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321 Comments
- Hetman, on 02/13/2009, -10/+96The evidence does not appear to be there. The only real link is that kids usually develope Autism between the ages of 1 and 2. It also happens that most children recieve vaccines when they are between the ages of 1 and 2. Correlation does not equal causation.
- RennyB, on 02/13/2009, -4/+57bugwayii,
That old argument doesn't hold water. Ignoring the fact that "science" has known for thousands of years that the Earth is a sphere (see Eratosthenes), if the consensus of the scientific community is theory A (the world is flat), and theory A is useful in explaining and predicting natural phenomenon, then theory A is a good theory, even if some day in the future it turns out to be wrong. Newton's theory of gravity is wrong. It can't predict observations made where there are large gravitational potentials and high velocities, it's been superseded by the Theory of Relativity. Does that make Newton's Theory a failure? Of course not, it propelled human knowledge forward. I'm think I'm getting a bit off topic here, what I'm trying to say is that while there may be some link between vaccines and autism, science has thus far been unable demonstrate it. With no science to back up the autism-vaccine claims, the court made the right decision, EVEN if later in the future science discovers a link. - thepoliticalcat, on 02/13/2009, -5/+51I beg to differ. The only article that I know of that establishes a causal link between vaccination and autism is the work of one Dr. Wakefield (I believe) and was published in the Lancet some years ago. Dr. Wakefield is currently under investigation for admittedly falsifying the data he used to come to his conclusion. As for the allegation that mercury is present in the vaccines, it is not mercury per se, but an organic derivative thereof known as thimerosal. Use of thimerosal as a preservative in vaccines was discontinued in 1992. The incidence of autism has since INcreased. Moreover, thimerosal is commonly used as a preservative in many other cases, most notably eyecare and contact lens cleaning solutions. If there was any likelihood that thimerosal caused autism, a huge number of people who use or used thimerosal-containing products would have been affected. This has not been the case. Also, note that children who are *not* vaccinated have autism in approximately the same numbers as children who are. Please see The Evil Eyebrow at http://www.jbwr.net/web/bp/billblog/index.php/arch ... for more information.
- BigManOnCampus, on 02/13/2009, -6/+43And now... a few celebrities have their personal causes make them look like idiots
- riverrunner, on 02/14/2009, -11/+46Okay I have this 'religious right' neighbor who won't vaccinate her (3) kids because she firmly believes it will cause autism. I am pretty sure she thinks the world is only 6000 years old as well and global warming is a fantasy. this calls for a facepalm.
- TinmanHero, on 02/13/2009, -6/+38Now hopefully this insanity will end. You need only turn and look at Britain's measles out breaks, or here in our own backyard in the US to see that not vaccinating your children is about as good an idea as letting them play with knives.
Since the pro-infectious diseasers realize what a sinking ship they are on, will they abandon it or just hop on over the the rest of the kooky 'alt-med' people? - inactive, on 02/13/2009, -3/+31500 years ago, science knew that the World was spherical; Ptolemy proved it in the second century A.D., *****.
- brstilson, on 02/14/2009, -1/+29Actually, it was the uneducated public who thought the earth was flat 500 years ago, kind of like how the uneducated public thinks the MMR vaccine causes Autism now.
- thepoliticalcat, on 02/13/2009, -3/+25Silly person! Autism may affect a child's brain development but it will not kill a child. Failure to vaccinate against preventable but deadly diseases such as measles, mumps, rubella, smallpox, chicken pox, polio, and whooping cough will, and already has. OTOH, some of these illnesses can leave a child sterile, so perhaps it would be appropriate that silly people find themselves bred out of the gene pool. Another thing: in order for vaccination to protect the entire at-risk population, vaccination rates need to be in the 95th percentile for the affected group. Thanks to the silly people who worry about causation that has repeatedly been disproved, the vaccination rate has dropped as low as the 80th percentile, meaning that many more children than yours are now at risk. And, should you travel to countries that have inadequate medical facilities and even lower vaccination rates, you can put entire nations at risk. Several children in the UK and the US have died recently of perfectly preventable and once-common childhood ailments.
- bwhite, on 02/14/2009, -7/+28I trust my son's pediatrician when it comes to vaccinations. He is well known in my region for working with Autistic children and he done his research and participated in other studies. He firmly stands that Autism is not caused by vaccinations. Over the last 20 years, the definition of Autism has changed and morphed into what it is today. Whenever you change the definition of a disease, the statics will change too. Its not that more children today have Autism. Its that the guidelines for diagnosing Autism is much more vague.
