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- cosworth99, on 06/27/2009, -46/+414It's simple.
US spends the money on war.
Canada spends it on healing people.
This isn't hard math to do. - stuartnow, on 06/26/2009, -36/+364One reason we will be the only rich country in the world not to have universal heath care, is the insurance companies wont give up there huge profits with out a fight. If that means giving a million here and million there to a few politicians so be it.
- j0en, on 06/27/2009, -12/+250Whenever I hear a politician say "you don't want a buercrat between you and your doctor" my first thought is have you people ever had to deal with the American Health care system?
- chubbstar, on 06/27/2009, -15/+251about a week ago i passed out from heat stroke. when paramedics arrived i was up and conscious again, not feeling GREAT, but as a precaution i went in the waaambulance anyways. they decked me about with oxygen (smells like new car), an iv drip (that ***** better than gatorade for electrolytes), heart monitors, etc etc. since i stabilized quickly i had to wait. 8 hours later, they took some blood and heart tests and told me i was fine.
i cant help but wonder if it was the states if id have bothered going to the hospital at all merely to skip the bill. what if i had epilepsy.. or diabetes or something weirder? anyhoo, long story short, 8 hours is a small price to find out youre healthy when something serious happens.
i like canada. - americanoboy, on 06/27/2009, -34/+204countries that don't provide universal health care are backwards
- Zomgondo, on 06/27/2009, -38/+205BUT IT'S SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
- Adamhunterprice, on 06/27/2009, -23/+157Why do a couple of you americans on here think that this is a war between canada and the states, like im sorry but canada health care system is better then the american, but guess what you guys still have one of the greatest militaries and are the entertainment capital of the world, have a beautiful country and nice people and there is tons of other great things i could say about america, you dont have to be the best at everything so just let this one go. For the states to have 10 times the amount of people as canada pushed into a smaller area then canada its not like a clear outcome is just gonna pop out, with more population you are going to have more poverty but also more wealthy people, no matter how you look at it health care should not be provided upon how much money you have but upon your right to live.
- bubgz, on 06/27/2009, -3/+128In the states it could cost you anywhere from $500 to $1000 for that ride to the hospital and an IV drip. If you're conscious, take a cab. Sad but true.
- warp99, on 06/27/2009, -12/+126Universal health care in the Unites States will never become a reality until corporations are so burdened with the costs they are unable to generate profits. What the general public wants is irrelevant.
- Dauntless1, on 06/27/2009, -9/+119I see the /s at the end of your statement, I just want to point out the irony that most people saying "OMG it's Socialism" have no idea why they think socialism is bad.
- e1evene1even, on 06/27/2009, -13/+121The only people who have a problem with Canada's health care are American's that know little to nothing about it...
- Dauntless1, on 06/27/2009, -1/+93Just an IV two months back cost me 3400 dollars. Complete *****.
- jwkpiano1, on 06/27/2009, -17/+88It should be 0%. Healthcare shouldn't be a for-profit business.
- Dauntless1, on 06/27/2009, -5/+74Exactly. No matter how much bitching people want to do, any for profit system puts bureaucrats between you and treatment, and only a moron thinks that's a good thing.
- magamiako, on 06/27/2009, -9/+74The American Health System is terribly abusive on the wallet. And this isn't even counting what it's like for when you do not have insurance.
Doctor visits to my regular doctor without insurance are $100. Per visit.
Chest X-rays ran me about $450 (per visit).
Don't get me started on the medication.
Needless to say, this one incident of pneumonia put me into some SERIOUS credit card debt.
As of right now, my company does an 80/20 split with my health insurance.
My insurance plan breaks down as follows:
Vision: 3.22/paycheck
Health Insurance: $33.50/paycheck
Dental: $6.50/paycheck
I pay $86.44/month in healthcare.
In addition to this, I have $25 prescription copays, $20 doctor visit copays. Not everything the doctors want to do is covered by insurance. I run into this situation with my optometrist. He takes some pictures of my eye that aren't covered by the plan. I've also run into this with my health insurance plan.
Emergency room visits are a $100 copay. Not sure regarding what other fees may be attached to that, I had to use the ER once this year.
Mental health insurance is a $750 deductible for me. Meaning I pay the first $750 of the visits and then the insurance will cover the rest.
In the case of my optometrist, they want to perform these tests because they check for macular degeneration and things of that nature. But the insurance plan only covers the basic eye exam (to be honest, I can probably drop the insurance and save money)
I had a growth removed from my face by a dermatologist surgeon. They sent it off for cancer testing. The test itself was covered by insurance, but once they found out that it wasn't cancerous they opted not to pay for the actual procedure.
