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220 Comments
- neoform, on 10/12/2007, -9/+243The guy running http://09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0.com/
wont like this news.. - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -6/+231Ahem:
1) Duh. We already knew this would happen the second the new number was released.
2) That doesn't mean older HD-DVD titles aren't still supported. The number is still useful for them. You want to scrap DeCSS just because it won't work with HD-DVD titles at all? Moron.
3) New key already in the works. The professor is right, but partially mistaken.
4) Note to diggers: One story on the next number will be enough, thank you. - ousthouse, on 10/12/2007, -9/+17000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
dang.
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01
dang.
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02
dang. - mattmcm, on 10/12/2007, -13/+140@Fordi (#6482849) said: "4) Note to diggers: One story on the next number will be enough, thank you."
Amen to that. - krinthekuz, on 09/16/2008, -11/+1343 weeks for them to get a new key out... 3 hours later it's on the front page of digg again.
- shiftt, on 10/12/2007, -17/+126Why couldn't THIS story make it to the front page two days ago? We could've avoided yesterday's debacle.
- chaosmachine, on 10/12/2007, -7/+79"the number" is symbolic, more than anything. like others have said, it's not about a number.
- intent, on 10/12/2007, -13/+85New number being found in 5...4...3...2...1...
- sishgupta, on 10/12/2007, -13/+74A lot of people are missing the true point of yesterday. Censorship was a subpoint imho.
We will NOT stand for DRM. In the end it only hinders the true value of the product for the people who pay for it.
The number will be cracked again and again and again.
It does not matter what they do or for how long they do it, we will fight this.
Either way big business is going to lose. With DRM, pirates crack and still get the content, and legit users are left with broken media pushing more to pirated versions. Without DRM, everything can be copied, everyone gets access, pirates still don't pay and legit users get a more valuable product.
Big Business needs to figure out which they prefer. Screwing everyone including themselves, or screwing no one (for a change).
Rational people think at the margin. I don't think DRM supporters are thinking at the margin. Take from that what you will. - bctrainers, on 10/12/2007, -7/+68Will be amusing to see if the new key will be cracked out of the woodwork.
- john2kx, on 10/12/2007, -15/+74the number is dead, long live the number.
- Scheissen, on 10/12/2007, -5/+59Note to Fordi: It was one story before the deletion.
- iluvatar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+57"le roi est mort, vive le roi!" is what the French would say every time a king died and a new king was crowned. It means "The king is dead, long live the king". The concept was that the transfer of power was instantaneous and there was never a moment in which the people were without a king.
(seriously, guys... open up a history book sometime instead of blindly burying anything that doesn't exist inside your own little world) - pysgard, on 10/12/2007, -7/+45You people are morons. RTFA.
The number is not dead. This article was written April 16th. - jetpig, on 10/12/2007, -6/+35no the entire point of the spamming was to yell at the digg staff for bending over backwards for the MPAA. if we get a new key and post it and they dont' take it down at the request of the MPAA, then nothing will happen (except for fanfare in favor of digg) if they start banning and deleting again, well then the ***** will hit the fan...
- tropican8, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31It seems the Yahoo article does have one mistake in it, which isn't surprising since it's mainstream news. (The only people who even attempted explaining the April 23rd change at all, in fact.)
They first talk about the ancient WinDVD device key. That was revoked a long time ago and is a totally different animal. Then they start talking about the (completely different) processing key, which is simply no longer used in current HD-DVD MKBs. (As of April 23rd.)
HD-DVD players have a whole smorgasbord of processing keys that disks can use. We only know one. So they just picked another. The result is authorized players should continue to work as if nothing happened -- but our key won't work. - tektalk, on 10/12/2007, -8/+37You will live on in our hearts
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
for the moments you brought us were truly revolutionary.
I never will forget that defining day you brought to all of us here at digg.Godspeed. - john2kx, on 10/12/2007, -6/+33i guess my expectations for digg were too high. It's a famous quote in literature.
- john2kx, on 10/12/2007, -4/+28The bad news is, if you take one guess per second, it'll take (worst case) 1.08 x 10^31 years to find it.. The good news is that in the best case, you could possibly find it on your next guess! :D
- john2kx, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26"books were soooo 20th century."
that's a useful mindset.. After all, the world will always need the fast-food industry. :) - pcx99, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24||| Why couldn't THIS story make it to the front page two days ago? We could've avoided yesterday's debacle. |||
We could have temporarily put-off yesterday's debacle but it would have shown up again in a different guise. Yesterday was more about how Digg treats its users (arbitrary account deletions on a mass scale) and how it's transitioned from plucky upstarts who used to tell us how to backup our dvds and wardrive to people willing to do anything for a buck (The hypocracy of Kevin's position given his history was just.. well.. mind blowing). The DRM angle just made everything a perfect storm, the structural problems (Digg growing up to be "the man", and the callus disregard for user accounts) are still there which means there will be another revolt and another revolt and still another until digg either drives away it's most active and passionate users (and some would argue that it already has) or digg finally adopts a humane moderation system that involves warning, temporary suspensions, before they outright delete the accounts.
