What is Digg?30 Comments
- eir574, on 05/28/2008, -4/+12Because mindful meditation has measurable results. Stanford's hospital offers an 8 week class, and after a friend of mine who'd struggled with depression all her life went through it and started doing a lot better, I decided it was worth the $220 to try to get some control over my constant headaches. I knew that under certain circumstances, I could relegate the pain to the back of my mind and ignore it. I just didn't know how to do that on purpose. Mindful meditation is essentially a relaxation technique. You practice it not just in one longer session per day, but also for a couple of minutes here and there during the day to teach yourself to slow down your breathing and take in more oxygen per breath, which naturally relaxes you.
Studies have been done showing physical effects of mindful meditation programs. Perhaps the easiest change to measure is the lowering of blood pressure: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/07120 ... .
I thought when I took the class that I'd learn the technique and ignore the philosophy surrounding it, but it turned out to be interesting. One of the central ideas is that things aren't good or bad until we make the judgment that they are. If I'm in pain, the more I'm aware of how bad it feels, the more stressed I get and the worse I perceive the pain to be. That's in addition to any physical feedback mechanisms that could cause the level of pain to worsen as my body tenses.
In many cases, making a judgement that something is good or bad is a perfectly appropriate and necessary thing to do. In the case of pain, though, it's not a productive thing to do. I can acknowledge that it's there (and, if necessary, that it might be a clue that something's wrong) without thinking to myself that it's a bad thing that I have a headache . . . theoretically, at least.
It has also helped with insomnia for me, and in addition to headaches that are caused by a neurological problem, it has helped muscle tension from sitting at a computer all day, which cut down dramatically on tension headaches. My sister in law is about to try it to help with an intestinal condition she's had for nearly two years that's most likely attributable to stress. - StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -2/+9"You have to recognize that God created the universe and all of its laws, systems, causes and effects, science, etc."
Why? I mean really. Why? Why do I have to recognize that. You have yet to present any evidence that "He" created ... anything. Unless you define He as He that did the creating, in which case you have to establish that everything was "created". Its all very circular.
So is He that did the creating, the same as He that sent his son to die for you? Did He ever show you any evidence to support this claim? Or did you just take him at his (supposed) word?
There is a big long line of logic here that has never really been established. Its really arrogant to say that I *have* to accept something that you have never demonstrated. - StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -2/+9And please, don't tell me I have to accept it because the Bible says so. The Bible having any authority rests on the authority of its supposed source, who, we have yet to establish actually exists, let alone has any authority whatsoever to demand anything of us.
- StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -0/+5Hurts my head to think about it. So outside of digg I generally just sigh and say "thats nice."
- StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -1/+6Yeah, funny. I was reading just the other day about people thinking vaccines cause autism and how this may have much greater impacts on morbidity and mortality than the greatest possible feared effects of vaccination.
And then last year I was seeing the Dalai Lama being invited to a neuroscience conference to speak on the mental foundations of happiness and the measurable effects of meditation.
What a strange world we live in, where the evidence is there for anyone to read and yet bias confounds each of us. - StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -0/+5Actually, placebos are extremely useful in some situations and have demonstrable, measurable effects. So, I agree doctechnical. However they aren't effective in the SAME situations.
- Coven, on 05/29/2008, -0/+5Dizzying logic, isn't it?
- StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -2/+7If there is no-one to make a judgment, how is anything good or bad? Clearly you can not separate the ideas of good and bad from the one perceiving them. Its like asking if a sound is music when no one has heard it. A rock falls off a cliff and hits no one and no one cares. Good or bad?
Relative vs. Absolute Morality just has to do with which observer we think is important. If *I* am important, its relative. If *you* are important, its absolute. Okay, just kidding about that last. But really, when we get our morality from "God", suddenly its absolute. But that really depends on God's perspective on things. If we get it from social consensus, suddenly its either relative or absolute again depending on who you ask.