My previous dental plan did not cover a tooth removal procedure I needed because the dentist wanted to put me under (and I wanted to go under) to get it done. This trip ran me $850 for about 20 minutes worth of work and 1 day recovery. I was more than happy to whip out the credit card for this though because I was in hellish torture pain for over 3 days as a result of it being Memorial Weekend. I was previously using a DMO which only covers in-network doctors. They wanted to give me something like $25 back for an out of network procedure.
Doctors in the US will generally help you game the system a little bit:
-They will provide samples if they have them available.
-They will prescribe generics when they can.
-They will help you game the system by filling out paperwork differently so that a procedure that might not be covered ends up getting covered with some wording changes.
I've been to many types of doctors, and the doctors themselves are willing to work with you and they know this system is *****. For the most part, everything I've listed here has been fairly minor. Pneumonia isn't a minor situation, but none of these have been nothing like a trip to the ER, a car accident, an extended stay in a hospital. The most I spent in a hospital for any of this was about 4 hours.
Now, aren't you foreigners glad you don't have to deal with our system?
(Yes, I understand my post is kind of fragmented. It's 3:30AM, give me a break) - TheIndigoSky, on 06/27/2009, -5/+68I do hope we eventually get something good working. As it is, we have the worst of all worlds. We pay too much for inadequate care, we're forced to wade through a private bureaucracy only to be told that we can't get the care we need, and we have millions of people who can't or don't have coverage. Those who want to keep the status quo as is are either rich, blind, or uncaring.
- douggmc, on 06/27/2009, -18/+81"Common misconception. The average profit margin for the 3 major health insurance companies in the US is less than 7%. "
... exactly the root problem. The profit/loss concept of a business has NO PLACE in health care. When "the system" is comprised of men/corporations whose salary/profit is impacted (both in positive and negative terms) by decisions regarding a person's health ... and they make those decisions ... what do we expect the outcome to be?
The reality is ... every citizen in this country (that has soul ... so most neo-cons excluded) should be morally outraged that we are even debating the fact that a single payer govt run system is better than our current system. No person regardless of wealth, race, sex, VIP status, employment, nationality (etc.) should have or receive better or worse medical treatment than any other. This isn't socialist. This is common, basic, human rights. - rotundo, on 06/27/2009, -3/+65Amen. I feel like 90% of the griping that people are doing over a public health care options is that America wasn't the first place to do it so we're too proud to copy someone else.
- Yazilliclick, on 06/27/2009, -1/+61They spend more per capita by far, nearly twice as much as Canada.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307ot ... - Hillsfar, on 06/27/2009, -4/+61What's funny is that everyone of those crochety old conservatives screamin' bloody "Socialism!!" is on Medicare (a socialized medicine paid for by everyone else) because they're over 65 and no private insurer would take them because they have a deteriorating heart condition.
- patent98310, on 06/27/2009, -12/+68universal healthcare must be bad, France does it...damn french with their healthy people and their free house calls and life saving surgeries. And those effin communist bastards Cuba, the devil himself runs their universal healthcare system. infant mortality rate lower than the great U.S. of A, pshh. who needs healthy babies when you also have to bow down to the socialist agenda of spreading healthcare to all. The great Rush Limbaugh once told me "know when you look over that border, that your looking straight into the eyes of the liberals who want to steal you from your homes and give you free care. FREE!? Now to be a man you have to except that life is not a given right, it's decided by the minority, you see; we like to give rights to minorities in America, there's so few people with all that money. It would be unfair to let the overwhelming population of the poor have too much lean in such powerful decisions." no really i remember him saying that to me as i sat on his knee one afternoon. I call him papa limbaugh. So wise.
- Dubbleyew, on 06/27/2009, -6/+59You clowns seriously don't deserve national heathcare. You don't want it? No problem. Continue being ranked 47th in health care of all developed nations. Continue having an appalling infant mortality rate. Continue having your asses pulverized by insurance companies.
The joke is truly on you. All this ***** about long wait times, going across the border for medical treatment, bad quality care. It's all lies. Nobody in Canada would EVER give up our national health care. You Americans, you just don't get it. Healthcare is not a business. Most doctors don't spend 10 years in school so they can make lots of money. Most doctors actually have a passion for healing people. They have a passion for learning more about their discipline.
