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66 Comments
- novenator, on 07/09/2009, -4/+22This is part of the reason why everyone needs to stay focused on this issue for a few more weeks. If we keep the pressure up, we can get a good bill passed that has some real reforms and a public option.
- doublefelix, on 07/10/2009, -2/+17Doctors worried about lawsuits being forced to perform expensive unnecessary tests, while with my plan they would probably contest a broken leg as a preexisting condition.
- Wosat, on 07/10/2009, -7/+15We do need more efficiency. And when you think efficiency, you think "federal government", amiright?
- beabis, on 07/10/2009, -1/+8I trust them to give the bid-rigged contracts to their friends waste countless billions of tax dollars on useless projects while the crime rate soars.
- strangewill, on 07/10/2009, -3/+10TBH: Canada has 1/25th the administrative overhead cost of ours (adjusted per capita of course).
- beabis, on 07/10/2009, -2/+9The government works for the highest bidder and that is never the voter. Government involvement will only make it worse.
- scamper22, on 07/10/2009, -2/+8I don't trust them for efficiency of any of those operations.
- drmangrum, on 07/10/2009, -0/+6People need to look at their history. Health care didn't used to be expensive. You didn't always HAVE to have insurance. It wasn't until Medicare and Medicaid came around that costs to health care started to rise.
Why?
Government programs don't care about profits and losses. They play with taxpayer money. They ALWAYS have a revenue stream. Because of this, everyone jacked up their prices since the government system had an "endless" stream of money. Medicare and Medicaid act as a defacto 100% coverage system. Real insurance companies got bit in the ass because doctors and hospitals were charging private companies the same as they were charging the government. What happens when costs suddenly sky rocket? Restrictions on coverage and increase in premiums. If you really want to fix health care, the government needs to back off and Medicare and Medicaid need to be completely re-implemented.
There are some thing that people AREN'T saying about those 47 million people that don't have coverage. 30% of them make over $50k a year. 30% of them qualify for medicare or medicaid and haven't filed the necessary paperwork to get into the system. 20% are illegal immigrants that have no right to tax payer dollars anyway.
So 80% of the 47 million people have means to get coverage or have no right to coverage. So you have to look at the remaining 20%. A large chunk of those are the young and healthy who really don't need coverage. Their chances of a catastrophic condition are pretty low.
The problem isn't as big as Democrats are making it out to be. It's very fixable without costing the taxpayers trillions ( yes trillions ) of dollars for substandard care. - Charlotte_Web, on 07/10/2009, -0/+6Don't like the coverage your insurance company is offering you? Fine, you are free to switch to another insurance company. That's the beauty of our capitalist system -- there are many insurance companies, and they are competing with one another for your business.
One of the problems with government health care is that it knocks out the competition. Don't like the coverage that the government is giving you? Too effing bad, move to another country. - MatthewDuke, on 07/10/2009, -3/+9Yea, because the federal government is awesome at making things efficient. /sarcasm
- beabis, on 07/10/2009, -1/+6Americans are getting ***** in ass the by the health care and insurance industries, and now they are grabbing their ankles and inviting the government to join in.
Boob jobs are affordable enough for hundreds of thousands of women to get them every year. Yet any similar medical treatment surgery is astronomically priced. Since insurance doesn't cover boob jobs the consumer pays what the surgery actually costs. But for any medical procedure there are a hundred freeloaders riding the insurance fueled health care gravy train driving up the costs. Insurance is the cause of the problem, not the solution. - Duston, on 07/10/2009, -0/+4@jbmcb Are you suggesting that while in the ER the doctor informs you that you need a stint in your heart you would say, "can I get it done cheaper in another town?"
- TheInformer, on 07/10/2009, -3/+7No good crisis, whether real or imagined, should go to waste. Let's keep the American public in a constant state of crisis. Let's also ram laws through Congress before the public gets a chance to read said laws.
Wouldn't want an informed public, would we? - Charlotte_Web, on 07/10/2009, -3/+7The bill is already loaded with billions in pork:
http://digg.com/politics/Health_care_bill_is_heavy ... - Wosat, on 07/10/2009, -2/+6Some in congress have tried to limit liability. Others have blocked their efforts due to pressure from trial lawyers.
I'll leave identification of the two groups as an exercise for the reader. - GaltShrugged, on 07/10/2009, -0/+4American Progress eh? Buried.