/is tired of people who don't know what relativism is using it as an epithet for anything that makes them uncomfortable - Browntowne, on 05/28/2008, -2/+7Why do people have trouble separating religion and the human aspect of spirituality? Mindfulness meditation is a medically viable spiritual practice devoid of any religious connotations.
- StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -1/+6Meditation isn't alternative. Crystals are alternative. Homeopathy is alternative. Meditation is used by cognitive psychiatrists all the time. Seriously. Go do the medline search, convince yourself of its reality, and quit with the bad euphemisms. The brain is amazing. Candling, crystals, and diluting the hell out of water, aren't.
- eir574, on 05/28/2008, -2/+7I was speaking more of the things we experience in day to day life, our perceptions of them, and how they impact our lives, though that wasn't at all clear from my post. We do make judgements about how we perceive things and how we let them affect us. To take a simple and yet relevant example, the pain I experience is, in fact, a bad thing. It's abnormal and it's indicative of a problem. I don't really get to choose whether that's the case or not. What I do get to choose is how I let it impact me: I can recognize that it's a bad thing in general but not let myself feel that it's having a negative impact on me right now and that it's making my life worse in some way (theoretically, at least . . . I'm still working on that one). Instead of focusing on whether it's a positive or negative thing in my life, I can view it with a bit of detachment. I'm not explaining this particularly well, but hopefully some small nugget of meaning is coming through.
- inactive, on 05/28/2008, -3/+7That was a generally good post and I am giving you a digg up, but I have to disagree with you concerning your statement that things aren't good or bad until we make the judgment that they are. That is relativism taken to an absurd extreme. Virtually all things fall in to the category of being either good or bad regardless of your making a judgment about them. That is just one of the pitfalls of living in time-space where cause and effect are the rule and not the exception. Very few actions in life are neutral. Even Buddha recognized that and taught his eight-fold path as a response.
- StaticThunder, on 05/28/2008, -6/+10"As Christianity is rejected by the lost, cults rush in to fill the empty void."
It must be awful to be afraid of people becoming enlightened and content. I'm surprised so many Christians are so vocal in admitting that it terrifies them.
Its especially rich, considering that Christianity supplanted plenty of other religions when it was only a cult, and is currently losing ground to Islam -- which is quite exclusionary. Buddhism isn't a threat at all. It doesn't exclude Christianity -- you can be a Christian Buddhist if you want, but perhaps not a Buddhist Christian. Mindfulness doesn't exclude Christianity either, although maybe if you are mindful you discover religion, gods, ideas about heavens and hells, are just another attachment. - inactive, on 05/28/2008, -8/+12Buddhism isn't trying to force it's onto people, into the schools or into the government. Second, Buddhist philosophy and meditation deals with the self. Centering the mind and body so you can take control. Christianity deals with the external ideal and gives up control. In Christianity, one throws their prayers, wishes and dreams to the universe and hopes for the best. Buddhism teaches that one can over come any obstacle and achieve any goal if one focuses or meditates.
I have always said that the phrase "God helps those who help themselves." is nothing more than a twist on positive thinking. One thinks God is on his side, when in fact, it's all the work of the individual. - Ramble, on 05/28/2008, -1/+5You can only be misled if the belief you had before is true. There is no evidence for that so it's not really a problem.
- eir574, on 05/29/2008, -1/+5@dotechnical,
If you'd read the article I'd linked to, you would see that it gives a partial citation for the study it's referencing. Here it is: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcg ... . That should contain references to the studies it analyzes. You can also search pubmed for information on various meditation techniques' impacts not only on blood pressure, but also on other conditions.