You Americans have it so wrong. Healthcare is not a "business". Well....in America it is. Its all profit. But in other countries, other more humane, compassionate countries, healthcare is a basic human right. You Americans, especially you conservatives, are ruining it for your whole country. You don't even think about what you are saying, or do any real research. You just watch fox news and assume whatever you hear is true. You don't even KNOW what you don't have.
So ***** it, you don't want national healthcare? Fine. This isn't some petty argument where you get to "win". This is your health. It is all you have. I really want you Americans to know just how absurd you look in the eyes of countries like Canada. Canadians live longer than Americans, and are healthier. This must be because we have such long wait times and crap quality health care.
- Brad324, on 06/27/2009, -2/+54the difference is the value per dollar spent. Canadians spend less per capita but everyone is covered. Americans pay more for less coverage.
- Hillsfar, on 06/27/2009, -5/+57Y'know, the Canadians love their plan, overwhelmingly prefer their plan, are scared of getting sick when they visit the U.S. so they buy health insurance before they come visit, and pay about the same in taxes as we do while also getting free health care.
And Oh! They don't have the massive government budget deficits that we do while spending less of their gross domestic product on health care and getting better overall health and general outcomes per our own studies and many of our own health experts. One study found a Canadian hospital had 5 people in their billing department - mostly to bill and fight with American health insurance companies covering American visitors. While an American hospital of the same size had 500 people in their billing department - all to bill and fight with health insurance companies. What kind of waste is that?!? And that kind of wastage doesn't even count the 31% of every health care dollar going to for-profit insurance companies covering their own salaries, bureaucracies, etc.
Now... I am going to say something that I don't think will be popular to those who are against nationalized health care/public health care/single-payer health care (even though we pretty much already have one for the poor and the elderly and for veterans and civil servants).
Those who speak out against a public/national/single-payer health care plan can say all they want about preserving the freedom to choose your own doctor, the "moral hazard" of abuse of benefits by those who don't pay for their own health care, and the need to retain the ability to have the best medical care in the world, etc. They can talk all they want and they have good and valid points with which we can all agree with. But they ignore the elephant in the room.
The elephant is this: When it comes down to it, those who do not have health care or cannot afford health care don't give a ***** about the freedom to choose their own doctor because they can't afford to see any doctor. None of them give a ***** about abuse of benefits or the cost to society when they already don't have benefits and it already costs them an arm and a leg through taxes and bills for emergency room visits. They don't give a ***** about access to the best medical care in the world if they can't even afford it or will go bankrupt (60% of all bankruptcies filed are due to medical illness, and 75% of those actually had insurance at the time they fell ill). All they care about is getting some decent health care and some kind of medical and financial safety net where they currently have none.
Everyone can agree that there is a different level of support for public health plans if only 5 million people in the U.S. are uninsured or underinsured, versus if over 40 million people are uninsured or underinsured, versus if over 200 million are uninsured or underinsured. Therefore as businesses cut health insurance benefits for their workers in these hard times, and as health insurance costs continue to rise 3 to 4 times faster than official inflation as they have over the past decade or more, and as people increasingly find themselves without adequate health insurance or without any health insurance, as people find themselves and their family and friends increasingly going without care or delaying care or splitting their pills and going bankrupt... The more pressure politicians and society will feel, and the more those who oppose such plans will be fighting an uphill battle.
I agree that free public medical care is not a right. I believe that no one has the right to claim another person's effort and devotion and hard work and money as their right. Free medical care can be a privilege granted by societies that choose to make it free to its citizens through subsidies paid for through taxation and other methods, but it can be and has been abused. Costs certainly can escalate and become more burdensome.
But then again, the current crisis in health care is escalating and becoming burdensome even now. There is waste in privatization, profit-seeking, Congressional-influence-purchasing, stockholder value-building, just as there is waste and abuse in offering free care. And of course, there will always be frivolous or exorbitant lawsuits and unions to contend with, regardless of whether it's public or private.
So pick your poison. Pick your costs and pick your special interests. But remember the elephant in the room. It cannot be ignored. - amabaie, on 06/26/2009, -16/+66The key is to define which services are most effectively delivered by individuals and which most effectively by the state. The problem is there are too many people who think in black-and-white ideology rather than in multichromatic practice.
- LilJimmyNordin, on 06/27/2009, -18/+68The main problem is the uniquely Republican notion that greed and capitalism are the same thing, and that community and socialism are the same thing. Until that thinking is changed or those thinkers purged, you've got hell yet to endure.
- Yazilliclick, on 06/27/2009, -12/+61Except it's not true, US spends more on health care than Canada.
