What is Digg?95 Comments
- Segitz, on 10/12/2007, -6/+42Nice to see this finally happen.
Didnt think, Sony would not put a scaler into the PS3... There you have it MS, there is one inside the PS3, and it CAN do digital video! - topbravo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+37This is excellent news... Now all we need is upscaling of regular DVD and PS2 games and I will be set. Just imagine Okami in 720p goodness :-) That would definitely make for some good gaming.
- threepio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21I would imagine that the reason Sony has begun to clam up about features and fixes is that they've been crucified in the gaming media over the past year (rightly so). You can't cram both feet in your gob if you don't open your mouth. The policy of "Shut up and do it" is a wise one. Keep the FUD to a minimum, keep the Vapourware to zero and just get ***** done. It's a little late, but well played on this serve Sony.
- topbravo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18my guess is that they wanted to force the developers to make 1080p native games and not rely on upscalers... I think they set the bar to high and now they realize whats going on... low and behold they have access to a horizontal scaler... Next 6 months they will have access to the vertical one.
- afx1, on 10/12/2007, -6/+21"which will let the console upscale to 1080i/p, a capability invisible to the developer until now."
It's only 3 months after launch, what's the rush, Sony?? - inkubux, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13Wow 2 good news in 2 days about the ps3. Hell froze over
- JayD16, on 10/12/2007, -10/+23Wow...if Square could put out a patch to bump up the texture rendering to 2040x2048(the textures are already this detailed but reduced down) and output the game in 1080p FFXI would look pretty close to next gen with a minimal amount of work.
Anyways, this is a HUGE hit to the 360. Even the PS3 haters on Digg can appreciate the fact that two major problems with the PS3 have just evaporated in the span of a week. Game scaling and backwards compatibility are now on target and its not even the often rumored March update. If that update actually hits the PS3 with Xbox live functionality. ie. vid chat, smoother buddy list options etc. it will be hard to contend with.
Even then the price is still high but seriously...you get what you pay for. - aegis9975, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Essentially, from the article, developers only need to support 960x1080 (comparable to the computational cost to 720p), and the PS3 can scale to 1080i (280x1080, 1440x1080 and 1600x1080 will also work).
This way, 720p games can be playable at 720p as well as 1080i. So folks with older sets have no problems. - Burgoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11The strange thing is the scaler only scales horizontally not vertically yet.
- totorototoro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Good news-hopefully the 2nd gen PS3 games can now start to take fuller advantage of the PS3's true capabilities.
- lucas911993, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I think it is fairly obvious that Sony was paddling as hard as they possible could to deliver the box. From what as I see as an engineer working on projects every day, I'm almost certain that Sony decided that integrating the hardware scaler into the PS3 hardware architecture was most prudent and there was other important work to be done elsewhere before the system was released.
Now that we are in post release, and developers are really crunching away at games (the true source of Sony's income from the PS3) they have decided that it is most prudent to help the developers bring the games to the market quickly. - combustion8, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13idiot
- JayD16, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Yeah you would need to patch them.
- catalysis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I find it totally bizarre that Sony doesn't say "we're working on it" or anything when people complain about stuff thats in the pipeline. Same goes for the PS2 BC problem. I think its japanese business culture or something.
- HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7A very well written article, covering the issue in depth and how it will be handled.
This is a good solution, but it does require developer cooperation. Now that Sony has this to offer, they also need to step up and work to ensure developers implement it. And honestly, they should patch Resistance to do it too.
Good job to Sony for addressing it, although late, it is a lot better than never. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It's not strange at all if you RTFM. Yes, there are 2 pages in the article.
Basically they gave only horizontal scaling because it has the same front/back buffer and RAM costs as 720p does. So you have a 960x1080 resolution, double the horiz. scale, and boom, 1080p. Anything below that is a cinch. I think the reason they did it this way was to prevent lazy developers (yeah EA I'm looking at you) from going full-on vert+horiz and ending up with horrible framerates. - aegis9975, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Funny how you left out the sentences immediately after your quote:
"Interestingly enough, "some" is the key word when describing the unlocked functionality; SCEI only gave access to hardware accelerated horizontal scaling. Horizontal scaling on its own cannot upscale a 720p image into 1080p/i --this would require both horizontal and vertical scaling."------"Hence, the newly exposed scaler functionality is not enabled in the PS3's user interface directly, but instead will still require developer support to work."
and. . .
"It is worth noting that as of today, support for one of these scalable resolutions is not yet a requirement of new game development; that decision is still in the hands of the developers themselves."------"However, it is already strongly rumoured that such support will become mandatory through future revisions of the PS3 technical requirements checklist (TRC)." - Segitz, on 10/12/2007, -12/+19Sorry, I accidently dugg you down topbravo!
Yeah, Okami or even FFXII in 720P would rock.
Or SotC at 720P :D it already looks splendid at 480P - Boofster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It's probably a software issue. They'll hack it out eventually.
