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Even the Insured Feel the Strain of Health Costs
nytimes.com — Many of the 158 million people covered by employer health insurance are struggling to meet medical expenses that are much higher than they used to be — often because of some combination of higher premiums, less extensive coverage, and bigger out-of-pocket deductibles and co-payments.
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- AlwaysAwake, on 05/05/2008, -4/+29It's a beezness, about greed and their bottom line. A risk management game of how much can we strangle the golden goose, before she stops laying golden eggs. Your health and well-being is never an important consideration. Even in the mutual companies, there are empires, fat salaries, and perks to be protected.
- HeroicLife, on 05/05/2008, -13/+7The solution to high healthcare costs is to eliminate health socialism in America:
http://oneminute.rationalmind.net/socialized-healt ...- redfan, on 05/05/2008, -3/+11Yay, more Republican, pro-big business, anti-working people propaganda.
We all know America can't afford subsidized healthcare. How would we pay for all the wars to make Cheney's buddies even richer?- Karna101, on 05/05/2008, -7/+5we need less government regulation to allow for a competitive free market. allow foreign M.D.'s the ability to practice medicine in the U.S. along with nurse practitioners who are more than capable of providing basic care for people who have the flu, monitoring diabetes, etc... this will drive down costs and encourage competition with U.S. M.D.'s. of course... then you can get rid of the FDA which prevents Canadian prescrition drugs from being sold in the U.S. at a substantially lower price. all problems are caused by government i wish some economic liberals on digg will at least have an open mind. the "free market" is not the kind espoused by republicans who dole out corporate welfare just as much as the democrats. read up on libertarian principles they actually are very sound logically. and end the war in iraq too ;)
- diggduggjoe, on 05/05/2008, -0/+3Add to that a drastic change in diet, less carbs, NO trans fats, more vegetables and limit toxic compounds. Then all we need to do is get off our fat asses. Human health, aside from some genetic diseases, is drastically improved by following two very basic rules. Use it or lose it, and garbage in, garbage out.
- zeitgueist, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1Or we could, you know, do what's successful in every other 1st wold country, instead of hoping some libertopia free-market plan works with no basis in past success.
- diggduggjoe, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1Those countries are far from successful. They have large debts like we do. I would agree that free market successes are hard to find, but I think it is because free markets are not allowed to exist. Get rid of state regulated doctors and the price will drop and health will be restored. Doctors mean well, but their training is by Big Pharma. A recent study showed that old folks on pills are in worse health then those who are not taking pills for similar ailments.
- Karna101, on 05/05/2008, -7/+5we need less government regulation to allow for a competitive free market. allow foreign M.D.'s the ability to practice medicine in the U.S. along with nurse practitioners who are more than capable of providing basic care for people who have the flu, monitoring diabetes, etc... this will drive down costs and encourage competition with U.S. M.D.'s. of course... then you can get rid of the FDA which prevents Canadian prescrition drugs from being sold in the U.S. at a substantially lower price. all problems are caused by government i wish some economic liberals on digg will at least have an open mind. the "free market" is not the kind espoused by republicans who dole out corporate welfare just as much as the democrats. read up on libertarian principles they actually are very sound logically. and end the war in iraq too ;)
- wastelander, on 05/05/2008, -1/+6Wow, Thats amazing you managed to find a site with so much crap piled up in one place!
Your right, free health-care is a myth--we all pay for the health-care of the uninsured. Of course since they get no preventative care, so come in sicker, and since they get their care through the emergency room which costs 10X as much making caring for the uninsured rather expensive.. or did you think uninsured people don't get sick? BTW the majority of us physicians strongly support universal health-care so you can cross "the rights of physicians" of you list. The ONLY ones that benefit from the current system are the health insurance companies, drug companies and a few other corporate health-care entities.
- redfan, on 05/05/2008, -3/+11Yay, more Republican, pro-big business, anti-working people propaganda.
- Karna101, on 05/05/2008, -8/+6we need less government regulation to allow for a competitive free market. allow foreign M.D.'s the ability to practice medicine in the U.S. along with nurse practitioners who are more than capable of providing basic care for people who have the flu, monitoring diabetes, etc... this will drive down costs and encourage competition with U.S. M.D.'s. of course... then you can get rid of the FDA which prevents Canadian prescrition drugs from being sold in the U.S. at a substantially lower price. all problems are caused by government i wish some economic liberals on digg will at least have an open mind. the "free market" is not the kind espoused by republicans who dole out corporate welfare just as much as the democrats. read up on libertarian principles they actually are very sound logically
- Rikkochet, on 05/05/2008, -1/+5"Canadian prescription drugs" aren't cheaper, they're actually "American prescription drugs with a subsidy due to the Canada Health Act", but that's too much of a mouthful.