IMHO of course. - h00man, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20Next time you find a decrypting code, don't spread it around right away. Hide it. Let them make a few million discs/players based on it first. Wait a few months. Collect more codes if you can.
*Then* release the codes. - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20The significance of that paraquote is lost on these people.
It's what the AACS-LA is saying; they killed the old number, and are using a new one now, hoping that the new one won't be cracked. Which it will. Three weeks is pretty liberal a time span. I give it one. - mannymix03, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21"Ed Felton, a professor of computer science at Princeton University, estimates 3 weeks until we have a new number."
3 weeks until digg goes down again.... - cheesefan, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20Not as long as Digg intervenes and decides to censor it again.
It was only spammed because they said you can't post it and deleted the stories which had it. - CraigJ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+161. HD-DVD Discs are encrypted with a key
2. You need a player to decrypt the disc and play it
3. Computer scientists (hackers) everywhere have "both sides" of the equation - the encrypted media and a device to decrypt it.
4. It is inevitable that it will be cracked.
Is it just me or shouldn't this be obvious the the idiots at the MPAA / RIAA? - jiggawoot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14It's like the opposite of wrinkly yeah?
As in "I just ironed my shirt, and now it's all irony"... - siliconskater, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15I can't go through this again in a few weeks
- loconet, on 10/12/2007, -6/+19I really can't believe after all of yesterday people didn't bother to inform themselves about what the number was about.
This isn't news. It was already known the key was temporary! It is only good for older titles. A new one is already being used on new titles which I'm sure will be cracked again. - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14You won't have to; Kevin's promised not to do that again, so you won't get the massiv censorship protest we experienced a couple of days ago.
- celerate, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Every time they change the keys someone is going to have to update their software or firmware. Unless some company rolls out software and/or hardware that automatically updates every time this happens there are going to be more annoyed legitimate customers. I see this driving more people towards piracy, since the new decryption keys will be found and published there won't be any problem for pirates, legitimate users on the other hand will question why they are shelling out too much money for movies that require them to update their players every month.
The solution has always been simple, drop the "content protection" and keep the legitimate customers you have, in fact some pirates might return to purchasing legitimate copies of their media once all their rights in regards to that media are restored (I know I would). The alternative is to fight a loosing battle, even if they manage to lock out pirates, people aren't going to want to pay money for restricted (ie: broken) media. People won't shell out money without fighting back just because they're scared of you; however, they will give you money if they like and want to support your work. - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@DiggzDE:
*laughs at you*
Yo, teabagger. We already knew that the key could be revoked for new titles, and expected it to happen. We were just waiting for a new title to come out so that we could swipe the new key and publish it. Three weeks is a gross overestimate. From the technique, I would expect the new key to arrive a day after a hacker buys a copy of a post April 23 release.
Meanwhile, the old key is useful for every title up to April 23, 2007.
The fact that the key is extractable means the AACS has already lost the battle. Think about that before you decide who's been pwned here. - jaydj, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16See post from @pysgard below. Title is inaccurate. The article is about earlier hacks around device keys. It was published on April 16th before "the number" was found. "The number" is a processing key which is still good.
- troon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@mrfunktastic
"Maybe I'm dating myself"
You're on digg - you're not going to be dating anyone else, are you?
;-) - Wisgary, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9It's a 128 bit encyption key. That means there are around
340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,770,000,000 valid values. Try em all. - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9"people aren't going to want to pay money for restricted (ie: broken) media"
The unfortunate truth is that this is naivete; people will quite happily buy media they can't properly use. They don't realize that they should technically be able to keep an AVI copy of a movie they own, because they're not technically inclined.
Fact of the matter is, pirates are doing a public service by beating the ***** out of DRM and distributing their work to the masses. Eventually the industries will notice that DRM is throwing good money after bad (like the recording industry is waking up to), and that companies like the DVDCCS and AACS-LA are nothing more than vultures preying on the insecurities and greed of content creation companies, and that your average Joe will pick the Real Thing over the bootleg often enough for them to profit as they always have.