Often, signs of Autism can be seen prior to 1 year of age. Parents sometimes don't acknowledge there is a problem or could be a problem until it's full blow or completely obvious. - hyberion, on 02/14/2009, -3/+23As a parent of an autistic child I can (to a certain extent) sympathise with those who find themselves with an austic child seeking some cause outside of "well. . .***** happens". . .but I can also say from this side of the fence that the mere idea that my getting my child vaccinated caused his autism gnawed at me for a long time. . .(it would fall into that realm of things you don't *believe* but still worry about in that long dark of the night). . .and that you would have people who would shake their head when they were told of my son's condition and say things like ,"Well, at least you'll be able to sue about the vaccines. . ." and things like that.
Parental guilt is the second strongest force in the universe (right after compound interest). I'm glad this is finally getting sorted out and maybe we can put this whole arguement to rest and move on to trying to find the actual cause of autism and find an effective treatment for it. - brstilson, on 02/14/2009, -1/+21Also, when thimerisol (the compound claimed to be the autism-causing agent) was removed from all MMR vaccines, autism rates continued to climb. They don't even have a correlation. Autism rates are on the rise because of a) increased attention and awareness of it, and b) a broadening of the definition of Autism itself, both resulting in increased diagnoses. Autism existed and was probably just as prevalent back in the 50's, and it existed centuries, millenia before that. It's just that up until about the 1990's, Autism was lumped into the broad "mental retardation" category. Autistic kids were around before then, we just knew them "retards" during that time. It was only recently we discovered that autism doesn't really hinder intelligence or brainpower, it inhibits the language and social centers of the brain which in turn makes learning more difficult. In other words, the house is fine inside, the door is just boarded up.
- Hetman, on 02/13/2009, -1/+20But I imagine you probably allow them to eat as much processed corn sugar as they possible can. Amirite?
- pikelet, on 02/14/2009, -3/+22Biscutz, it's not just your kids...you're putting everyone else in danger by compromising herd immunity. It's because of parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids that easily preventable diseases spread and effect the ones who can't be vaccinated - those who are actually allergic to vaccines, and babies who are too young to have theirs.
I've had all my immunizations, from an early age. I've had a few I don't think you get in the US either (do you guys get meningitis vaccines or was it just when it was an epidemic here?) I just had my last Gardasil last week in fact. I'm fine, and most of these were given years and years ago when shock horror, they probably had worse crap in them. I'm extremely pleased that I have not had to worry about say, losing my arms and legs to meningitis.
By the way, if you're so concerned about mercury, I hope you don't eat fish... - Hetman, on 02/13/2009, -1/+18I thought the egyptians knew the world was round and estimated the circumfrence of the earth as early as 250BC.
- loqqq, on 02/14/2009, -11/+28Unfortunately, much like 9/11 conspiracy theorists, you'll never convince certain people that there's no link between vaccines and autism. Every study is "bought and paid for" by the medical community, so in their mind, no study is ever valid.
- spookyttws, on 02/14/2009, -1/+18I personally don't believe in god, but isn't it logical to conclude that if god created us and blessed us with the intelligence and means to extend human life through any means he would be okay with us using said gifts? Some people take their beliefs way to far.
- spookyttws, on 02/14/2009, -1/+17Mercury hasn't been used in decades, and the safe derivative, thimerosal, has not been used in over 15 years, yet the numbers are the same. Your weak argument is not only based on falsified facts it has been proven incorrect from 15 years of Autism despite the fact we've stopped using the safe derivative you claim caused the Autism.
- Firstdaughter, on 02/13/2009, -1/+17Actually Al they will develop antibodies to attack the antigen but not the memory antibodies which remember the antigen to attack it later (that's how vaccines work).
- Hetman, on 02/13/2009, -2/+18They do not use the mercury you are talking about. They use thimerosal. Maybe you should look it up.
- draculthemad, on 02/14/2009, -3/+19Thats the thing, there is no evidence that there is ANY such chance.
One person published a study after taking money from a lawyer who wanted to sue.
Said lawyers then used the study as a weapon to ignite a media storm thats causing this whole debate.
That study has since been debunked. The author has admitted to falsifying the data, and faces criminal prosecution for fraud.