The free market fails when people get hurt. It's really that simple. Capitalism is an economic implementation of natural selection. Natural selection is not nice. She kills things that were stupid, or badly designed, or unlucky. We as a race need to pick a side: either people are worth saving and we move to a socialist health model, or we accept that the individual deserves their fate and let them die because they didn't have a good enough job or good enough genes.
This middle road is completely ***** broken, America. - ledzep19752000, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2I agree we need less government regulation, but foreign doctors? You can't talk your doctor if you don't understand each other. Nurse practitioners is just another layer of bureaucracy. When I go to the doctor, I want to see my American doctor, not some nurse who can barely speak English.
- Rikkochet, on 05/05/2008, -1/+5"Canadian prescription drugs" aren't cheaper, they're actually "American prescription drugs with a subsidy due to the Canada Health Act", but that's too much of a mouthful.
- HeroicLife, on 05/05/2008, -13/+7The solution to high healthcare costs is to eliminate health socialism in America:
- bohemianowl, on 05/05/2008, -4/+12its extortion, and if I don't pay I could lose my ASSets.
- debunkthelies, on 05/05/2008, -6/+16Insurance has always been a con, you buy insurance for protection against an intangible, a what if, it's like the old neighborhood protection racket only on a global scale. My question is: If you pay car insurance for say 50 years, never miss a payment and never put in a claim for compensation, then when you're old and don't drive anymore do you get a rebate for all those years of paying?
- dmadzak, on 05/05/2008, -0/+5Places like triple AAA (I think it is them) pay back premiums to the policy holders if claims are low for a given year and a holder does not file a claim. So yes there are companies like that. If you want to see that practice continue, vote with your wallet.
- slvrbullet87, on 05/05/2008, -0/+5People need to quit thinking of insurance as a what if. Insurance is more like a community pot. Everybody pays in so that if any of them get sick the pot pays for it. Just because you dont get sick in one year, and pay more than you used doesnt mean the next year you wont get hurt/sick and cost more than the 2 years premiums combined.
- MicheleFloyd, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2Agreed. Can the insurance company demand the policyholder pay more money in back premium if they have a big claim? No. All they can do is raise the premium for the future, but the policyholder can still shop around for a better price. The market takes the irresponsible insured (in a lot of cases) off the company's hands and everyone wins.
- noaanjali, on 05/05/2008, -2/+14i can vouch for this. in the last five weeks i've paid over $400 for medical expenses—exams, doctors' appointments, prescriptions, etc. and this is with a very good insurance plan.
- bjornski, on 05/05/2008, -5/+8How much would it have cost you without insurance?
- troye, on 05/05/2008, -4/+3Your missing the point here. Think about it. -1
- bjornski, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1No, It's just an honest question. And what kinda procedure? I mean was it something instant like a car accident or broken arm, or something ongoing? I don't mean to pry, but $400 may sound out of line to some people, depending on the procedure, it may not be much money at all. If he had $2000 worth of work done, yeah, that's horrible. But if he's had a $80k procedure, that's not much to complain about.
So what is your point here? That once he has coverage he shouldn't have any out of pocket costs?
- bjornski, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1No, It's just an honest question. And what kinda procedure? I mean was it something instant like a car accident or broken arm, or something ongoing? I don't mean to pry, but $400 may sound out of line to some people, depending on the procedure, it may not be much money at all. If he had $2000 worth of work done, yeah, that's horrible. But if he's had a $80k procedure, that's not much to complain about.
- troye, on 05/05/2008, -4/+3Your missing the point here. Think about it. -1
- slvrbullet87, on 05/05/2008, -0/+3While out of pocket expenses suck, they are intended to keep your premium lower than if you didnt have them. The other method they could use is to have no out of pocket expenses and pay more every month.
- DestroyFascism, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1OR everyone pays $12 a week extra in tax.....
- bjornski, on 05/05/2008, -5/+8How much would it have cost you without insurance?
- jh9110, on 05/05/2008, -9/+11I am moving to Canada...
