What is Digg?201 Comments
- StealthGod, on 10/12/2007, -4/+72I'm one of the few developers in the world that can say that they worked on a PS3 launch title. I can honestly back this article and I agree with every statement. I can say that the development tools for the PS3 are better than they were for the PS2. SN Systems is coming out with some good stuff. However, they are still nowhere near as good as the tools for the 360.
PS3 looks good on paper, but the 360 is just so much easier to make games for. That being said, this was the same story for the PS2 vs XBox. - gronne, on 10/12/2007, -9/+75I thought the XNA platform was making development much easier. It would also make sense that the PS3 would be harder because the "cell" platform is so obscure.
- laplie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+68XBox and XBox 360 are programmable using Visual Studio (best IDE for windows, period) and DirectX. Programmers are very familiar with DirectX because that's the API they use to make windows games (for the most part).
People say "XBox is a small PC not a console" because many of the games that come out for it also come out for the pc. But the real reason is that since both use the same APIs, its very easy to port from PC to XBox and vice-versa.
The "external HD-DVD drive is better" argument is a bit shaky though. - philski, on 10/12/2007, -4/+48maybe, but check out what ID Software (Carmack weighs in on this one) has to say about New Gen development: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=149299&skip=yes
- dveight, on 10/12/2007, -6/+42He was referring to the fact that with the Xbox 360, you watch HD-movies on one drive and play games on another, whereas with the PS3, you are doing both with the same drive, so it stands to reason that yes, you are putting much more use into the PS3's drive.
With the PS3, regardless of what how its drive dies (and it will since all drives die eventually), you will be forced to buy a whole new unit, where as with the Xbox 360, you will be replacing either the Xbox console, or just the the HD-player. Hell, if your premium Xbox 360 dies, all you need to do is buy just the core system and transplant the HDD. - seanmac, on 10/12/2007, -7/+41Most programmors I no cant spell wroth carp.
- socket, on 10/12/2007, -14/+46This guy knows what he's talking about. He makes a lot of good points.
- thebaron2, on 10/12/2007, -2/+34From the ID article that philski linked to:
" This will mark the first time that Id will develop a Wolfenstein away from the PC, but developer John Carmack is keen to put gamers at ease, claiming that "the Xbox 360 is the first console that I've ever worked with that actually has development tools that are better for games than what we've got for the PC."
I agree that this particular article seems biased, due mostly to the fact that the author glosses over anything uber-technical, most likely because it will go over most of our heads, but there isn't really a way to tell. If EITHER system was genuinely easier to program for and the dev. was being honest, anyone that disagreed would still call it biased. What I find interesting is that I've seen many articles touting the ease with which you can program for 360, but nothing out of the PS3 camp. There was actually a very in-depth article - completely lost me as I'm not a programmer and it was VERY technical - that was on Digg awhile back that came to the same conclusions as this one: while on paper PS3's numbers are higher, the actual architecture and what-not on the 360 make it much easier to program for.
Anyone have links to articles claiming otherwise, also written by self-proclaimed developers? I'd like to see someone argue the other side. - Jaymoon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+33I know nothing about game development, but even I can figure out that if you scratch the back's of the people making games for your console... they scratch yours in return with good games, and continued development.
- socket, on 10/12/2007, -6/+36Yes, but if you read the whole article you would pick up on the fact he speaks like a software engineer. But that would be lost on the average Digg reader.
- Qenton, on 10/12/2007, -5/+35Having once been a game developer, there were things in there makes it so that the writer probably is a game developer.
I know that developing quickly and efficiently is one of the most important thing for a console. Nothing frustrates programmers more than bad tools. When you have a great development system it is easy to figure out the bugs and get things running. - alarion, on 10/12/2007, -4/+31"You are right on the money, also, if this was written by a developer they may have said something a little more technical that the fact that the 3 cpu's on the xbox 360 are easier to program than the 8 on the PS3...no *****!"
Oh you mean, something like:
"The XBOX 360 is also far faster to develop for due to better development tools (massively popular Visual Studio .NET vs. proprietary, buggy PS3 compiler and debugger), better documentation, and easier architecture (3 general purpose CPU’s vs. 8 specialized processors that require DMA)."
or maybe
"he 360 also has a clever new way rendering high definition anti aliased back buffers. To accomplish the same effect on PS3 is prohibitively expensive. For this reason I think many games will have no choice but to run in non-HD resolutions on the PS3 version, use a lower quality anti aliasing technique, or do back buffer upscaling. The end result in all cases is going to be noticeably worse image quality." - totorototoro, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26"The answer may surprize you"
Uh, anyone paying any attention to the whole next-gen console development thing knows most developers (from Carmack & Rein on down) prefer the Xbox360 environment over the PS3-esp. PC developers. - Cougaboy, on 10/12/2007, -6/+26FTA:
"The XBOX 360 is also far faster to develop for due to better development tools (massively popular Visual Studio .NET vs. proprietary, buggy PS3 compiler and debugger), better documentation, and easier architecture (3 general purpose CPU’s vs. 8 specialized processors that require DMA)."