If I were a really good cryptohacker, I'd be so in on this fight. Instead, I'm a web developer; my contribution only comes only in the form of spreading awareness. Which is fine. - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8It's the old DRM cryptogrphy problem. What do you do when the intended recipient and the attacker are the same person? The only option is 'Security through Obscurity', which is only ever temporary at best.
AACS is the 'best' sort of DRM tech right now, as it allows them to limit their protection losses by revoking a key in future releases. Except that it will take less time to hack each successive key. I give a matter of months between keys 1 and 2's cracking, a matter of weeks between keys 2 and 3, and hours for keys 3 and the remainder of them. - Tiak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@jaydj
"It was published on April 16th before "the number" was found. "The number" is a processing key which is still good."
"The number", as you call it, was found in February.... - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"""We will NOT stand for DRM. In the end it only hinders the true value of the product for the people who pay for it.
The number will be cracked again and again and again. """
Well said. As an owner of various copyrights, and a user of legitimately paid-for content, I have never seen, nor can I envisage DRM inconveniencing anyone but people like myself who pay the artists for their work.
1. mass distribution of copied content cannot technically be hindered by DRM in any system where the encryption and the mechanism for removing it are both given to the end user (objecive fact that), whether by decryption or simple recording. In short, decryption isn't even technically necessary for any reasonably equipped mass copier.
2. people who download or buy those things from those mass distributors or "pirates" will never experience DRM because it's removed from their product.
In short, the only people it hurts are people who pay for the content, and the only uses that in-place decryption of the legit content is likely to have in any great number, is enabling fair use and interoperability by those of us who have willingly paid for it.
With that in mind, it's a bare-faced mechanism to turn fair use by paying customers into a revenue stream. - danl_4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7The great thing about this hack is that the processing key is not what the content creators were originally worried about protecting. They were worried about device keys, as those are the what can actually be revoked. If someone cracks and publishes the processing key currently, the AACSLA has no way of knowing which devices they need to revoke. The processing key in the current implementation is global, and so it could have been cracked using any device. If the hackers hadn't been so vocal about which software they used to find out the processing key, the AACLSA would have basically been up the creek.
- tuxidomasx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7if someone paid you to try your very bestest to make it work... wouldnt you smile and gleefully take their money? the engineers who developed this whole AACS undoubtedly know that it is inherently flawed-- and they probably tried to explain it to the suits. But the suits just dont get it, so maybe they just keep throwing money at the engineers and tell them to "make it work"
meanwhile, the engineers are laughing their way to the bank
i know i would - Talez, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Replying to this because he's the only person who has a clue so far.
Buried for inaccuracy. - messiah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6It also seems that the article is not referring to yesterdays number, it is in fact referring to the WinDVD number which has been revoked already
- M4tt3r, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Yeah, but you have to admit, this is one funny ass sentence.
"Next week, new HD DVD movies will hit the shelves that *won't play on some players, the first countermeasure by the content and software industries to combat intensive efforts by hackers to break copy-protection technology."
Well sure, that's "one" way they can do it. If I happened to own one of those playerrrrs, you can sure as hell guarentee I'll be using a different means to acquire my HD content. Arrrr. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Don't listen to him, come back to th dark side.
- celerate, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7No actually, the whole protest was about the articles being removed and the posters being banned, not the actual number. I don't think a single person expected the number to keep working after being leaked, but the new key will be out in the wild soon enough, and next time I don't expect to see articles deleted and people banned for posting it.
- Suplyndmnd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@mrfunktastic
You really gotta pay more attention to what's going on if you're gonna make a post. This wasn't about watching "Free movies". Infact, it was about watching paid for DVD's. Not your warez downloaded movies. It was so people who want to watch their perfectly legal movies. I wont flame you too entirely much except to say, next time, you should read.
And the whole debacle yesterday was about (perceived) abuse of power. Had nothing to really do about a number or DRM. It was mostly lead by people who were fed up and while I completely disagree with how they went about it, they did what they felt was needed to make their voices heard. Although, i feel it might have been just a touch extreme when there may have been other, less "pack mentality" and "mob rules", ways.
*quick edit to respond to post below*
I wish they would get this upset but it doesn't impact them directly from their viewpoint so most don't do anything. - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Why would they get sued? Once the number's already public, it's no longer a trade secret.
- danl_4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Sorry, I meant to put this link in my post above, it's a link to a great high-level explanation about how AACS works and what it means when the processing key is published. It's from the crypto mailing list archives:
http://www.full-disk-encryption.net/lurker/message/20070502.162154.1fc48054.en.html - tape, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4of course, this was already reported on in various forums about.... 2 weeks ago.
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