- ncrep, on 05/05/2008, -11/+5for once I would like to see someone actually keep a promise and move already
sure they have free health care (as long as you dont count the extra taxes) and wait in line to see any old doctor
yeah that the life, you got it right on buddy!!!- kufu91, on 05/05/2008, -3/+12I would say that waiting a bit is a small price to pay to not have people die because they can't afford a doctor.
- tsotha, on 05/05/2008, -7/+0How is that different than dying while you're waiting to see a doctor?
- Verdanic, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1I've never waited for anything in our health care system that the rest of the world doesn't wait just as long for (i.e. organs). Granted, I've never had any major surgery or anything, but my parents both have and it's been an in and out thing in every case I can think of.
- Rikkochet, on 05/05/2008, -0/+8tsotha - that doesn't really happen. There are priority placements for medical help as needed. If you need an MRI because your physician thinks you have a brain tumor that is causing whatever ails you, you get that MRI the next day. The poor schmuck with a bad back that needs to MRI to help a diagnosis may have to wait 8 months (worst case I've ever heard of) - if he isn't willing to wait, he can shell out $1000 and have it done at a private clinic the next day. The more left-leaning in Canada denounce the "two tier" healthcare we have, but damn if it doesn't work well.
- slvrbullet87, on 05/05/2008, -2/+2@rikkochet
So what you are saying is you pay taxes instead of having health insurance, but if you want to see a doctor in a timely manor you have to pay again? How is that better than paying to just your private insurer? - Lewie, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2"How is that better than paying to just your private insurer?"
Well, when you have surgery done or need medication, don't you still pay money even though you've paid for insurance?
- tsotha, on 05/05/2008, -7/+0How is that different than dying while you're waiting to see a doctor?
- kufu91, on 05/05/2008, -3/+12I would say that waiting a bit is a small price to pay to not have people die because they can't afford a doctor.
- santaliqueur, on 05/05/2008, -2/+2See ya.
- Kevin108, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1So you can get necessary treatment some 3-6 months after you actually need it. Good plan!
- zeitgueist, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1Bad choice. They have the worst nationalized health care system in the free world. Try Franks, UK, or Germany. Or Japan.
- ncrep, on 05/05/2008, -11/+5for once I would like to see someone actually keep a promise and move already
- KeirGordon, on 05/05/2008, -10/+13And where exactly do you think all that money is going? It isn't going to the doctors or the drug companies, they aren't making massive profits. You know where it is going? It's going to trial lawyers, and the guys bribing your state congressmen. Ever look at all the crap that is included with your health insurance? In Washington my insurance covers accupuncture, therapy, weight loss programs, etc. Ever wonder why you have to pay for all that ***** and you can't just pay for the part you need? Becuase the guys who run those other businesses convinced my state (and probably your state too) to make laws requiring all insurance to pay for fluff crap like that. The people making money are the politicians and the trial lawyers suing hospitals. So if you are angry about healthcare costs, don't try to force the insurance company and the hospital to lose money, instead tell your politician who is making the problem worse to go ***** themselves. Believe it or not, competition is what drives the price down, not more ***** laws that force you to buy ***** you don't need.
- bobcat7407, on 05/05/2008, -7/+6Shhhh, don't say that. More government involvement is always the answer here. It doesn't matter if they're the ones that are screwing it up to begin with.
- Karna101, on 05/05/2008, -5/+6we need less government regulation to allow for a competitive free market. allow foreign M.D.'s the ability to practice medicine in the U.S. along with nurse practitioners who are more than capable of providing basic care for people who have the flu, monitoring diabetes, etc... this will drive down costs and encourage competition with U.S. M.D.'s. of course... then you can get rid of the FDA which prevents Canadian prescrition drugs from being sold in the U.S. at a substantially lower price. all problems are caused by government i wish some economic liberals on digg will at least have an open mind. the "free market" is not the kind espoused by republicans who dole out corporate welfare just as much as the democrats. read up on libertarian principles they actually are very sound logically
- redfan, on 05/05/2008, -0/+6"then you can get rid of the FDA"
I can't see any kind of problem with that.- Seldon2639, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1If that's sarcasm, well played. If you're serious, please explain how it wasn't worse before the FDA. Before you answer, read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair, if you please.
- guyincognitoo, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1Foreign MDs can practice in the US if they pass the same tests the US grads do. I think the percentage of foreign grads practicing in the US is around 25-30.
