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29 Comments
- terranaut, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17Until a Vista OS'ed PC manufacturer receives CableLABS verification for a model with a cablecard interface, there would be little point in making such model available as:
Most Cablecos will not install into a non-CL verified device.
The cablecard will bind itself to the hardware id of the verified device and will not work in a different unit. So borrowing a friends Series 3 TiVo for when the installer comes around, then swapping the cable card he left behind into your PC will not work. - AgntOrnge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9This "issue" was known a long time ago and has nothing to do with Vista but CableLABS certification process. So no, I wasn't eagerly awaiting the release as I already knew it wouldn't do what I wanted from a MCE perspective.
- xienze, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Well, all the channels have a copy flag set on them: "copy freely", "copy once", and "copy never". Premium channels are supposed to be set to "copy never", meaning you can't copy them over Firewire. If you can, it's an oversight that your cable company will eventually correct. Also, if you want to change channels via MCE, you have to use an IR relay, which is hackish.
What CableCARD devices allow you to do is skip the cable company receiver and simply use some other device to display the signal. This also means that premium channels won't be restricted to the device you're viewing them on. Also, some day when CableCARD 2.0 comes out, there will be bidirectional support, so you can control all those special features (like on-demand movies) via your device (MCE, in this case). - brjndr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Tivo service cost between $19.95 and $12.95 a month, depending on the length of your contract, which is from 1-3 years. A $199 (1 year, pre-paid) minimum needs to be added to that hardware price, and the units are pretty crappy without the service, the service is the whole reason you buy a Tivo.
Media center has no monthly service fees. I switched because of the service fees, and I plan to get a cablecard tuner (ATI demo'd an external one at CES) when I can.
Even though there are no monthly service fees, the media center guide, search, and record features are still robust. I'm looking forward to seeing what new features Vista offers. - Topher06, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Also, how many Mac's have cable card support??? Leopard probably won't offer support for CableCard either as Apple will want you to buy the shows from iTMS.
- andreo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+33500 bucks is just way way to much to spend. I'm sorry. I love gadgets and new technology to a fault. If it sounds cool enough and I can find a use for something I will at the very least give it a try.
I was also a very strong backer of Media Center. I still think it's a great way to time shift shows but the entire cable card thing really left a sour taste in my mouth. I know it's not the fault of Microsoft it's the cable companies that made this rule up about certified equipment.
I even for a while thought about buying a pre-certified Media Center PC so I could use the cable card technology. But then after thinking about it longer it dawned on me. I'm already getting bent over pretty nicely by the cable company just for regular digital cable. After talking to them about upgrading to a HD package I knew that I wasn't going to stick around with them. The fees and charges just kept adding up. 12 bucks for the HD, 15 bucks for the box or 5 bucks for the card (I would need 2 so 10 bucks total), 5 bucks for some digital gateway fee, and on and on.
I just ended up going back to Directv and getting their box. Also they are supposed to be bringing out Directv turner card in the future. So cable lost my business not only because of their prices, but also because they think everyone wants to steal content from them.
Their loss. My gain of savings around 15 bucks a month with more channels and better picture. And soon to be way more HD channels. - spalVl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2>>So you're telling me I can not get a digital tuner
You can but you cannot receive encrypted channels such as HBO and Discovery HD. Some channels the Cable companies cannot encrypt (such as those available OTA) if they do encrypt them they are breaking the law and a quick report to the FCC may light a fire under them to fix.
You don't need Vista MCE though to get non encrypted QAM MythTV, SageTV, and other software media centres can recieve too. - Topher06, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Is this a Microsoft problem?
From what I can see, CableCard support is a fantasy and not used in many markets. There is lots of stuff out there adding the slot for it, but where are the freaking cards? Digital Cable and HD is so f*cked up with so many industry "standards" that its no wonder there are not available 3rd party devices for doing DVR or HD viewing. This is the way the cable companies want it, they don't want your TV/PC to support digital cable and HD natively, they want you to buy or rent a box to support it, so they can control the price.
More anti-Microsoft FUD. This is the cable industries problem, the moment someone figures out how to force cable companies to let go of their monopoly on digital cable and HD content, then Microsoft will be there to quickly support it.
Having said that, that is why Microsoft is investing in IPTV. They can by-pass the mess that is digital cable and instead offer HD content through your broadband connection, screw the cable companies out of their own monopoly. - junger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Niveus Media and Vidabox are two media center manufacturers who will begin shipping CableCard-enabled boxes this month. They're not cheap, but they will be available.
- honer123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Unless these manufacturers come in at prices at or below $1500, I don't see them selling anyways. When Series 3 Tivo cost's ~$600 these days, it is very hard to justify paying 3 times the price for another Cable Card capable unit. I myself hope I can pick one up for $1000 or so to utilize with my Xbox360's, but am willing to live without DiscoveryHD etc... if they come in as high as I suspect they will.
- xienze, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I wouldn't even bother buying one of these things when they become available.
First off, CableLabs will not let you buy a standalone CableCARD interface peripheral. No, you have to buy an entire system, and you just know they're not going to be cheap (in the "take an existing PC and throw a peripheral on it" sense). There's some sort of nasty protection scheme whereby the motherboard has to have some trusted computing chip on it, a pairing process that means CableLabs will have to be made aware of your machine, etc. Anything you record on that machine can only be played back on that machine.