- jbmcb, on 07/10/2009, -2/+6> You already trust 'em for roads
They suck, and the state takes care of those, anyways.
> fire dept
I don't believe the federal government pays for, or runs, my local fire department.
> security
What department is "security?" DHS? What a joke.
> defense
Oh yeah, we have an awesome army. It just costs more than what we spend on everything else put together. $500 hammers, anyone?
> law enforcement
You mean the FBI? Or DHS? Or BATF? Or the Secret Service? Or the coast guard? Yeah, collectively they all play very well with each other and are incredibly effective at coordinating operations /s - SmokenJoe, on 07/10/2009, -1/+5It is easier and worlds safer to run a dozen tests than use your head you are going to get sued for that in a heartbeat even if those tests interfere with getting better. The sad thing is that there is absolutely no end in sight there are more costs purely to avoid liability. How sad.
- Charlotte_Web, on 07/10/2009, -1/+5@SammyJr
Why, yes I do live in an idealistic capitalist fantasy world. Captialism is the greatest economic system in the history of the planet. It's not perfect, but considering all of the other options, it is far and away the best.
The only reason you have healthcare through your employer is that your employer is subsidizing part or all of that cost as part of a benefits package, in order to entice you to work there. You are certainly free to purchase your own, or switch employers. If you're married, that generally gives you two options for healthcare coverage, your healthcare or your spouse's healthcare. There's also supplemental coverage that you can buy if your employer's coverage isn't sufficient (like AFLAC).
The point is, there are a multitude of options available to you now. In a fully-socialized healthcare system, there is no choice, and you get what you get. - BasalCellBossk, on 07/10/2009, -6/+9You already trust 'em for roads, fire dept, security, defense, law enforcement, etc etc
- themostimproved, on 07/10/2009, -3/+6Nothing cuts waste like a government program.....
- beabis, on 07/10/2009, -4/+6Everyone needs to stay focused and stop the liberals from using our tax dollars purchase votes and line the pockets of their corrupt supporters.
- SammyJr, on 07/10/2009, -1/+3Boob jobs are cosmetic surgery. No one is over the barrel to get a boob job. Having time to negotiate and walk away gives the customer leverage.
Need heart surgery now? You're over the barrel and there is no incentive for the providers of heart surgery to work with you. You can't walk away and you need it now. - arpad, on 07/10/2009, -2/+4No, the reason "everyone needs to stay focused" is because the public's starting to become suspicious that when too much is promised not nearly enough is going to be delivered so a failure to ram through socialized medicine now might mean a failure to get socialized medicine at all.
- endisnighe, on 07/10/2009, -0/+2There is the crux of the problem, I was looking for an opening. Lawsuits and the insurance to cover malpractice is what is fueling the explosion in costs. Just get rid of the bad doctors by eliminating the bureaucratic crap. If a doctor is accused of malpractice, he goes into a 12 panel board and all I mean all evidence is presented by himself no fracking lawyers and a settlement is reached. This panel is paid for by the insurance companies that cover the doctors but are appointed by the people of each state to a 2 year only term. No fracking lawyers.
- flythenet, on 07/10/2009, -1/+3When insurance companies offer plans that cover more risky less proven and expensive procedures, they are accused of driving up the cost of health care. If they limit plans to cost-effective and proven medicine, in an effort to lower cost, they are accused to being money-grubbing corporate interests screwing over the patient for profit. I think the premium cost of health care in America reflects the desire of the consumer to have access to a wider variety of treatment options at their own discretion.
The point that most people are missing in this discussion is that health care in America is an capitalist industry. Where the consumer is allowed to direct growth, it reflects what the consumer wants. The thought that federalizing the system is somehow going to get you the same level of care at a lower cost is the result of many many people thinking that with government manipulating the industry, they personally will get a sweet discount. Just not true. - novenator, on 07/10/2009, -1/+3Is this a purposeful attempt to see how many buries you can get?
- nickdwhite, on 07/10/2009, -3/+5Baaaaaaaaaahahahaha. Yes.
- kcasper, on 07/10/2009, -0/+2government programs can cut waste if they are designed correctly.
- drmangrum, on 07/10/2009, -0/+2Universal Healthcare attempt to fix a symptom not the problem.
The problem is health care is too expensive. The solution need to fix that problem. Universal Healthcare makes that problem WORSE.