- ScoobyG, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6This reminds of the PS2's debut, when everybody was wondering if it could actually do anti-aliasing.
Anyhow, really cool article. Recommended. Apparently there are some (unknown) reasons as to why Sony is reluctant to discuss the scaler and why it hasn't "unveiled" it before:
"There are multiple reasons for this continuing secrecy, and insiders are reluctant to discuss them even off the record, nevermind for publication. Nonetheless, the reasons behind SCEI's choices are not our subject today. While a great deal could (and will) be said about the nature of this scaler in the future, today's article will focus on the recently exposed functionality; the details of its hardware and the way that it is integrated into the PlayStation 3’s architecture will be reserved for a later article." - aegis9975, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6>>Does this work for the games that have already been released? Will they need patches as well? (I'm a little slow).
From my understanding, It will simply need to be patched and future games released using this SDK should be able to scale to 1080i. The PS3 is like a PC in the sense that when you change resolution it changes the native resolution, instead of upscaling/downscaling the original resolution. Hence, 720p will be 1020x720 and 1080p will be 1920x1080. For this solution, since it scales only horizontally, the game can output resolutions in either 280x1080, 960x1080, 1440x1080 or 1600x1080 and be scaled to 1080i. The article explains that 960x1080 is relatively similar to 720p in terms of computational power and any game in 720p should be able to output at 960x1080 reasonably well, and hence be able to scale to 1080i (If the developer chooses they can choose the lower/higher resolution and still scale to 1080i). However, this scaling is based on supported resolution of the game itself so it requires developer input. - JayD16, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Its obviously that next gen starts when Sony says it starts but their is still infighting within the company on when that is. There has been a general consensus within Sony that next gen has started at least horizontally.
- HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6catalysis:
Actually, Sony did say they were working on it. If you recall, someone at Sony (Phil Harrison?) said they would address this in a firmware update only days into the launch. Then they retracted it, staying they wouldn't give any timetable for it.
Is that sufficient? I dunno, but it is interesting. - sk545, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5PS2 is a best seller for now...it will end soon though. Can we give the PS3 a break? Its been out for only a bit more than 2 months....such hatred.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6
"PS3 has a HUGE difficulty handling 1920x1080"
Yes, this explains why the only 1080p games available for any next generation console are on the PS3. Would you like the list of 1080p games? Better yet, learn to use Google.
Incidentally, the only next generation console that has a HUGE problem with 1920x1080p games is the 360. - TheAkolyte, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8You make yourself look like a clueless idiot.
- matthewsr2000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5my guess is that they're having problems getting the scalar to play nicely with the dev kit. once they work out the kinks then they'll turn it all over to the dev's.
it's great though that once they fixed half of the problem they sent out half of the solution, making dev's life's easier!
...and getting some good press for once. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5More from Dark Knight:
"What I'm saying is, there is some inconsistent information with what I know from firsthand. For starters, before the launch of the PS3, you could access the hardware scaler in the SDK. You just were not allowed to use it because your game would not meet approval if you did. Also it makes it sound like developers were not aware of the scaler which is untrue because there was specific documentation stating not to use it. So there's some inconsistant info on what was said in the article to what really happened. I have not checked recently if there has been a change to the information on the scaler, but this is not new news to the PS3 dev community." - neo302, on 10/12/2007, -14/+18Is Bill Gates going to eat his words now? LOL
- apoc06, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4well, considering that today:
-there are around ~30 games already available for the ps3 by a wide variety of publishers
-the backwards compatibility of the ps3 is equivalent to a new slimline ps2
-several 1080p games were available [at launch, i might add]
-sony BMG's name was muddied by the rootkit fiasco [not SCEA]
i hope you start to reconsider your purchase.
sony's playstation division is slowly but surely starting to work its way through the piles of FUD that have been slung its way. such as:
-there will be no 1080p games
-there is no hardware scalar at all
-ps2 games will never get fixed
-halo3 will debut at the same time as the ps3 launches
-blu-ray laser diodes will prevent sony from keeping up their supply
-the ps3 is very complex and will break more often than the original ps2
-sony will not be able to make the november launch date
-sony is pushing back the march UK release date
-the ps3 network's online solution will be the exact same as the ps2's
-sony will prevent you from renting, trading or selling your games
etc...
right now, the machine is not ready for everyone. a lot of people are awaiting more games and a price reduction, but that doesn't remove the fact that sony has created a very, very solid machine that has already improved drastically since launch a few months ago. if only sony ponies up more money for exclusive titles, i could see alot of naysayers jumping ship. - Klinky, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8It's great they actually do have a hardware scaler in there, but it really does sound like the product was not finished before it was shipped out. This is a pretty important piece of hardware & it seems that they didn't even tell people that it was "coming soon", they just acted like it didn't have one. Silly...
- distrbnce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4lunarworks, I have to say, your logic is... not so.
Why would Sony care if you're buying PS2 or PS3 games? They're making money either way.