So yes, he does talk about developing for the platforms.
And honestly, as a layperson, I could care less about linux on my PS3. I want it to play games and play movies. Period. - Cougaboy, on 10/12/2007, -6/+23I'm normally a grammar nazi as well, but honestly, the guy's a programmer, not a professional writer.
Get past the spelling and look at the content. - jobeus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20Why is this answer surprising? Has no one been reading digg for the past 6 months?
- Jaymoon, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21It's not even available yet.... Nor is the site even down...
??? - Topaz, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20I'm pretty sure movies are actually a lot harder than games on consoles.
- g3buz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14@laplie: re: the HD-DVD drive. Both my xbox1 and my ps2 optical drives died, leaving the console worthless. The PS2 within a year, the xbox within 2.
I think his argument that movie playing is unnecessary stress on the optical drive - while something I hadn't really considered - is therefore quite valid. Design your game machines to play games, let other things handle the movie playing. - republikdh, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17This article may be passed off as fan boy nonsense but I have read countless articles now from both large and small developers who say hands down the XBOX360 is easier to program for than Playstation 3 and as a result this could sway what titles are seen on what systems-
- Memitim, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Heh, I work desktop support in a game studio. Some programmers' trouble tickets border on heiroglyphics. ;)
- TonyCubed, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Well, that opinion/comment was bias then, wasn't it? *sighs*
- Dalrek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Well, another bonus to the external drive is if Blu-ray does win the format war, MS can just release an external BD drive.
- oliofactor, on 10/12/2007, -6/+17@Microdot
Ahhh... look ok so the fact of the matter is that it seems to me that when you look at the MASS amount of people saying good things about the Wii/XBOX360 significantly out way anyone defending the PS3. And this week G4 Pissed me off because all day long on the PS3 launch day they were praising the PS3 almost solely of teleprompters. They kept saying that "EVERYONE WANTS A PS3!". >NO, not everyone is excited about a PS3.
I'm beginning to think that the people who like the PS3 are still living with their rich parents and have never had to do an ounce of work to purchase something they want. Me on the other hand i make good money at a real job, and have real world problems to think about.
so when i look at the PS3 which wont be worth anything for two years (final fantasy 13 [which is the only game out of the many Ive seen that i have any interest for]), or the wii which i don't have to sell my clothes or furniture to buy. The less costly system which is affordable NOW and games which are fun NOW and aren't graphically glitchy NOW, is innovative and intriguing NOW, seems to be a better buy seeing as if i have to use my own money. Seems to me the excitement around the PS3 follows from people buying the system to sell for 3000 dollars on eBay. now that i mention it CRAP i should have gotten one. - dougm68, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11spelling is overrated.
jsut put leertts tgother colse so poplee can unstanerd.
got it? - aleishman, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15The "M$" got you a "down digg", sorry.
- dgritsko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I agree - up until very recently, I hadn't even considered getting any of the "next gen" systems (PS3, Wii, or Xbox 360). But honestly, the more I've seen and heard about the 360 the more I like it. The fact that it can be used as a media extender. Xbox Live. Halo 3 coming out next year. A year's worth of development already behind us. HD-DVD addon. And now this article... I don't know if I'll be able to hold out much longer!
- Lain1k, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12I think it was more referring to a new technology. When PS2 came out DVD drives were new. They weren't built to last, they were built just to play DVDs. Now over the years they have made DVD players more durable and reliable. Sony is doing the same thing with Blu-ray, a new technology that hasn't been mass produced on this scale. He is making an assumption that it will suffer the same complication that most first gen players suffer. It may and it may not (I'm putting my money on probably will).
Xbox 360 has the external HD-DVD drive, which is also new. So he is putting the same situation for that to. He thinks its gonna crap out quicker then one that you would buy 2-3 years from now. But he points out that you wont have to buy another console for the drive. When that happens the HD-Players will cost, he estimates, 90-150$, cheaper then 300-500$ (hoping they go down in price) for a new ps3.
I wouldn't say its bias, I would say from his predictions he thinks Xbox 360 is overall better. Which means if everything turns out the way he thinks it will. Now that isn't always the case.
But that's what I got from the article. - MechaFenris, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13By the time the developers figure out the tricks to make stellar PS3 games, will the gamers be still patiently waiting?