Hint: the problem is government funding and interference. Medicare and Medicaid are blank checks for hospitals and doctors. - drmangrum, on 07/10/2009, -0/+2It depends. I never saw a doctor while I was in the Air Force. Always the junior enlisted guy that gave me a questionnaire...that was my physical.
My dentist on the other hand was awesome. That guy was a ninja with the needle and drill.
@3tcp
You couldn't be more wrong. Most military doctors are there because the military paid for their education and part of the deal is they have to be a doctor in the military for so many years. Some stay in because they like the lifestyle and what they're doing, some get out and start a private practice. - reeds1999, on 07/12/2009, -0/+2A healthy citizenry is a Strategic Asset of the first order! Do not let the Harpies of profit destroy the country!
We need a Single Payer Universal Health Care Plan now! - Charlotte_Web, on 07/10/2009, -1/+3Ask anyone in the military what they think of the quality of their own medical. The doctors (officers) have no incentive to go above and beyond to treat you, so they are going to give you the bare minimum because of the high volume of patients they need to see.
I remember when I was doing my two weeks reserve duty for the Navy, and I had to have a dental checkup. It was summer, and I heard the petty officers at the reception desk grumbling about how all the reservists want to get free dental, and will wait for their reserve duty to get work done. I just happened to have a cavity that was giving me fits that week. They took my x-rays, and the doctor checked me over and said, "Looks great! Keep doing what you're doing!" and sent me on my way.
When I see my (civilian) dentist now, he tells me if I have a cavity forming before I'm even aware of it. - endisnighe, on 07/10/2009, -0/+2Audited and Accounted for, wow ever hear of the government auditing itself. Look at the Federal Reserve, I am so sick and tired of everything having to be supplied to the losers of our society. If we got rid of the fracking political ***** in everything, things would work. But no, because of our government supplied education the downright destruction of our freedom has taken place one piece at a time over the last 30 years. And I am so sick and tired of it.
- Charlotte_Web, on 07/11/2009, -0/+1Sure, RIGHT NOW jobs are scarce, but that's because we are going through a deep recession. Normally the economy is fairly robust.
Too many liberals want to turn Uncle Sam into Uncle Sugar because they don't have a concept of the government having only a finite amount of money to spend. That money has to come from somewhere. Worse, the current bill in Congress does NOT put downward pressure on costs; it pays market rate. And the Democrats are unwilling to pass any tort reform; malpractice suits have a LOT to do with the soaring costs of healthcare.
I'm sensitive to the issue of pre-existing conditions, and would like to see that reformed as well. I want to see the Democrats work WITH insurance companies, though, and not simply push them out of the way. We are a market-based economy, we need a market-based solution. - jbmcb, on 07/11/2009, -0/+1> You'll get the surgery. Insurance will choose how much it pays and you'll owe the rest.
That's not how it worked I had surgery done. Insurance brokers a price with the hospital, you pay your deductible, up to a yearly maximum. I hit my yearly maximum, but it was nearly two orders of magnitude lower than the cost of the surgery and related expenses, so yeah, it was a good deal. - guyincognitoo, on 07/10/2009, -0/+1The most popular "unnecessary" test is a scan of some kind. They are fast and have the most promise for catching something that may have been missed, but they add up quickly.
"When in practice, Doctor's engage in defensive medicine to protect themselves against a lawsuit. They perform tests and provide treatments that they would not otherwise perform merely to protect themselves against the risk of possible litigation. The survey revealed that over 76% are concerned that malpractice litigation has hurt their ability to provide quality care to patients."
Because of the resulting legal fear:
· 79% said that they had ordered more tests than they would, based only on professional judgment of what is medically needed, and 91% have noticed other physicians ordering more tests;
· 74% have referred patients to specialists more often than they believed was medically necessary;
· 51% have recommended invasive procedures such as biopsies to confirm diagnoses more often than they believed was medically necessary; and
· 41% said that they had prescribed more medications, such as antibiotics, than they would based only on their professional judgment, and
. 73% have noticed other doctors similarly prescribing excessive medications.
From page 4 of this:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/daltcp/reports/litrefm.pdf - spambutcher, on 07/10/2009, -3/+4how much health care money is wasted on non-treatments like:
homeopathy
acupuncture
chiropractic
etc.???
this stuff isn't of questionable value - it's of no value - but a lot of insurance plans cover it.
seriously - anyone know? - SammyJr, on 07/11/2009, -0/+1jbmcb, no that's not how it works. You'll get the surgery. Insurance will choose how much it pays and you'll owe the rest.
