What is Digg?83 Comments
- Authustian, on 10/11/2007, -0/+42All you'd really have to do is have the car's battery banks set up like an array of cartridges. If they all had an individual charge display, you could simply pull into a 'filling station' and swap out (by popping your hood and just pulling them out, like hot swappable hard drives) your run down batteries for fully charged ones, just like people do with propane tanks. Hell, the station could even charge you only for the difference between the energy in the battery(ies) you swap out and the fully charged one(s)...
But hell, I'm just a guy that thinks things should make sense and be easy. - Dgen_X, on 10/11/2007, -0/+23*****..if I could recharge the thing in close to the same amount of time, or even double what it would take to fill the 11 gallon tank I've got now it would be amazing
if not...the mini mart better have some damn good coffee - WanderLink, on 10/11/2007, -0/+19How awsome would that be if you'd go to a Tesla station and they had huge Tesla coils shooting electricity all over the place. Not gonna happen, but still, it's fun to fantasize.
- Nudar, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9How long does it take to charge?
- apeweek, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Altairnano batteries in both the Phoenix and ZAP-X electric cars can charge in 10 minutes. This is accomplished by accumulating current (preferably overnight, when rates are cheap) into batteries or supercapacitors. This energy is then released quickly into the car.
http://zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=4560
http://phoenixmotorcars.com/models/fleet.html
Other fast-charging batteries are on the way from EESTOR and FireFly. - eunichs, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6I have been thinking about this swap out battery concept for a few years and it is still seeming feasible (though perhaps not with the current technology). It makes sense, it just means using a standardised battery cell. While a motorcycle may only need one, a mid sized car may use 10 and a truck 100. It doesnt matter, so long as there is a universal standard. The units could be safety inspected during the charge process, which would be included in the price of the swap-out. Put some ultra efficient (yet to be invented?) solar panels on the roof of the recharging station and bam!
- Murdats, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6hell yeah, you pull in, maybe press a button and a giant lightning bolt comes out of the giant tesla coild and hits your car, till its full of power
and just think, lightining rod on your car, thunderstorm is a free top up - tjl2015, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7I honestly don't see how they can do this. There are two ways to do an electric charge station. You either have to charge the car directly or have a battery swap station. Both of these have currently intractable problems.
For the direct charge system, the energy flow involved is simply to large to be charged directly from the grid. Even if the charging station had dedicated high voltage lines, the grid just isn't designed to handle those massive spikes. This could be alleviated by having an enormous battery cell at the station, equivalent of the tanks underneath a gas station. The station could slowly take power from the grid at a constant rate and feed it to the cars at high rates. However, battery technology simply cannot handle these charge rates. It just won't work. Plus, charging the station's giant "energy buffer" would generate enormous energy loss, further decreasing overall efficiency.
Another scheme is the battery swap station. You charge the batteries slowly at the station and simply swap them out. The problem with this is the shear logistics involved. People compare it to something familiar, a propane tank. These systems are completely different. The size is vastly different. A propane tank only has to power a small flame. An electric car battery must be able to move thousands of pounds of dead weight down a highway at seventy miles per hour, and have a range of a few hundred miles. These things are massive, weighing hundreds of pounds. The only practical way to move them is with hoists and machinery. Then you have to take this thing on a forklift, and store it with the hundreds of other vehicles that need to charge at peak times.
A battery swap station does not resemble your neighborhood Chevron. This thing is a warehouse, not a gas station.
It's one thing to build a single demonstration plant, but when a building the size of a warehouse is supposed to place a building the size of a small truck stop, the model breaks down. They would have to be built on the periphery of cities, serving a massive area, further increasing the size. It might work with a handful of vehicles, but a system built on battery swap stations simply cannot replace a significant portion of a nation's vehicle fleet.
For electric vehicles, there is only one technology I know of that has the potential to solve this problem, and if it works, I see it as the future of transportation. A new form of 'battery' that is being developed by a team of researchers at MIT: http://lees-web.mit.edu/lees/posters/RU13_Oct05.pdf.
The idea is to create a super capacitor based upon carbon nanotubes. This technology has the potential to create an energy storage device with the energy storage density of conventional batteries, with the near-instantaneous charge time of batteries. They would be able to charge as fast as you can feed power to them.