On a case by case basis, this may be one of those things that does so little harm (no physical harm; the only thing lost is time and the cost of the course, if any) that it's worth talking to patients about it. A drop in blood pressure would take time to measure, but it's also used for stress based conditions. Most people in my class indicated that they saw the potential of the technique by the end of the first session after a guided meditation that left most of us feeling unexpectedly relaxed. Whether that's due to the meditation or our preconceived expectations is probably not relevant. If you think a certain ritual is going to reduce your stress levels, the placebo effect could last you quite some time. Even if all this technique does is implant such a strong suggestion that it works that people actually perceive it to be working, that's great for those for whom stress reduction is the goal. - inactive, on 05/28/2008, -9/+13I thought medicine which includes psychology and psychiatry was based on Science. Yet, many digg trolls insist that Christianity has no place in science. Then, why the religion of Buddhism? How do they justify that Buddhist philosophy and meditation are useful in medicine?
- StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -1/+5I'm not your google. Try ncbi.nlm.nih.gov and search for placebo... rather large number of papers there, might have to refine it to a particular disease or neurological state. Then search for meditation.
You'll find your studies. Some nice fMRI results on Buddhist monks, if science news was to be believed. - StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -1/+5Wikipedia cites Barfod 2005, Di Blasi 2005 for effects of placebos as treatment. Since placebo is a pretty common word in medical papers.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/329/7472/92 ...
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/330/7481/45-b - eir574, on 05/29/2008, -2/+6Mindful meditation has measurable results in randomized, controlled studies. Read the link I provided in my original response to rjwusa's comment.
- StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -1/+5BTW, if you discount peer reviewed journal articles as sources, because anybody can publish anything in them, why do you ask for them?
Cold fusion was announced in a press conference, and published with large caveats on the part of the journal. - StaticThunder, on 05/29/2008, -1/+4Buddhism has no obstacles or goals?
What is Samsara if not an obstacle? What is the elimination of suffering if not a goal? - inactive, on 05/28/2008, -3/+5There is no passage in the Bible which states that "God helps those who help themselves."
What scripture does say is:
Isaiah 50:10-11
Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.
And that is about as far away from God helping those who help themselves as one can possibly get.
Interesting take on Buddhism you have there, but it's not Buddhism that you're describing. Obstacles and goals are about as far removed from Buddhism as, well, as you are. - inactive, on 05/29/2008, -1/+2Pappy, I never said it was in the Bible, I just said it was a phrase.... and my take on Buddhism is no more interesting than your take on the Bible. Buddha's teaching are as "alive" as any teaching in the bible or Sun Tzu's Art of War. You get out of it what you read into it.
- doctechnical, on 05/29/2008, -1/+2You can invite a cat to a polka, that doesn't mean it can dance.
If alternative medicine worked, it wouldn't be "alternative". - doctechnical, on 05/29/2008, -2/+3What amuses me to no end is the people who will dismiss religion out of hand as sillyness but happily buy into such nonsense as homeopathy, accupuncture, $7,000/foot speaker cables and other silliness.
James Randi FTW. - inactive, on 05/28/2008, -7/+7BTW:
Mindfulness Meditation isn't boasting to be an alternate equivalent to science like ID claims to be to Evolution. Also there are years of studies to back-up meditation... ID has yet to provide any actual data. - doctechnical, on 05/29/2008, -2/+2Links to the journal articles ?
I can say that my cat plays Bach's Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor to a scientific journal, get it published, that don't make it true. See also "Cold Fusion" - doctechnical, on 05/29/2008, -3/+2"Because mindful meditation has measurable results."
So do placebos. - inactive, on 05/28/2008, -8/+4With regard to Christianity, it's not whether or not certain New Age or Buddhist practices actually work or not that is primarily in question. It's whether or not you recognize God as your Creator and Jesus as your Savior. Unless you do that, you are not giving credit where credit is due.
The Church may not have any specific religious teachings on gravity, but that doesn't mean we can't all know it's out there and have some understanding of how it affects things. You have to recognize that God created the universe and all of its laws, systems, causes and effects, science, etc.
Discovering a police uniform and wearing it doesn't make me a policeman anymore than I would necessarily be judged worthy of God's Kingdom in Heaven when I die simply by discovering any sort of New Age psychiatric technique that may happen to work according to God's laws of His Creation.
Digg is coming to a city (and computer) near you! Check out all the details on our 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is