What is Digg?73 Comments
- Goosemaster, on 10/12/2007, -11/+108Yeah because either way most of your devices won't have drivers anyways:P
edit: - chrono13, on 10/12/2007, -0/+37No.
I just cleaned a system this last week.
It was a fully updated XP (IE7, MP11, all updates optional and otherwise) system, rather well secured (AVG, Firefox, Windows Defender, so on and so forth), and was only a few months old.
The problem was not a virus, or spyware or any other type of malware.
It was crapware.
When an average user goes to install or use a program, they don't know (or want to) read the EULA, select advanced, and carefully select what to include or not include.
Install Yahoo messenger. You now have Yahoo IM, Toolbar, and three other Yahoo applications.
Install Quicktime, you now have iTunes, Quicktime updater, and so forth.
Install Adobe PDF Reader, you now have Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition.
And any number of programs will install Google Toolbar too (Google's pushed Firefox, IrfanView, and many others).
An average user trying to bring a system to usability and install the things they need will find it ground to a halt with errors, incompatibilities and a half dozen unwanted applications vying to be the default for various file extensions.
Some of this corporate crapware is more persistent and difficult to remove and clean than most malware. Most malware can be removed by a simple scan (your favorite AV and AS), but crapware is legitimate, has very little documentation for manual removal, and more often than not, does not cleanly remove itself - instead intentionally leaving behind specific components.
One application refused to uninstall. It had an uninstall option, but the uninstall was grayed out. Nice. Another one nagged TWICE to simply "upgrade to a new version to fix any problems you might currently have with this program" before it would remove itself.
Two programs claimed removal but only removed the start menu shortcuts - something I have started to see become more common.
The biggest threat to Windows doesn't seem to be viruses or spyware anymore - it is crapware. Average users who avoid and are protected against viruses and spyware have no protection against crapware. The only defense against crapware is a rather large learning curve.
We may find it easy to keep our systems clean and running smooth, but the average user isn't having the easiest time. The bad guys want to destroy their data, the profit guys want to steal/spy their data, and the companies... the very ones they get their main programs from, the "trusted" guys are each wrestling for control over their systems, files and settings. - OmegaNine, on 10/12/2007, -3/+38Its the registry, it gets filled with crap from software that either doesn't uninstall itself right, or puts junk where it shouldn't. I hate to say it, but its not normally a MS issue, its some crappy spyware company, or no name software company that screws it up.
- DontSayFanboy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20"There are ways to get the OS back to a healthy state."
Why bother though? Repairing a busted OS is very time consuming and seems a bit like trying to unscramble an egg. It takes less than an hour to reinstall windows and it is a very straightforward procedure.
My advice to people is to simply put their OS on C: and all their apps/data on D:. There should be nothing on your C: drive that you aren't afraid to lose. I have had to maintain hundreds of windows desktops over the years for all sorts of clients and practically speaking, it is much less stressful to be in a position where you can reformat/reinstall and get back to a known good state FAST.
Telling someone "yeah, I can totally fix this" and spending the next few hours hunched over regedit and other repair programs and troubleshooting it is often way more trouble than it's worth. Then, of course, next time anything happens to their computer your 'fix' is called into question...... - BobMysterioso, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16This sounds like a neat idea, but I find when I do format, its a good time for some housecleaning including making sure I have the latest drivers for my various hardware.
I also check about to make sure my main apps are updated. - DontSayFanboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Amen.
I stopped helping people with their windows machines years ago for the same reasons. I have had people who compain of their systems being slow, but they scoff at the idea of adding more RAM. It would be too expensive, they say, and of course they have no intention of paying me for the time I put into their computer. Being the nice guy has it's disadvantages.
Then, naturally, any changes you make to their computer automatically sign you up as their 'computer guy'. The next time something doesn't print, they will ask you how come, or even worse, imply that something you did broke it.
These people, 9 times out of 10, have their systems so loaded up with crapware that it is painful to even try and help them. It's just not worth my time anymore. - RichesToRags, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13"Well if you're running Linux then you probably won't need to format... "
Ahhh, I see the ellipsis. Why you little instigator. - 1021, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11not that it matters but that's one ugly looking app though.
- jpaolini, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16And yet another first comment on a front-page story from a Linux fan boy.