- rotundo, on 06/27/2009, -3/+51Indeed, it must be very nice for big pharma to have universities and government funding pick up the tab for the research and development of new procedures.
Oh... you thought they did that themselves? - Dauntless1, on 06/27/2009, -1/+49@theoneken
You're right. With the system we have now, the government checks with me every time they spend money. Isn't it great? - rotundo, on 06/27/2009, -7/+52And can you explain why you think it is overly optimistic? Is it because you have lived in Canada? Or have you discussed the issue in detail with several people who have?
Or is it because some media pundits told you it was bad up there?
Or is it because it conflicts with your ideology?
I'm seriously curious why you think that. - rotundo, on 06/27/2009, -0/+42In the states you would probably not be taken to the hospital.
A few years back I spiral fractured my humerus and someone called 911 (didn't want to move and risk damaging my radial nerve). The paramedics came by and put it in a sling. They told me that if they drove me to the hospital (a five minute drive) I would be charged $800. They said insurance wouldn't cover it since I could walk. So a friend drove me.
I was billed some $400 for the sling.
Not a serious complaint, just a story.
Insurance did cover the $20K+ surgery without issue, however. - Winston84, on 06/27/2009, -9/+51NO, it's because Americans are the most a-social people on the face of the Earth, you generally don't give a flying ***** about anyone but ME,ME,ME ..
- Dauntless1, on 06/27/2009, -2/+43It's the exact same, except that you don't receive a bill.
- cosworth99, on 06/27/2009, -3/+42Uh no. When it comes to Afghanistan you guys have been leeching off us. Iraq? We said no to going. Vietnam? We said no to going. Korea? Yugoslavia? We were there in droves. WWII? Ever wonder why Yanks sew CDN flags on their backpacks in Europe? We were in WWII waaaay before the US was.
Who got your hostages out of Iran?
Piggyback my ass. - Dauntless1, on 06/27/2009, -4/+43Congratulations, neither one of you read the article, and therefor have nothing relevant to say about it.
- aidanwhiteley, on 06/27/2009, -1/+37That would be per capita costs. According to Wikipedia: US$6,714; Canada, US$3,678 per capita.
As a % of GDP: US 15.3%, CAN 10.0%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American ... - sneaker98, on 06/27/2009, -3/+39I live in Canada, and it's about right.
I'm sure the American system is fantastic *if you have the money*. But I don't believe that people who can't afford the care they need don't deserve it. That's what it boils down to. - barryiggins, on 06/27/2009, -7/+42what the ***** are you talking about?
the public is always "picking up the tab" for R&D.... the internet wouldn't exist without it - Dauntless1, on 06/27/2009, -3/+38Just a guess, but I think you missed his point.
- rotundo, on 06/27/2009, -5/+40Logic 101 fail
- jwkpiano1, on 06/27/2009, -2/+37Specious logic.
- Lefts, on 06/27/2009, -2/+37But... the Ruskies!
- inactive, on 06/27/2009, -8/+42The U.S. is $11.5 *trillion* in debt. We are not rich.
- eadnams, on 06/27/2009, -4/+38Canadian doctors make damn good money.
- dynamitehacker, on 06/27/2009, -0/+33If you're rich, get sick in the U.S. Then you won't be anymore.
- kelpee, on 06/27/2009, -8/+40As a Canadian, who lived in Florida for two years, Louisiana for a year, (1997 - 2000) and came home again I agree with everything she said.
Healthcare in the US is exceptional, but only if you can afford it. Healthcare in Canada is exceptional and everyone from babies to old folks are covered.
I have no complaints about our health care system, nor do I know another Canadian who does. - calypsoschnitzl, on 06/27/2009, -4/+35The right's excuses are getting pathetic.
- joshmoney, on 06/27/2009, -0/+31@spectecjr
Hence the word "per capita." Latin "pro capite", meaning per head, per person, etc... - douggmc, on 06/27/2009, -3/+33This has nothing to do with "individuals ... vs. state" and who most effectively provides medical services. It is about the whole concept of profit motive in healthcare. We should all be morally outraged that we let people not get the best treatment they can receive. We should be morally outraged that we allow a system where a business man makes medical decisions (and spare me the argument that it would be replaced by a beaurocrat in govt. run system). This has nothing to do with ideology ... and everything to do with decency and human rights.
- pagit, on 06/27/2009, -6/+35missing: it's not 100% government funded. my employer pays to my provincial government about $97.00 for my family of 4. When I was self employed, I had to pay the Medical service plan health insurance.
I agree with everything the author says -
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