Meanwhile people are dying again of measles/etc. for the first time in decades, and more are suffering long-term injuries as a result of bouts with it.
Go look up the term 'herd-immunity'.
Refusing to get your child vaccinated out of misguided, unfounded, and mistaken concerns is the same as abuse through neglect. - bwhite, on 02/14/2009, -0/+15Autism can develop earlier than 1 year also. Other studies have found signs showing as early as 10 months, which would certainly rule out the 1 year vaccinations.
- WhiskeyLemur, on 06/30/2009, -0/+14"Your freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose." Your freedom of choice doesn't give you the right to drive on the left side of the highway or to shoot at pigeons in a crowded city. 'Nuff said.
- thepoliticalcat, on 02/13/2009, -0/+14Thank you, Rennyb. As for bugwayji, please remember that correlation is not causation. Just because the MMR vaccines are administered shortly before children begin to display symptoms of autism does not mean that the vaccines caused the autism.
- takamalak, on 02/14/2009, -2/+16unreg, you're an idiot. And that wasn't caused by any vaccination.
- nowhereelse, on 02/14/2009, -5/+19I saw a documentary a few years back which claimed that Wakefield had begun his research in response to questions from lawyers who wanted to know whether there could be a link between MMR vaccination and autism. They were hoping to obtain compensation for parents of autistic children. The whole motivation of Wakefiled's research was to find a connection, not to determine whether there was one. AFAIK he was struck off in the UK on ethical grounds and now works in the US. I sincerely hope that someone prosecutes him for manslaughter now that dozens of children have died through contracting measles, mumps or rubella because they were not vaccinated due to the scare created by his deliberate disinformation.
- spookyttws, on 02/14/2009, -9/+22The idea that being inoculated against diseases (some of which had previously almost wiped the human population off the map) was causing such a complex neurological developmental disorder is insane. I really don't understand why anyone would want a reason to say that inoculations are bad. Are people so against science that they would rather have their child die before admitting that as intelligent human beings we are able to better our world with the advancement of health through science?
- Angostura, on 02/14/2009, -1/+13Sorry - your credible research is... where?
- inactive, on 02/14/2009, -2/+14No, the insanity will never end. There was never scientific support for this idiotic idea, and the people who believe it are ***** insane. No amount of evidence will ever satisfy these nuts. When you're this deluded, it's easy to dismiss the evidence as being "part of a conspiracy."
Then again, maybe if we have a few more outbreaks of preventable diseases, maybe that'll drive the message home to these monsters who feel the need to put their children and others at risk because they're so ***** stupid as to believe this *****. - Warshade, on 02/14/2009, -2/+14especially not with Jenny Mcarthy and Jim Carey supporting the controversy.
even though neither of them have any information in regards to actual scientific fact
She even believed in the "Indigo Child" thing which was almost as insane. - WhiskeyLemur, on 06/30/2009, -2/+14*luteslinger puts on his robe and tinfoil hat*
- schnibitz, on 02/14/2009, -0/+11Okay, I scanned through most of you arguments, not reading them thoroughly, but one of the arguments you make is that drug companies want to protect their investment. Yet drug companies really don't make much on Vaccines from what I've read. In fact, they have to keep the number of people getting the flu shot every year propped up so that manufacturers don't stop making it.
- Angostura, on 02/14/2009, -0/+11I'm not sure why you got dugg down. I respect your bravery. I'm firmly believe that there is no link between autism and MMR, and yet when I got my kids vaccinated, even I had the 'gulp' moment before saying to myself, don't be so silly.
I wish you and your family every success and a hope your child has a full and happy life. - Chrysalii, on 02/14/2009, -1/+12no no
Science has always known the world was spherical, The public knew the world was flat. - ricksite, on 02/14/2009, -0/+11They already looked like idiots. Even IF vaccines had caused autism, I think it would be worth the trade off. Have the celebrities not been to countries that don't have vaccines?
- inactive, on 02/14/2009, -2/+12You endanger the whole population... You suggests to people to get an "edumuhkation" about mercury (even if there is NO "mercury" in vaccine, but a derivative called thimerosal) and yet you ignore the real education that is "herd immunization".
You see, your misguided choices affects everyone's kids, not just yours. Look it up.
/Father of an autistic kid, and it didn't stop me from having my younger child vaccinated. - takamalak, on 02/14/2009, -1/+11Biscuitz, we have science on our side. You have a washed up B grade actress on yours.