I don't believe they will. The 360 isn't tapped yet either... and with the head start it has got, Sony's going to have to wow people sooner, or the gaming public will just ignore it.
It's happened before... technical superiority has lost out to mass appeal and better penetration. (not saying the PS3 is superior... but you get the point.)
I've not yet seen the PS3 in action (besides grainy web videos), so I can't say where it will end. Sony hyped the living snot out of the PS2 and under-delivered something awful. :)
We'll see if it's just Sony's penchant for hyperbole or if they really do have a powerhouse on their hands next year... since this year's simply a wash with the severely limited supply. - JoelTheGeek, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I've been programming professionally for 6 years now. Some of it was game development (for PalmOS). Crappy IDE's, compilers, debuggers, etc. greatly delay product development and quality. I haven't worked with Codewarrior for PalmOS in years, but when I used it (on Windows) it sucked bad! It was a port from Mac that went poorly. Visual Studio .NET is a mixed blessing itself (2005 for WinForms - blech!).
While I can't comment on the quality of the PS3 development tools, all I can say is that if rumours of Sony's poor dev. tools quality is true, and XBox 360 is that much better, I'm sure it will be reflected in future development. - MechaFenris, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I actually was skeptical of the 360 at launch, being disappointed by the game selection for the Xbox (I mostly played sports games and the few RPGs that existed on it...) but the 360 has been much better... What a difference a year makes.
The live arcade is my favorite place to waste a few minutes (to an hour or more...)... I can't believe I'm saying it, but the 360 is a home run. ;) Having been a PS2/Gamecube snob for so long.... I just don't have any interest in the PS3 right now... .but the Wii... again, that retro virtual arcade... it's calling me :)
We'll see in a year if the PS3 rebounds like the 360 did. :) - MikeZila, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Dead Rising, Gears of War, Project Gotham 3, Halo 3, etc.
Talking out of your ass. - Sartori, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I'm currently working on PS3, have worked on PS2, Xbox, PSP, and a little bit of GC and PC.
I'm not a tech specialist, in programming terms. I write game logic and higher level systems. The majority of programmers on projects I've worked on do the same (the tools and tech guys are often a totally separate team, or a small section of the main team). For me, the platform I'm writing often doesn't matter a bit. All those platforms I've coded for were in Visual Studio, with third party debuggers where needed. Barring a couple of compiler bugs and dodgy pre-release stuff for testing, no platform was significantly easier to develop for *at the gameplay level* where it really makes a difference to how much fun a game is.
I'm sure the 360 dev environment is good, and MS were a pleasure to deal with in terms of developer support, documentation and so on when I worked on Xbox stuff. But low-level programmers aside there's no essential difference in how you make games on any platform, all the way from PS3 to mobile phones. Team sizes and scope are all that changes. - rheaume, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I work with all these systems and from what I hear (I'm in art), the PS3 is much more difficult, as the PS2 was, thats why Renderware middleware was popular, it smooths out development.
On a personal note, I think ill go 360 for myself at home and wait at least a year before going ps3, if at all. - socket, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9It can't be that far off considering both wal-mart.com and walmart.com go to the same place.
- hurfydurfur, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11He does make some very good points. Sony pays for the launch but in the end is like the PS2. It will be exploited later. Tried and true technology makes for a great launch (see Wii) but there's a trade-off, which is lifespan. The Wii has a great launch, easy to create but it's going to fall behind. The Wii isn't going to last for 6 years like the PS2 did. But then again, it's not $600. MS will probably mitigate this by shortened release cycles. Like a 360 version 2 with integrated HD-DVD, digital video out, analog buttons (not just analog shoulders) and making Live free.
Nintendo has done this with their handhelds. GBA -> GBA SP -> DS -> DS Lite. Wii with DVD later, fast refresh. Sony had the PS2 out in 2000 and they want the PS3 to last 6 years (speculation). So far I haven't been impressed with the PS3 but then I think about the trade-off. It's existing tech versus innovation (and I don't mean Wii's interface design innovation). Sony is paying for taking the leap, the hard question is if it was a smart move. All of a sudden I have my doubts. I find out that the PS3 is running an NV47, I see Motorstorm in person. It looks pretty grim for Sony right now, but that's all.
I think about how the 360 feels unfinished. The very relied upon Gears of War was fun but I finished it in 3 days for $60? Believe me, it was a really fun ride with the best co-op in a decade. I need to check out the online portion to get my money's worth I think. But somehow I feel like everyone was talking up Gears of War to death and at the end of the day it felt like a shooter for frat-boys. The scene where they talk about dysentery? What? Poop jokes? I loved the underground lava maps, almost worth the price. I guess it comes down to preference. Some people think Gran Turismo is boring compared to PGR3 while other people like the serious subtleties of HL2 compared to Halo2. So do what you like. Maybe you like poop jokes or maybe it exhausts you because it doesn't make you think.