We don't care if you use Linux, but if you're in the the 85% of the world's computer population who uses Windows, this might be useful. - andreo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@ chrono13
You've hit it right on the head. There are lots of software that I've passed on because the size of the install didn't match up to what the software was supposed to do. ie; Adobe reader having a 17 MB compressed install package just so you can read PDF files. Include the crap that they want to run all the time and at startup and you will bring even the fastest computer to its knees in no time.
For software that I simply can't substitute with something that is a bit easier on the computer or I don't know how it will effect the OS. I use virtual installs instead. So that way I can simply turn the install off and my computer is back to normal.
As for home users that tell me about how slow their computer is now. I don't even explain that the problem is most likely with them anymore. It takes to long and they normally still don't understand when I'm done. I also turn down any solicitations for help. Since I know that usually in a month or less they will be back in the same boat they were in before with either the same or different software. The reason for this is because of my pledge to attempt to avoid ***** whenever possible. Most people will see a difference when I'd done cleaning up their computers and I explain what programs were doing what to the OS. However there are those that will insist that I simply did not do the job right even though it was working fine when I was done with it.
So instead I will give them all the advise that they want to ask for. I will point them to resources that will help them out. I will even write up instructions on how to do something. And in the very rare case I will talk them through something. For example, I talked a lady through enabling Zero Wireless Configuration, setting up WPA encryption on two computers, and setting up her new router over the phone this weekend. She offered me 65 bucks to drive out there, but I had her setup over the phone in less time then it would have took to drive there alone. (and for those wondering, no, getting some sort of *extra* tip from this lady is not something I would like to even think about. And would be all the more reason not to step foot into her house). - jswensson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I'm not running Windows but I can see how this app could save people a lot of time.
- DontSayFanboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6nougat,
I would try booting from a knoppix CD and watch cardmgr probe the PCMCIA cards. I'm willing to bet that the BestData card is really just a common cheapo chipset that they re-branded and the dmesg output should give you a hint at what driver to use. - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6WTF? This MacBook doesn't taste anything like a Macintosh apple! It doesn't even taste like a book! I want my money back. :(
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5(sorry for the double post) ... @SCAdvanced: do you want to spend your time fixing a broken registry or OS? it doesn't matter who programs the software that fscks up your installation. The registry should be more robust so for that you can blame MS. The software vendor is to blame as well for not making their software robust and for not using the registry properly.
The point is that for someone who is clueless they won't go fixing their registry. They don't know that they even have a registry or what it is. The fact that you have to spend that much effort to keep a Windows install up and running nicely is a big part of what turned me away from Windows (when I have a choice anyway). That is not what the desktop experience should be like. Not for newbies, not for anyone. You can argue that it's possible to keep a Windows install up and running for 5 years and brag all you want but the fact is that a system that needs that much work to stay healthy for 5 years is flawed by design. - MrSpock, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4
1. Don't install 'toolbars' of any kind. (except maybe stumbleupon) If you HAVE to, them read the install dialogues carefully and uncheck the "crapware" as an earlier poster called it. If you can't uncheck the crapware, don't install it.
2. If you insist on "experimenting" with new progs all of the time, setup a dualboot config. Use one OS for testing and the other as your rock. Don't molest your rock!
3. After you install/uninstall software use a registry and temp file scrubber to remove unneeded files and registry entries.
P.S. www.ccleaner.com FTW! - codyman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I think its just better to keep a folder on your computer dedicated to drivers in their original downloaded state verses pulling them off a crapped up system.. thats my two cents...
- Fracture98, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Up and down?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I use Windows mainly, and it works just fine. I was just joking around with my first comment, everyone else is taking it seriously.
Jpaolini: one word: stfu.... - sh0k, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Man, this brings back memories of fixing computers for spare change and becoming intimately familiar with Driver Guide Toolkit. Over 3 years, 90% of all problems I encountered were driver-related.
*Licks Mac* - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@DontSayFanboy: I despise the term "fan boy" as well. Anyway that's irrelevant. There are some really valid points in this argument that should be brought to light.
One thing I really don't like about Windows is that in order to reinstall and get back to where you were takes much more than an hour. Your settings are scattered here and there in the registry, in files hidden all over the place. You must go through the installations for all your apps again. Dozens of bastard wizards asking you to click Next yet again, then Finish.
