurance companies cannot reject you for basic services, they compete with added services.
@rebrad
Here are some links for you, you might find this useful:
http://www.innovations.harvard.edu/news/16819.html
VA HEALTH CARE SYSTEM OUTSCORES PRIVATE SECTOR AGAIN
For the seventh straight year, the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) has received significantly higher marks than the private health care industry on a leading independent survey of customer satisfaction.
"Our patients are the best judges of our health care system, and for the seventh consecutive year, VA has received high marks from its customers in this independent study," said Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson. "This study reaffirms VA's success in providing world-class health care to our nation's veterans."
Biased you say. How about business week?
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_29/b3993061.htm
That's largely because the VA has by far the most advanced computerized medical-records system in the U.S. And for the past six years the VA has outranked private-sector hospitals on patient satisfaction in an annual consumer survey conducted by the National Quality Research Center at the University of Michigan. This keeps happening despite the fact that the VA spends an average of $5,000 per patient, vs. the national average of $6,300.
CNN?
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/05/15/8376846/
Technology has transformed the VA
Veterans' hospitals used to be a byword for second-rate care or worse. Now, thanks to technology, they're national leaders in efficiency and quality.
I can hear it now, "it's a liberal conspiracy!"
Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170146,00.html
VA System May Hold Answers
While many physicians and patients felt frustrated by lack of access to patient files, the more than 38,000 veterans and the doctors throughout southeast Louisiana, Mississippi, and the Florida panhandle did not. That’s because the Veterans Affairs (VA) progressive Computerized Patient Record System enabled all patient records, prescriptions, and laboratory and radiology results from all New Orleans VA patients to be accessed by any VA physician nationwide.
Within about 100 hours, the VA system had all electronic health records for all patients in the South backed up, secured, and transported to the Michael E. DeBakey VA Medical Center.
Scheurich has seen the system work first hand. “We saw about 60 patients a day who were displaced from New Orleans, and we hospitalized 127 patients that we got because we had access to their files,” he says. - johnlandes, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I'm surprised Walmart hasn't tried this yet. Wouldn't be much of a cutback for employees anyways
- WilCon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Im in favor of your proposal. I go to a university that have a big pharmacy school and like 99% of the people majoring in pharmacy are in it becase (a) lots of money and (b) not a lot of work. It's sad that so many people follow the money rather than do something they enjoy but I find it hilarious to watch the scores drop when they realized they can't handle the chemistry. The pharmacy school is actually the biggest recruiter for our business college...
- jake13jake, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Well, I don't live in Britain, but my mom is a nurse and has a hard enough time being a single parent trying to help her kids get through college (which would probably be less of a problem in Britain).
Also, I've come across doctors that will reduce their charge or even provide services for free when you don't have enough money. - Screwy1138, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Jorge - I know several people in the UK in the same situation. Taxes paying for healthcare, but it sucks, so they also have private healthcare.
Also, some of the commenters from outside the US seem to be making a bad assumption. In almost all cases, you get the healthcare you need if you can't afford it. They work it out. A lot of our healthcare costs are overblown so that the hospitals and doctors CAN treat those who can't afford it. - kagelump, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3teachers get paid alot?
the teachers around here get paid almost half of what the student's parents are earning
so the only types of teacher we have here are those who can't teach
and those who are already millionares, and decide to take up teaching (which are more than often the better teachers) - acidbreather, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Umm, have you guys ever heard of the two-tier system (like we have in Australia)?
If you have private health cover, you get treated where and whenever you like.
If you don't, you still get the same basic treatment, but you go to a public hospital instead of a fancy private one. There may also be some wait for non-critical procedures. Public hospitals are free (as in, people gladly pay their taxes for what they see as an important public service).
99% of the time, you get treated by the same doctors and surgeons - it is just the hospital room that is different. The medical treatment is world-class regardless of which system you use.
I am sick of Americans always thinking in terms of extremes (free market vs communist systems). If you look outside your own country for one minute, you will see that other places have actually already made progress on these issues. - ccrook, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@robertcam5
I don't know, maybe medicare, free clinics, or simply walking into an ER?
They cannot refuse you treatment based on lack of insurance. - evodevo1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think we should build robot pill dispensers to get rid of the pharmacists all together! An opensource robot for counting and dispensing pills! I am sure lots of diggers would be able to contribute source code, now we just need some guys to build the bot. Think of the cost savings...pharmacists get paid in the $100K range just for counting pills.
- duzytata, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yes but a machine can't tell a patient how they should take a medication and what precautions or special instructions they need to follow. We have to explain, thoroughly and in layman’s terms, the proper usage of medication to elderly people, and others in general who don’t know what they are doing. There are machines and devices that people have to use for medical reasons and we have to explain how to use them set them up, what codes and signals mean etc. We have diabetics that use electronic handheld devices that check their blood sugar. A 70yo woman is not going to know how to use that right out of the package. We have people come in to get a breathing machine for sleep apnea. We have to explain to them how to use the machine and how to check for leaks and blockages that could lead to a build up of carbon dioxide. There is much more to it than dispensing pills that a robot hooked up to a computer could not do.
- po6ot, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5@adamgamble
Yes, it works well in the rest of Europe. France for example has exemplary healthcare.
Here in Britain we are suffering because of Labour following the middle-way. They should be left-wing socialists, but instead, they keep setting up these crazy right-wing ideas of creating artificial competition in these public sector work-places. - JohnP, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Not trying to flame bait or anything but can you provide an example of it working? I'm for real curious. I'm admittedly ignorant on the socialized health care subject, but I know from all my past experience with government is that it all sucks :)"
Errrmmm... the UK doesnt only have TWO hospitals dude. This is about 2 hospitals who cant balance their books. Nothing else. - JorgeGT, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@hackwrench
Cases like that are usual here in Spain (free public healthcare). The last I rememer, a man died by a heart attack (I don't know the properly English name), being ignored by the doctor. The man dialed repeteadly emergency numer just to be told to "wait" and "calm" because his pain was probably "a back pain". About head cancer... I remember the case of a little girl not much time ago, she died because they didn't discover the tumor, they thought it was "cronical headache"...In our public socialized system, you have right to just 5 (FIVE) minutes of time with a doctor in every meeting.
I pay for private healthcare, but my taxes are used to support that crap. You americans should be thankful for not having to support such a disaster of public healthcare. Seriously. PAY for healthcare and do NOT rely in a free government service. It's your life what we are talking about. -
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