- zeitgueist, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1Stop reposting this, Karna, unless you have data to back it up.
- redfan, on 05/05/2008, -0/+6"then you can get rid of the FDA"
- Rikkochet, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2You can't vote with your wallet when your employer chooses a company-wide health policy. You can say "just don't work there" but that's unreasonable. There is competition between healthcare insurers, but let's be honest: companies are going to pick the most attractively priced plans for their employees. Employers are just as guilty as the insurance companies here, and Joe 9-5 can't do a thing about it.
- slvrbullet87, on 05/05/2008, -1/+3You are right, employers will pick the most attractively priced plan, and if doctors didn't have to charge 15% more to cover malpractice insurance, there would be even more attractively priced plans.
- KeirGordon, on 05/05/2008, -1/+2Exactly ;)
- slvrbullet87, on 05/05/2008, -1/+3You are right, employers will pick the most attractively priced plan, and if doctors didn't have to charge 15% more to cover malpractice insurance, there would be even more attractively priced plans.
- zeitgueist, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2Tort reform is not the panacea for healthcare you think it is.
- Quake120, on 05/05/2008, -0/+3I'm glad I work for a company that pays the premiums for me, my wife, and my son otherwise it would be a LOT of my paycheck.
I want to start a company and help out my employees like that. Too bad more companies don't adopt the same policy.- troye, on 05/05/2008, -2/+1+1
- darnit, on 05/05/2008, -2/+1whats up with all your +1 and -1 comments? Just digg up or down, we don't need a personal play by play. If you have a comment which adds to the discussion then post it. Just telling us how you dugg adds nothing.
Oh and -1- killgore7, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1Just digg him down and move on.
- darnit, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1.... that was exactly my point.
+1
- darnit, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1.... that was exactly my point.
- killgore7, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1Just digg him down and move on.
- darnit, on 05/05/2008, -2/+1whats up with all your +1 and -1 comments? Just digg up or down, we don't need a personal play by play. If you have a comment which adds to the discussion then post it. Just telling us how you dugg adds nothing.
- troye, on 05/05/2008, -2/+1+1
- doralicia1970, on 05/05/2008, -1/+3Insurance is all a numbers game. God forbid you don't read all the fine lines either, because despite paying out all your premiums on time, that does not guarantee an insurance company will pay your medical claims.
- troye, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2At that point, you sue them.
...that's if you were right in the first place. Sometimes insurancs Co.s just don't want to pay, and give you legalese to scare you away. They can't do that ***** to me, because I know better.- Lewie, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2Which takes time and money. Meanwhile, you're still sick, and either need to pay up for surgery or hope you don't die before a decision is reached. Why can't we use a system that just works?
- dave2112, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2Ummm, no. You read the Summary Plan Description when you sign up for your plan. You follow step therapy guidelines. You seek prior authorization before seeking a procedure that requires it. You go to your PCP and get a referral. You use the ***** network if you are in a network-only plan (i.e. HMO). Guess what... If you follow the rules of the plan, things get covered.
Here's another one for you. Most people in employer-sponsored health plans are in a self-funded plan. That means your employer, not the insurance company, decides what is and is not covered. If you have an issue with your plan, go chat with your HR department.
- troye, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2At that point, you sue them.
- XSVfan, on 05/05/2008, -2/+2This is exactly why i skipped going to my doctor when i dislocated four fingers on my left hand. I don't have the money to goto the doctor.
- rmxz, on 05/05/2008, -4/+5Free markets "should" work that way, no?
Insurance companies are motivated by paying out the minimum they possibly could, and charging as much as they possibly can.
Doctors & drug companies in the free market should price their product to the point where it's just slightly painful - and if insurance companies pay a big chunk, that just raises the "slightly painful" point so they can charge more.
The "feel the strain" point the article mentioned seems to be exactly what the invisible hand of the free market optimizes for.
I'm not arguing that this is "good" or "bad" - just that it's no surprise since it's what the current system seems to optimize for.- bobcat7407, on 05/05/2008, -3/+6Actually, the competitive nature of the free markets should get insurance companies to give the best care they can to attract more customers. So why doesn't this happen? Because the government mandates healthcare for a ton of things and then lawyers are allowed to sue for the rest.