- coyote1284, on 02/14/2009, -0/+10No, they just order babies from them. XD
- Angostura, on 02/14/2009, -1/+11No, I believe the poster was advocating that we should accept the results of well peer-reviewed research unless there is a compelling scientific reason not to.
But thanks for playing. - Dipsomaniac, on 02/14/2009, -1/+11Come ON. The main instigator of the mistaken belief that vaccines cause autism falsified his research.
Note: That doesn't mean he was wrong. It means that he flat-out LIED. If your article was written by or cites Wakefield then throw it away before you embarrass yourself. No link has been demonstrated. - EarlOfLade, on 02/14/2009, -1/+10I have just one thing to say: You are ***** insane, seek professional help!
- inactive, on 02/14/2009, -1/+10Until they get polio.
- Hetman, on 02/13/2009, -0/+9Well good for you and your kids. That is a positve thing.
- wunksta, on 02/14/2009, -0/+9"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church."
--Ferdinand Magellan
Spring 1480 – April 27, 1521
but the understanding of the spherical earth goes back thousands of years, its been a certain few groups have kept suggesting otherwise... - jabelli, on 02/14/2009, -0/+9No, "we" didn't. It was never approved in the US, and only 17 children were born with birth defects. The company also failed to disclose side affects.Holding this up as an example to "prove" that vaccines are "dangerous" is disingenous.
- skywake, on 02/14/2009, -1/+10Perhaps the increase in the incidence of Autism is more to do with better diagnosis than anything else. Only a hundred years ago and even more recently people with Autism would have simply been called "crazy people" and since then more and more people have been diagnosed. You can say the same for many other chronic illnesses including Diabetes, ADD, MS, Asthma...
I think Occam's razor is probably worth bringing up here. What is more likely, that there is a conspiracy between the scientific and medical community as well as the US Legal system and government supporting the drug companies to keep the fact that a preservative that used to be used in vaccines causes autism in children and they are covering it up so that they can continue to make money from these vaccines.... or that there is no link and this is just some right wing conservatives being paranoid. - inactive, on 02/13/2009, -2/+11There's also the obvious fact that the shadow that the Earth casts on the moon during lunar eclipses is curved... and 500 years ago, they would have already noticed for centuries that a ship coming over the horizon emerges bit by bit, mast first, until the whole ship comes into view - as if ascending!
- inactive, on 02/14/2009, -3/+11"Ever heard of Mercury? How about you go get you somes edumuhkation."
... ever heard of smallpox? - skywake, on 02/14/2009, -1/+9Its funny that some people think this is a drug company conspiracy of some kind. My niece has autism and she requires almost no medication for it other than some mild sedatives to help her (and her parents) get some sleep. Most of the medication given to kids with Autism is to treat the epilepsy that often occurs with it.
If I was a big drug company and I wanted to increase demand for my products I wouldn't be giving kids Autism. In fact I would probably be pushing to ban immunisation! - murdockat, on 02/14/2009, -1/+9you are the former CEO of an investment fund. would you trust a philosophy major from college who took economics 101 to give you advice on your investments? i mean, he is educated and took an econ class in college!
no? then why would you think your introductory math, chem, and bio courses give you more authority on the subject than the scientists and physicians at the American Medical Association, American Pediatrics Association, and the general scientific consensus?
As to your final fact about studies performed, a search of google scholar shows the first hit to be this:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/347/1 ...
which compares the incidence of autism-spectrum disorders in vaccinated vs nonvaccinated children.... in 537,300 children!!! Their cohort is half a million children!!!! If this study doesn't fit your criteria, then I'm not sure what does. And what did they find?
>From the article
Of the 537,303 children in the cohort (representing 2,129,864 person-years), 440,655 (82.0 percent) had received the MMR vaccine. We identified 316 children with a diagnosis of autistic disorder and 422 with a diagnosis of other autistic-spectrum disorders. After adjustment for potential confounders, the relative risk of autistic disorder in the group of vaccinated children, as compared with the unvaccinated group, was 0.92 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.68 to 1.24), and the relative risk of another autistic-spectrum disorder was 0.83 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.65 to 1.07). There was no association between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.
Looking at the confidence intervals shows that there is absolutely no difference between the two groups' rates of autism spectrum disorders, with a trend toward LESS autism spectrum disroders in the vaccinated group!
Here is another article that is interesting from a whole-population perspective:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/aq0470t874jwm6 ... -
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