As soon as I heard all of that, my enthusiasm dwindled dramatically. I'll stick with the awful cable company DVR. Compared to the CableCARD PC offerings, it's a downright "open" platform. - just101, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Installed a cable card for a ati beta box 6 months ago. I wasn't even aware of a cable card adapter for Vista MCE until that point. Very good product though. Took CP auth and EMM's faster than most TVs. No Tiling or QAM issues to speak of.
- Barovelli, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1There is a Vista MCE training video on the C* Intranet showing the cable card install process. Nothing special, insert card, go to paring info screen, write down numbers, etc. But the fact that the cable company is aware of them and sending out training BEFORE deployment is a notable event.
- honer123, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Yeah, they are well above $3500 starting, which is almost rape in my book.
- junger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1ATI manufactures a digital cable receiver (read: CableCard unit) that can be attached to any Vista PC over USB. Niveus also has a digital cable receiver (2 CableCard slots) that is designed for Vista PCs. The guys there say they haven't tested it with other company's products, but theoretically it should work.
- pwndrew, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1MCE 2005 can record all HD channels via firewire out of the comcast HD reciever. I've been running this setup for over a year. I don't understnad what vista has to offer that is better?
- cmurph, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You would get a TiVo Series 3 instead of hassling with Vista/OCUR/CableCard/CableLABS/ATI/DRM/MediaCenter/etc because of msbc's point:
Because it works. Today. - honer123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Agreed with the service fees viewpoint, but there comes a point where a Media Center PC with Cable Card support at $3000-$4000 doesn't come even close to a Tivo with 3-5 years of subscription fees $600 + 3-5 years ($600-$1000). I would still have enough money to buy a good HDTV if I went the Tivo Series 3 route. It's not like you can go buy a Cable Card tuner from ATI and upgrade your current Vista PC to cable card support so you have only these two choices (or your cable company's DVR, also the cheapest route).
I really hope companies like Dell come out with Vista boxes that are just basic cases with hard drives and ATI Cable Card tuners for the $1000-$1500 price range. - honer123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Lets hope they are under $1000. I am just stating what is currently the price. Since nobody else has announced one, it's hard to tell how cheap they will be. But I am willing to bet that each cable card tuner will come at a premium. MCE analog and ATSC tuners can be had for $60-70 dollars. The ATI ones will come at a price much higher to companies like Dell.
- uncleboogie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Why would I buy a TiVo 3 for $800 and then have to pay per month? I just want to get rid of my overpriced cable boxes and the DVR charge. But the cable co's want to drag ass and make cable card support a pain in the ass. Hey Cox!(*****) Verizon is starting to run fiber in my area and I'm sick of your strangle hold.
- AgntOrnge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Basically you can get over-the-air HD channels on your MCE (but you must have at least one analog tuner as well as the digital tuner)"
Same requirement as MCE 2005
"I've heard there is a way to get it over Firewire if your cablebox has enabled firewire ports but haven't tried it."
There is but it is for the DVR only. It also records in HD and SD since it doesn't always work. Not a bad little thing though for HD recording. - awp0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@pwndrew
Because you either live in a market with no 5c protection or you don't subscribe to any premium channels. The vast majority of MCE users cannot record premium channels over firewire. - xienze, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I read about ATI's offering. In fact, that's where I saw the information about how you CAN'T buy it standalone.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070109-8576.html
"The new TV Wonder needs Vista Home Premium or Vista Ultimate to operate. In addition, it requires an OCUR (OpenCable Unidirectional Receiver)-certified PC. Kreiner said that OCUR-enabled PCs must have an OCUR flag in the motherboard BIOS indicating that the system meets OCUR requirements.
AMD's Digital Cable Tuner will only be available from PC manufacturers, and then only with a new Vista PC. There are no plans for support on Windows XP, nor are there any plans to sell the Digital Cable Tuner as a standalone product." - Miso117, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1So you're telling me I can not get a digital tuner, like the new line Hauppauge just came out with, and throw it into my HTPC? Vista will not work with it?
I was considering upgrading my unit and installing my Home Premium Vista on it.
Good thing I read this, I would have wasted a lot of time and money... - medric, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0after all that wonderful info now i am just waiting for the darn thing for everyone to stop lying and fulfill their promises
- MajorBlud, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0@Miso117
I just had a bad experience with HD over Vista MCE. I switched from MCE 2005 hoping that Vista MCE would be better, and for the most part it is....but the lack of proper HD support really sucks. Basically you can get over-the-air HD channels on your MCE (but you must have at least one analog tuner as well as the digital tuner) and the only way to get HD cable is to have a CableCARD. I've heard there is a way to get it over Firewire if your cablebox has enabled firewire ports but haven't tried it. I ended up spending the few extra bucks a month to rent an HD DVR instead and I'm happy with that.
I don't think that the lack of HD support is something we can totally blame MS for, I think they are really just getting hamstrung by the cable companies who are freakin' out about piracy. - awp0, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Niveus has been selling MCE machine for $3000+ for years now. This has nothing to do with CableCARD.
On the other hand, Dell has been selling MCE machine for well under $1000 for years. Once they get their act together and start selling CableCARD equipped MCE machines, I believe you'll see models for less than $1000.
I do not think there's reason to believe all CableCARD machines will be selling for $3k+ as Honer continues to imply. - msbc, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1TiVo Series 3, ftw! Two CableCARDS in one box.
And it works. Today. - monergism, on 10/12/2007, -18/+7Buried.
Call the waaambulance.
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