- 380ppm, on 05/05/2008, -1/+2right on point
- kkevlar14, on 05/05/2008, -2/+4rmxz is absolutely right. The only reason that healthcare (and insurance) costs so much is becuase people are willing to pay it. This is how the free market works when there is limited competition - people pay exactly how much they value for something, to the point where they are indifferent to buying it. This means that when people value something a lot (their health), you can expect that they will have to pay a lot for it when there isnt a lot of competition or other places to turn.
Everyone complains about high medical costs. And they're right, it is extremely expensive, but until you take the business out of the healthcare industry, this is the way its going to be.- 380ppm, on 05/05/2008, -1/+4actually, until you remove the high cost of doing business in the healthcare industry(namely regulation and frivolous litigation), this is the way its going to be. Less regulation and fewer malpractice suites will reduce the cost of healthcare and allow new players to get into the game. There is limited competition due to high barriers to entry.
- staeiou, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1Yeah, I think you put the scare quotes around the wrong word: Free markets should "work" that way, no?
And what is this whole "I'm not arguing that this is good or bad" ***** that I keep seeing pop up lately? It is basically the "We report, You Decide" slogan of Fox News. Pick a side, we're at war. - AbsurdParadox, on 05/05/2008, -1/+3Sort of. What you're forgetting is that the current system in the United States is not a free market system. Medicine and insurance are both highly regulated. This regulation is what is driving up costs and down quality. So, what do so many people around here want to do? Regulate it completely. Brilliant.
- JohnFlux, on 05/06/2008, -0/+1Are you honestly saying that the situation would be better with unregulated medicines??
- bobcat7407, on 05/05/2008, -3/+6Actually, the competitive nature of the free markets should get insurance companies to give the best care they can to attract more customers. So why doesn't this happen? Because the government mandates healthcare for a ton of things and then lawyers are allowed to sue for the rest.
- freshyill, on 05/05/2008, -3/+17Wasn't "even the insured feel the strain of health costs" the *entire* premise of Sicko?
Thanks, New York Times. You're way on top of things. - hokie47, on 05/05/2008, -2/+5Look we all need medical care, some more than others, but we all need it. The only way you can really make money is to only cover the healthy. There is a better way.
- Karna101, on 05/05/2008, -3/+3we all need it? no we don't ALL need it.
- hokie47, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1Have you ever had a shot (if you went to anything besides home school you would have to) or been to the doctors, or had your teeth cleaned? I guess you are one of the few .00001% of the people who never had any of this and were born at home.
- Karna101, on 05/05/2008, -3/+3we all need it? no we don't ALL need it.
- HeroicLife, on 05/05/2008, -11/+5The solution to high healthcare costs is to eliminate health socialism in America:
http://oneminute.rationalmind.net/socialized-healt ...- MrARPA, on 05/05/2008, -3/+4Actually you'll find universal healthcare in other 1st world countries costs significantly less (as a percentage of GDP) than the US system. The blog you link to is more of a one brain cell case rather than a one minute case.
- Scheissen, on 05/05/2008, -4/+11that's government for ya. Increase the costs for insurance and medical and then blame it on the "market."
- 380ppm, on 05/05/2008, -3/+1this way the system can take total control by confusing the automatons into believing the problem is with the insurers and not the system those very insurers are working in
- dampeal, on 05/05/2008, -0/+8Yeah I remember when I thought it would be wonderful to have health insurance, but then I tried to actually use it and found I couldn't afford the co-payments... and every year the co-payments went up $5, the ER went up $10 every year, and prescriptions went up $3 every year... I thought the point of health coverage was to help pay for healthcare, how can I get care if I can't afford it after I've paid my premiums? I always found out that things that you thought were covered weren't, or at least this year they aren't, every year the plan changed on us as to what was covered, what percentage etc.. it was sickening. at this point in time I don't have health coverage for myself, I do have it for my wife and children though... When we got our healthplan we got the top one, the best, thinking that it would be just that, the best, but it turns out there was no real difference between the levels of plans in terms of what you have to pay.. I hate the healthcare system...
- redfan, on 05/05/2008, -0/+3It's much simpler than all the anti-subsidized healthcare people like to make it out to be. Insurance companies are businesses. Their responsibility is to their shareholders, specifically the ones with more shares and therefore more votes. The government, theoretically at least, is responsible for taking care of the voters. One person, one vote.