I think boosting the resolution on current games played on PS3 would also boost sales. Why wouldn't they do that? - j_bellone, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"And I'm glad that the PS3 has a scaler (even though I have a 1080p TV)."
Which is why you want the PS3 to have a scaler. You know what a scaler is, right? - aegis9975, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5>>"PS3 has a HUGE difficulty handling 1920x1080"
Grand Turismo:HD, RR7, is full native 1080p(1920x1080) and runs in 60fps flawlessly. Upcoming Lair is also suppose to be 1080p. Games that are already out show 1080p is not a problem on the PS3 - reddyap1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Sony is not dumb and any problem that has arose for the ps3 can be fixed with the current hardware and with time all problems will be resolved along with the growing game library.
Also on a side note I want to mention the fact that Blu-Ray is outselling HD-DVD 3 to 1 meaning that Sony has made the right decision and has future proofed the system unlike Microsoft which failed to even include an hdmi port in its system.
Sony has charged 600 dollars for this system but has justified the price with functionality which will only increase with future firmware updates. Microsoft has actual hardware problems in not including an hdmi port and resting on the fact that games will not grow. If you look at technology one constant is that more space will always be needed and is growing at an exponential rate. Microsoft has not future proofed their system which will lead for a rebuy for all M$ fans.
I would gladly pay the 200 extra now to save on having to buy a whole system later and I would take fixable software problems over an unfixable hardware problem anyday. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6More news from Dark Knight (PS3 Developer)
"I'm not sure that article is totally accurate since the hardware scaler was available to developers prior to launch. The problem was developers were not allowed to use it in their games. There was a specific note that the hardware scaler was not to be used or the game would not pass approval. So I'm not sure where the original article got their info from and I haven't checked specifically to see what may have changed in the SDK relating to that which may have caused him to say such a thing. I do know I used it at one point so that is how I knew it existed as well as the documentation referring to it which has been known for some time now to developers. The article is very suspect in its valildity." - Neobot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4tuzziel, wrote: "many developers simply cannot afford to spend more RAM on an upscaled front buffer."
What about the part where it says, "Fast forward to the day when a new SDK update was made available, and with it comes a new solution for developers." Then, there's a second page. Did you miss that? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4My belief?
I think you read a few forum messages, posted by people that have no idea what their talking about, and then paraphrased their technical content into your grade 3 leading level message. - lucas911993, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3 @Klinky
I would guess that they wanted to get the PS3 to the market place first, but didn't want the developers waiting around for the SDK update to enable the hardware scaler to finish their games. Additionally, they probably didn't know when or were not sure if the hardware scaler support would be added. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4
No, Bill didn't say it. Rather, one of his henchmen said it for him on behalf of Microsoft. - nogangz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Can't wait for upscaled Ps1/2 games :) God of War 2 on 1080p!
- achoo5000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Gfxwench at his best:
http://www.digg.com/gaming_news/Xbox_360_Too_Weak_To_Handle_720p_Games#c3805861
be sure to read the comment directly below his. - apoc06, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4why are people complaining about their secrecy over the hardware scaler? no one was upset with microsoft when they unveiled their "surprise" hardware scaler. what a double-standard. at least sony worked theirs out and news is being uncovered after two months, instead of after a solid year. lets not forget that microsoft only announced their 1080p upscaling ability [only over vga] after sony announced that they would be able to publish several 1080p native launch games. if sony was unable to create 1080p native games, would microsoft have even tried to enable their solution?
- xenovis, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7GfxWench always looks like a clueless idiot. Judging by his posts and comments I'm pretty sure he's either a 10 year old boy, or a Sony employee.
- matthewsr2000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"They already lose tons of money on each PS3 sold"
thats only for the first batch of consoles usually. after a little angling in the marketplace and some hardware revisions they usually break even, or make money depending on how many are sold. as the manufacturing batch rates go up, price goes down.
i think they're making the real money from the licensing fee's from dev's. - Daniel591992, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yes it did.
http://www.loyaldog.nl/uploaded/Hell+freezing+over.jpg - aegis9975, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2>>interesting response. i would dig it up, but you didnt link your source.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=794869&page=1&pp=30 - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It would seem that you either did not comprehend the article or read enough of it. I think it was both. When you saw what you were looking for, you quickly tabbed over to leave your ignorant reply on Digg. Had you read the entire article, you would not look like the ass you now do.
- HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2mark_in_bc:
Most games already support 1080i. The reason this is such a big issue is that Resistance and a few other titles don't support it. You're right, unless these titles are patched, this will do nothing for those games. I would have to hope Sony is working with Insomniac already on a patch.
As to BluRay discs, V1.00 of the PS3 firmware played BluRay discs in 720p, but the newer versions don't. Hopefully this means Sony will put this feature back in at some point in the future. For now, though, it's still no go. - JayD16, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The article was saying that there were rumors in the community(PS3 haters) that there was no scaler. It doesn't say the devs were in the dark.
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