I'm simply a firm believer that software hates bloat, no matter the brand or space. EA, Oracle, IBM, MS and Sony are all bloated. Nintendo and Apple are small so they can deliver the innovation (not that either Apple or Nintendo have won). Elephants can't mambo. But Nintendo and Apple can't make Media Centers happen like MS can. The little guys can't push a new disc format ... and maybe that's a good thing. So although Sony might seem super stupid to many, I'm keeping my head on my shoulders and thinking about the long-term. Which is the reality anyway since I won't find a PS3 on shelves until 2008. :) - darkstar949, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Honestly I think it will boil down to what type of games you want to play - the Playstation has historically had a strong showing of high profile RPGs than the XBOX which has historical had a stronger showing of high profile FPS games. For a lot of people this is a major selling point for a console.
- thebaron2, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8It's about $4.15 per month, completely worth it in my book. And while I agree that there aren't MANY great games, there are a fair amount, although it's a bit disappointing for having been out for an entire year already. My favs at this point are probably Gears of War, Fight Night 3, Burnout, Oblivion (actually a bit too big and overwhelming for me), and Ghost Recon (although the replay value on GR isn't that great, IMO).
Still, there is definitely more than ONE really good game, unless your taste in games is just ridiculously narrow and you hate ANYTHING outside of that range.
FWIW, I was planning on buying a PS3 after the initial craze - no way I'm sitting in line for it - but after the mediocre reviews and bad press it's gotten I'm really waiting to see how they handle their online modes. It's great that it's a free system, but you often get what you pay for, so I'm hesitant. Still a good chance of me picking one up, but it's not a lock anymore, as it was 4-6 months ago. - abcdefghiJJ, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@TubaTechno
"Sony did not activate the PS3’s online service until just before the Friday debut."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/20/arts/20game.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
he is refering to sony's version of xbox live - fatalfury, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Xbox had some great RPGs as well (KOTOR, Jade Empire etc.)
- ToRoE, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I just renewed my yearly L!ve account for $35.00. (hop on any on-line price finder for a deal, and the code is e-,mailed so no shipping.) so make that $2.92 a month. Racing against the world, from my living room, while bragging about my achievements and sending messages from my PC or the system, along with an invite or chat from any game TO any game is well worth it, even at full price!
Not having a centralized friends list or way to communicate means you get exactly what you pay for with a PS-3, It s worth NOTHING! - yournamehere, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5historically yes, but since Square and their ilk stopped developing for only Sony things are different this time around
- Gerz1219, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Umm, except it apparently does make sense in this case, because it is easier to develop games for the 360. It is also very easy to port PC games back and forth. I agree with the main point in this article -- games will be developed for the PC and 360 and ported to the PS3, negating any theoretical advantage for the Cell processor.
- csimpkins, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7It's ok everyone, ownage2103 promises us that this guy isn't a game developer.
Phew. - archiesteel, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11"the answer may surprize you!"
Uh, no. It's on digg, therefore I was 99% certain that it would be pro-Xbox360.
The PS3 *is* more difficult to develop for, but I think the developer is exaggerating
Disclaimer: I work in the console game industry, but I am not a programmer. I do know that programmers find it more difficult, but not any more than they did the PS2 when it came out. - davidod87, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"This offers a unique perspective, and the answer may surprize you!"
Not really. I was expecting that the PS3 would be difficult to develop for, just like the PS2, what with its non-generic CPU that's difficult to design for. It'd be easier for everyone if Sony just threw in a Core 2 Quadro, make a loss for the first two years, then make a profit as the price of that CPU drops over the years. - vdog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3And then there's Mass Effect for the 360.
- rheaume, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Best quotes:
"This guy is DEFINITELY not a software developer. I promise you he has no idea what he's talking about"
Followed by
"I do not develop for the PS3 or 360" - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4The reason the PS range has always been troublesome to develop on is for the simple fact that Sony want to make games on their platforms as difficult to port to other systems as possible so they don't lose their developers and their exclusives.
Its really as simple as that!
MS on the other hand, uses open, tried and proven developmental techniques, apps and tools which make it far easier for game developers to just do their job without needing to bother about badly written tools that need workarounds and re-learning to use properly. - OrangeTide, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4none of the consoles in the past have been easy to develop for either. I suspect PS3 is about average. while the 360 is exceptionally easy to devel for. The PS2, Gamecube, SNES, etc were all pretty average (quirky compilers, difficult APIs, etc) yet people managed to make good games on them any way.
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