Of course the wrench in all this is the fact that politicians' campaigns are funded largely by special interest lobbies, including the pharmaceutical lobby. They're not too interested in having to negotiate lower prices with the government or anyone else, because that affects their bottom line and their shareholders. They end up having a disproportionate influence over the politicians and the government in general. And we get stuck with expensive healthcare with large holes in coverage. And why would the pharmas care? As long as they're making profits, they don't care.
We're letting the lobbies run this country, pure and simple. And its difficult to see that changing at any point, sadly. - 380ppm, on 05/05/2008, -6/+1i bet you could afford that cell phone, high definition tv, nice computer and all that high speed internet access though
- redfan, on 05/05/2008, -0/+3It's much simpler than all the anti-subsidized healthcare people like to make it out to be. Insurance companies are businesses. Their responsibility is to their shareholders, specifically the ones with more shares and therefore more votes. The government, theoretically at least, is responsible for taking care of the voters. One person, one vote.
- Beatmiser, on 05/05/2008, -0/+9I have to agree completely, I've gone through about $1500 in above and beyond costs from my insurance in the first 4 months of 2008. I had 1 trip to the emergency room and about three followup visits for having stepped on some glass which caused an infection. I consider myself lucky for having GOOD insurance, because I've seen what they've paid out and it would honestly freak me the ***** out if it was coming out of my pocket. Now add to that the fact that I pay $150 a paycheck for my single coverage.
- tsotha, on 05/05/2008, -0/+6The list price they put on the bill is something of a scam. The insurance companies use their volume buying power to get huge discounts over what you see - typically as much as 80%. They don't always report it clearly on the bill, either. The last time I went to the ER, my bill came out to $6500, but the insurance company only paid $1200.
The people who are really screwed are the ones without health insurance. Not necessarily because they have to pay out of pocket, but because they have to pay five times as much as the insurance companies do.
A friend of mine had to go to the ER without insurance, and when he got the bill he called and said "this is way too much". They knocked of 50% on the spot.
- tsotha, on 05/05/2008, -0/+6The list price they put on the bill is something of a scam. The insurance companies use their volume buying power to get huge discounts over what you see - typically as much as 80%. They don't always report it clearly on the bill, either. The last time I went to the ER, my bill came out to $6500, but the insurance company only paid $1200.
- Karna101, on 05/05/2008, -9/+3we need less government regulation to allow for a competitive free market. allow foreign M.D.'s the ability to practice medicine in the U.S. along with nurse practitioners who are more than capable of providing basic care for people who have the flu, monitoring diabetes, etc... this will drive down costs and encourage competition with U.S. M.D.'s. of course... then you can get rid of the FDA which prevents Canadian prescrition drugs from being sold in the U.S. at a substantially lower price. all problems are caused by government i wish some economic liberals on digg will at least have an open mind. the "free market" is not the kind espoused by republicans who dole out corporate welfare just as much as the democrats. read up on libertarian principles they actually are very sound logically
- RungeKutta, on 05/05/2008, -2/+6So every single problem with heathcare is the governments fault? Are you serious?
- 380ppm, on 05/05/2008, -3/+2nope....just most of it.
- xcyber347, on 05/05/2008, -3/+5Wow Paultard, do you really need to spam the same comment 5 times for one article?
- Karna101, on 05/05/2008, -3/+227% of Pennsylvanians voted against McCain. have fun with your neocon assclown who is more liberal than your personal savior god george bush. *****.
- publiclurker, on 05/05/2008, -2/+0Of course, medicine's a lot cheaper when you can just use industrial waste as a filler.
You may think that you would make out pretty good as the "screwer" in a situation like that, but that's just because you you are too self deluded to figure out that you would be one of the first to be screwed.
- RungeKutta, on 05/05/2008, -2/+6So every single problem with heathcare is the governments fault? Are you serious?
- PHiZ187, on 05/05/2008, -0/+4And we've all heard the stories of people having to fight with their insurance companies to pay for things that are covered under their plan. Even being insured isn't a guarantee that your health will be taken care of. And if you sue, they'll just drag it out till you die.
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -5/+0here's what you do.
Create your own health insurance company. Go around your town and get all the local people to join it. Make it completely non-profit.
You might notice how neither obama or clinton is proposing a national non-profit state-owned company. You know to take out the profit motive.
You know why? Because then you'll be calling the government demanding it cover this or that or whining about rising premiums...
You can either control costs by raising premiums (private care) or rationing care (socialized medicine).