On Linux I backup /home/user and my user is backed up. I backup /etc (possible something in /var on a server) and you're good to do. Reinstalling apps is a breeze with a package manager because I can keep a list of all the packages I had installed and tell it to just do it in one go, leave it alone and come back later. Back up drivers? ... they come with the kernel so there's no need to back them up. [If you bring up 3D gfx drivers than you're just begging for me to point out that if they were in the kernel proper like the rest of the drivers then all the hassle about them would be eradicated.]
On Mac OS X you can backup /Users/username and that user is done. Applications are more or less in the same boat as Windows as some OS X apps require a wizard installer as well. Yes there are many that can be backed up straight from /Applications, but it's not always the case.
If you go around doing something stupid then you can fsck up ANY operating system and require a format and reinstallation. In my experience it's easiest to backup and restore your system's state and your personal files & settings on Linux.
just my 2ยข
edit @washcapsfan37: If you set these users up on Windows they use the admin account by default. on *nix they'd be regular joe users and they would not know how to change that. I'm not saying they wouldn't screw up the installation, just that they would really have to try on *nix (i've done it, trust me! ;-). - SCAdvanced, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7@dattaway
You don't always have to "REFORMAT THE ENTIRE DISK", especially in all caps like that. There are ways to get the OS back to a healthy state. I have ran an XP install for 5 years without reloading/reformatting. But the main problems do stem from software vendors that screw things up. And there is a repair function in Windows which does help with a lot of those problems. There are also registry editing programs that will search for bad registry keys and remove them. I have fixed many copies of Windows without totally reloading/reformatting the computer and they have continued to be fine with proper maintenance. - oreo2123, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6haha!! paying for software...good one!
- DontSayFanboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@nofxjunkee
good point. Restoring the OS and restoring the apps are two different things.
It is my experience that most people with hosed windows installations have gotten into that situation by installing way more applications than they need or even use. It certainly is time consuming to reinstall all the applications, which is why I consider format/reinstall to be that much more valuable. It trims the fat of old unused apps, forces the user to answer the question "now, which programs do you actually use" and demonstrates to them that a minimized system is easier to maintain and generally performs better. I haven't had to do this more than once or twice with most of my users, they naturally understand why fewer programs is sometimes better.
On the other hand, if you pull out your toolkit of cleaner programs and spend a bunch of time navigating through complex screens that the user has never seen before and then tell them "THERE, It's fixed!" the user walks away from that experience with the notion that fixing computers is for experts and they know who to call next time they have a problem they've never seen before. You'll never hear the end of it. Plus, they will still have all the old ***** programs installed that are not used and only cause confusion and other problems.
So, sadly, I have to consider a reformat/reinstall to be a perfectly valid maintenance task for many home windows users. I'm going to do this for my nephew's aging Toshiba laptop this weekend, actually. - nogami, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Here's my routine (it works pretty well):
Last time I upgraded my computer, I did a clean install of Windows, along with a dozen or so applications I commonly use (read: would be re-installing anyway). After activating it (ya, it's legit), I used Acronis True Image to save a compressed image of the entire partition (about 6gb). That's stored either on my server, or on a firewire HD.
Then I went ahead and installed all of my other junk and used the system for a year or so.
When it started to bog-down a bit, I took another snapshot of the entire system partition (compressed image was about 40gb). Then I restored my "clean" partition image, updated all of the windows patches for the intermediate 12 months, installed new drivers, etc. Then took another image-snapshot and saved that one overtop of my previous "installed-clean" image.
Then I mounted the compressed image pre-wipe, recovered all of my documents and settings.
All told, a complete reinstall took about 2 hours, and my system is fairly heavily customized and runs a webserver, mailserver, ftpserver, and a ton more. Doing it the "normal" way would've likely taken a full day to get it back the way I want it. The only annoying part is that Acronis still hasn't quite perfected their bootable linux CD, so it took a fair amount of wrestling with BIOS/command line options to make it boot properly (I've since made a BartPE bootable CD with the Acronis plugin which is apparently much more stable).
I keep a small text file in a directory with my "clean" image with notes of "stuff to do" the next time I do a clean install, so it's reasonably up-to-date.
N. - kevth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It doest get ALL the drivers for you. Just the ones listed in the picture. If it got ALL of them, then it would be useful.
With more work it would be a great tool.