- darkened, on 07/10/2009, -0/+1Actual chiropractic work has been shown to alleviate pain, not chiropractic work that just uses homeopathy. Acupuncture has been shown to be effective at alleviating some types of pain but to be a placebo affect in most cases.
- themostimproved, on 07/10/2009, -3/+4Considering all those suffer from free-rider problems because they are social goods. Health care is a private good, and will suffer from free riding problem IF it is socialized. For instance, if my neighbor is protected from an invading army, chances are I am protected too. If my neighbor gets medicine, well, I don't benefit NEARLY as much.
- jbmcb, on 07/10/2009, -0/+1> Are you suggesting that while in the ER the doctor informs you ....
If you are in the ER and they must perform the surgery, your insurance HAS to cover it, even if it's out of network. Even if you don't have insurance and you can't afford it, the hospital has to do the procedure.
If it isn't immediately critical, you are free to shop around. - 3tcp, on 07/10/2009, -0/+1learn to paragraph please
- 3tcp, on 07/10/2009, -0/+1"Arguements for a public option mirror arguements for socialism at the beginning of the 1900s."
Of all the reasons to oppose universal health care this is the weakest and least persuasive. - Charlotte_Web, on 07/10/2009, -0/+1"To be fair, military doctors are all the ones who are too lazy or suck too much to be able to get a job in the private sector."
I disagree. First of all, you don't get to be a doctor by being lazy. You still have to go through the same medical education system that civilians do, which is highly competitive.
Second, I have a friend who was a surgeon in the Army. He got his undergraduate in pre-med before seeking a commission in the Army, and the military paid for the rest of his education. The value of that benefit was easily in the six figures. That, my friend, is HUGE.
Here's the problem with the military way of life, which is not too far off from socialism (oddly enough): You get paid the same amount of money whether you see one patient this month or a thousand, and your job is secure, regardless. Whether you do a great job or a passable job, it doesn't really matter, because your advancement depends more on how you handle standardized testing and what your superior officer thinks of you. And worse, it's difficult for patients to complain because the doctor is an officer and most of the patients are enlisted.
Contrast that with civilian doctors trying to build a practice. Time is money to them; if they only see one patient that month, then they are going out of business. So they try to see as many patients as possible in a day but (here's the catch) they still depend on customer loyalty, so it's in their best interest as a business person to give you the best service that they possibly can to 1) keep you as a loyal customer and 2) get referral business from you. The doctor competes with other doctors to win loyalty and new business, and the system rewards the best doctors. - Barackalypse, on 07/10/2009, -6/+7Wow, sounds almost as bad as the Government.
- inactive, on 07/13/2009, -0/+1You must be paid by the GOP or something because all you comment on is politics in support of Republicans. You might as well get a new account, troll.
- SammyJr, on 07/11/2009, -0/+1@Charlotte_Web,
Wow, you do live in a fantasy world. In your world, it is very easy to switch employers. In your world, it is very easy to purchase insurance, and since you don't mention them, preexisting conditions must not exist either. In your fantasy world, both spouses are always working and each always has an excellent benefits package.
In the real world, where I live, jobs are scarce. Jobs with good benefits are even harder to find. I know. I found one. Private insurance is either cheap or comprehensive, not both. My wife is currently "retraining". In the real world, we don't need insurance options. We need health care. That's it. If a socialized system will pay the bills and not get in between me and my doctor (unlike private insurance), then I'm ecstatic. - JanSimpson, on 07/10/2009, -1/+1Unions not having to pay taxes on it - sidewalk earmarks, street lights earmarks - just more Politician bs - that doesn't help the Americans - I think that all Conservatives should start their economy - then we would come and in buy the Liberal piece for pennies on a dollar - we spent our economy into bankruptcy by allowing Bubbles to be made by the likes of Goldman Sachs and others - then we allow Obama to come in Chicago Mafia Thug style politics to ruin the rest - be careful what you ask for - By the way - why don't we all start reading the bills that Obama's mid level organization are actually authoring these bills and giving to Congress to vote on - and since they won't read - did we give them a test to see if they could read and write?
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