At least this way they can just blame it on the evil corporations.- PHiZ187, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1Life must be so rewarding as a simpleton. No really, I see the lure of reducing everything to a black and white binary form. No messing thinking or tackling conceptually difficult topics around the edge.
Take a ***** economics course. I absolutely disassemble you little neocon *****, cause you don't even know your own arguments in depth. You have the intellectual depth of a Rush Limbaugh soundbite.- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -2/+0so advocating for a non-profit health insurance company is neo-con like?
I see. Unlike you, I don't see the either Obama or Clinton as working to make healthcare affordable. Both their 'solutions' are just going to enrich insurance and make healthcare more expensive.
Pardon me if I prefer my rationed socialized medicine. I just wish they did more rationing.
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -2/+0so advocating for a non-profit health insurance company is neo-con like?
- PHiZ187, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1Life must be so rewarding as a simpleton. No really, I see the lure of reducing everything to a black and white binary form. No messing thinking or tackling conceptually difficult topics around the edge.
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -5/+0here's what you do.
- MrARPA, on 05/05/2008, -1/+8>"...But when Raymond had his medical problems, Ms. Giarde discovered that her insurance would cover only $22,000, leaving them with about $100,000 in unpaid hospital bills. ..."
Coming from a country with universal healthcare you will probably never understand how insane that quote makes the US system sound.There are plenty of good universal healthcare systems around the world that could be copied, and no reason why Americans should have to suffer the way they often do.- 380ppm, on 05/05/2008, -4/+0have you seen our debt? who is going to pay for this? im not against it, as long as we can afford it; but with our governments track record, im very skeptical of letting them control yet another big program. They have done wonders with Social Security and Medicare haven't they?
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -1/+5You already have medicare and the united states spends more per capita than Canada does on healthcare...and the US medicare doesn't cover everyone.
Something to think about.
I would seriously advocate one of 2 options
1. get rid of medicare and have the whole system private
2. socialize the whole thing.
publically subsidized, privately run is just a recipe for exploitation. - MrARPA, on 05/05/2008, -1/+5The last figures I saw had the US spending about 15% of GDP on healthcare and western European countries (with universal healthcare) spending less. So 1st world universal healthcare is actually cheaper than the current US system. I can't really comment on your government except to say that the degree of government involvement (with healthcare) around the world varies so people should probably not confuse universal healthcare with nationalisation.
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -0/+3exactly.
I mean singapore has a private insurance system with price controls and they have a very good system.
You can make a private system work. You can make a public system work.
But the point is to make it work :P
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -0/+3exactly.
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -1/+5You already have medicare and the united states spends more per capita than Canada does on healthcare...and the US medicare doesn't cover everyone.
- 380ppm, on 05/05/2008, -4/+0have you seen our debt? who is going to pay for this? im not against it, as long as we can afford it; but with our governments track record, im very skeptical of letting them control yet another big program. They have done wonders with Social Security and Medicare haven't they?
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -4/+0Well maybe it's because healthcare costs a lot of money...more than people realize.
Consider Canada, there was recently a study done on our system to see some of the costs.
Remember, these are raw health costs...no fancy insurance robbery...
Here they are:
http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/nhex_acutec ...
There's lots of figures there.
Have a heart attack? you just used $11,000.
giving birth? That's $3000 without complications...
I skimmed the report when it came out and I doubt they take into account actually using hospital space/rent/general hospital services. So chances are these are lowball numbers if you take everything into account. I could be wrong here.
Let's not even get into many of the big treatments or chronic diseases like cancer...- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -1/+0so pointing out real healthcare costs deserves to be dug down.
i c.
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -1/+0so pointing out real healthcare costs deserves to be dug down.
- nastronomical, on 05/05/2008, -6/+2I know ALOT of people who complain about Health Insurance and its cost..yet they pay $600 a month for car payment and insurance....crazy.
- StandupShowcase, on 05/05/2008, -1/+5health care costs are the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the USA..crazyyyy man, far out!
- TecK415, on 05/05/2008, -1/+11Yep, I'm insured. Had to take a nice little ambulance ride on three occasions. Each time what I had to pay was in the thousands, even with insurance. You know how much they charge for a 35 min ambulance ride? 20 ***** thousand dollars. Add that to the hospital stay and your royally *****. I'm uninsured at the moment, it's scary.
- TecK415, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1*I was insured.
oops. - scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -3/+2It's called insurance.
try this experiment: crash you car.