Ill still digg it. - emeidi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I switched from Windows 2000 to Mac OS X 10.3 in April 2004 and more than two years later, I still don't see a need for reformatting. I don't want to imagine how my Windows PC would feel like after two and a half years of everyday use: It must be verrry slow.
Nevertheless, this tool is a must-have for PC supporters if their company doesn't have standardized images for their boxes and/or there are a lot of workstation from different manufacturers. - Nougat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There's this WLAN PCCard I have, made by BestData. According to their site, it doesn't exist. I managed somehow to get it working in Windows XP with some Compaq/Samsung driver that I found somewhere. My dumb ass didn't save the driver file or remember where the driver can be found. Now I want to put the thing in another machine - would have been nice to have this then, but that machine is long gone now.
- Sapperlite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Anyone here use imaging software to create an image of your system? Set up your system the way you want, then create an image. Later when your system starts to choke re-image and your done in like 20 minutes. I use Norton Ghost.
- gotamd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This could be incredibly useful provided you don't really care about getting the latest drivers.
- ToeCheese, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@OmegaNine,
Agreed but Adobe's thrashing of the Registry is the worst! - NTolerance, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I wonder if this would be handy in stripping out the bloated mess that a lot of drivers have, like worthless startup EXEs and such. All I really want are the appropriate INI, SYS, ...etc files.
- cquinnd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Microsoft already has. It is one of the new features being debuted with Vista.
The OS can seperate User registry entries into a virtual tree that remains unconnected to the system registry. - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I agree with Bob, but in any case it's a neat tool to quickly see what drivers you need to check for updates. No matter which way you use it it can be a useful app, dugg.
- fix8ed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1ccleaner is awesome...and free!
- Breeder18, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1awww man! this would have been great 2 days ago lol, I have been going through hell getting drivers and everything working right again...
- salinemist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I don't need it since all of my win boxes have a "drivers" directory". :-)
- oreo2123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2or you could just use windriver ghost...which has been around for ages...
http://www.majorgeeks.com/WinDriver_Ghost_d1744.html - crcurran, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2That's cool but WinDriver Ghost costs $22. Good option but you should declare that when comparing it against a free program.
- SmackMyMac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1There are a couple of devices that I can't obtain drivers for any longer on my pc. (like my dxr3 Decoder board) This will be a great help. Thanks for posting.
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Oh my dear god, that sounds even worse than just having HKLM and HKCU. ***** the registry. ***** it up its stupid ass.
- Kahnza, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I think Microsoft should look into different ways of handling things like the registry. Some way thats self healing, so it doesn't succumb to the registry getting bloated and corrupt. Fast and efficient. Being able to have 99.999% uptime, even under heavy use/abuse would be nice. I wonder if computers will finally get that reliable and durable in the next decade or two?
- fix8ed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The app may fit some re-install applications (i.e. business PCs if an image isn't available), but I usually take the time to get any new drivers if I'm reformatting the home PC. Either way, may be handy down the road.
- bc9am, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2What's the next dig going to be? Remember to look both ways when crossing the road?
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1lol ... "computers" can stay up for years without decaying into oblivion. the dream is possible, it's just a little more difficult with Windows than say one of the BSDs.
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html
but yeah the registry is an abomination that unfortunately is too massive to be slain by anyone at Microsoft. It would take some sort of amalgamation of Steve Ballmer and a dragon to take it out now. - acesomeone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@codyman
I agree. I also prefer creating a directory with the original installation files upfront. It saves you the work & you'll have the most up to date versions. - klitscher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I, too, like CCleaner...but even then it wants you to install Yahoo toolbar...
- nogami, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've been using the Altiris virtualization system for testing new software - it puts anything you install inside a "bubble" that prevents it from modifying your host operating system. It's pretty small and extremely handy for trying out shareware programs that might leave "crap" behind in your registry or on your HD somewhere.
They were offering a free version at one time, not sure if it's still available or not.
N. - feaks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Damn, i reinstalled like one hour ago. Could have been useful...
- tablatronix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1hah I have to reformat and reinstall 4 laptops sitting right next to me. Im going to try this, I could care less about new drivers, im not getting paid. Who knows if they are all even still available elsewhere.
Laptop drivers suck. - rtini, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Imagine if game consoles required the amount of maintenance that Windows does?
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