Take it to a mechanic and tell them it's not covered by insurance.
Now take it to another mechanic and tell them you are covered by insurance.
happened to me. Somehow the insured cost was over 3x regular cost.
The samething occurs in healthcare. everyone is out making their own...not just the insurance companies, but also the healthcare providers.
Remember what ron paul says about how he used to practice medicine and was paid very little (can't find the link...or exact number) and he turned nobody away. this is why neither clinton/obamas plan is going to do a damn thing about healthcare costs (now i will be dugg down :P).
The system that keeps driving costs up is still there and neither of them will dare replace it. hilary's plan will ever make things worse by forcing you to partake in this scam. - TecK415, on 05/05/2008, -0/+5"try this experiment: crash you car."
I'll just take your word for it.- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -0/+0lol.
- scamper22, on 05/05/2008, -0/+0lol.
- TecK415, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1*I was insured.
- StandupShowcase, on 05/05/2008, -2/+5single payer universal health care now!
- WoollyMittens, on 05/05/2008, -2/+4Things that serve a common good, should not be privatized.
- Birukun, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1Thank you America! At least the rest of the states NOT in the SouthWest where all the illegals clog the ER. Every made an ER trip that wasn't $$$$? They go for free. On your dime.
And who said crime doesn't pay?- Seldon2639, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1Uh... Yes, they do get to go to the ER for emergency care (which, incidentally, is the most expensive kind), since we decided (as a society) that having a huge number of people dead and dying in our streets was a *really* bad idea. I, for one, would prefer for someone with bacterial meningitis to get treatment, rather than spread it, but maybe that's just me
- Seldon2639, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1The issue is that unlike car insurance, no one is forced to have health insurance. Thus, risks remain undistributed. The people who need insurance most are the ones most likely to buy it, since those who don't need it, probably won't. Think of it this way: a 45-year-old woman is a lot less likely to get into a car accident than a 22-year-old male. If both are forced to have insurance, the system works by using the money gained from the relatively small risk on the part of the 45-year-old to offset the relatively high risk posed by the 22-year-old. Now, imagine that the 45-year-old didn't have to buy insurance. She'd save a lot of money, because she's unlikely to get into an accident. The cost, though, for the 22-year-old would skyrocket, because he's not paying the entire cost of his risk. It's called a risk pool, and it's the basis of all insurance.
Now, think of our current system, a healthy 22-year-old is unlikely to buy insurance unless he has some kind of condition. This means that the cost for those who do buy (who are more likely to need it) goes up. This is why a free market wouldn't work well in insurance, by the way, because the people who don't need it will never buy it, while the people who really need it will have to pay it through the nose to get it. This is great for the people who don't need it, but (as we're seeing with healthcare costs now) is fairly untenable - nusuni, on 05/05/2008, -2/+2Maybe if people stopped suing companies because 1 person out of 10 million died from a drug, maybe if people stopped suing their doctor's because a high-risk surgery went bad, and maybe if the govt would get control of medicaid/care our health costs would be much lower? Just a thought. The only people to blame for our current situation are idiots, lawyers, and politicians.
- Aroundtown27, on 05/05/2008, -0/+4I can't comprehend why more isn't being done to have nationalized health care in a country where even the insured can't get care. It just makes no sense, especially from a Canadian point of view
*Loves health care* - SoxSweepAgain, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1America's government isn't inclined to provide health care to all, particularly not in this economic meltdown that the billionaire vultures are currently elbowing eachother out of the way for. There are plane trips to eastern Europe that cost less, overall, than your "insured" coverage in uninsured America that you can take, especially for any serious dental care. Prescription drugs are cheaper everywhere other than America, even after "insured" deductibles (often $20-$100 here in the USA per-prescription-per-month) for some.
- JohnFlux, on 05/05/2008, -0/+2In the UK we pay half of what the US pays, per person (capita), on health. You should be switching to nationalised heath care _particularly_ in the economic meltdown, to save costs.
- fatfreddyscat, on 05/05/2008, -1/+1Not Me. My copay is 20 bucks and they take about 120 a month out of my pay. Seems fair.
- Kevin108, on 05/05/2008, -0/+1My health insurance HMO is about $60 a month. My copays range from $15 to $50. So while I have insurance, I can't afford to use it.
- sangita21, on 06/04/2008, -0/+0LOOK ,,,,,, HOW THE BAI WORKS………………………….
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