The technology for mass deployment of electric cars is currently not available, but it may be available in the near future. All said, I am extremely skeptical of Tesla Motor's claim. Unless they come out of nowhere and announce a similar revolutionary energy storage device, there's really nothing more they can do but create a token demonstration plant only capable of servicing a handful of vehicles. - nemoder, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Yeah, just don't go 88mph.
- HonoredMule, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Just one problem with swapping batteries:
You pull up in your brand new roadster with fresh but drained latest-generation batteries on board, and the station say no problem, we'll just yank those out and replace them with these old ones that have been in service for 2 years, only hold half the capacity, and have developed some nasty energy leakage.
Propane tank technology isn't delicate enough nor advancing quickly enough for such swaps to matter, so long as decent quality checks are in place (mostly on the valve). But you'd obviously be pissed about swapping new batteries for old ones, especially if there were some perceived risk of the old ones damaging your car, causing an accident, or performing considerably worse.
Fast-charging systems are the way to go. - Salgat, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Well their roadsters take an overnight charge to fill it up, so I doubt this is for their tesla roadster(unless they have a place where you drop off batterys for new ones, maybe a new type of battery coming soon?)
- apeweek, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Ten minute recharges are possible - see below
http://phoenixmotorcars.com/models/fleet.html
http://zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=4560 - Zythryn, on 10/11/2007, -1/+40-60 in four seconds. Don't exagerate, it isn't necessary.
- linagee, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I think their target charging time is like, 5 minutes. (440V at some ungodly amount of current and cooling.) At those sorts of times, you'd have to have a pretty thick extension cord to the power substations too. ;-) (Oh, unless you built the charging stations AT the power substations. Heh. Not a bad idea. ;) )
- johnpaul191, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3if you read the document the linked blog references, or the blog comments, you see that this actual plan is specifically for charging stations at hotels and stuff. California has had charging stations at parking garages for years now. places like shopping malls or downtown. you swipe a credit card or something and it charges while you shop. i specifically remember noticing these back in 1998. battery technology has come a long way in the last 9 years.
- johnpaul191, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3part of the idea is to change how you "fill your tank". instead of just charging when you are empty, you would charge when you can. overnight, while at work, while shopping etc. there is some industry thinking that a vehicle should be able to go 300 miles between fill-ups. that is the minimum goal for alternative fuel vehicles. that's a lot more than average people drive in a day. these cars may not work for cross country treks at first, but they would work for 99% of the people 99% of the time. hell, normally it takes me over 2 weeks to drive 300 miles and i drive to work every day. if i had to find a charge maybe 2x a month, that seems a-ok. i could charge it at a movie theater or something since i don't have a garage where i live.
i'm not saying this project should be discouraged, but of course this whole plan leaves a massive hole where more urban areas are concerned. places where streets are bumper to bumper with cars would be a mess to charge in some overnight fashion. i guess that's a problem for somebody else to solve though. city cars would be greatly served by electric motors, but land is so expensive that moving all urban cars into garages (with charging stations) seems financially impossible. in general a lot of city people don't drive nearly as much as suburban people, so they would have to fill less frequently.
i wonder how long these cars hold charge? i know people that ride a bike or train to work, but own a car. they probably drive less than 300 miles in 2 or 3 months but still use a car in ways that things like car share ( http://phillycarshare.org/ ) are not quite the best solution. - smackhero, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3that's an interesting question. if it takes 3.5 hours for a full charge right now then they probably ought to build rest stop type stations.
but an even better idea would be to design the "pumps" and just sell them to universities and large companies like Google whose employees are close to their target demographic. charging stations that you can plug 5-6 cars into could be placed in the parking lot in an area designated for electric vehicles and let people charge up while they're at work or in class.
perhaps they can even have a central charging station that is routed to all the different parking spots so it wouldn't matter where you parked. i imagine a company like Google or most universities would probably let their employees/students charge their cars for free to promote the adoption of zero-emission vehicles until it really starts to catch on.
it's great seeing them really moving on this front. i wish there were more companies like this around. anyone know if they've gone public yet? - yunus, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I think the time would have to be near half an hour or less to make it viable. Maybe an hour. The current model is fill up whenever it suits you to do so 24/7/365. Middle of a road trip, on the way to work, on the way home, it doesn't matter because it takes only a few minutes to go from empty to full. If Tesla setup a model designed around charging your car slowly while you are performing tasks that take a long time anyway it could work. Imagine if instead of filling up at 7/11 you fill up at Outback while you have lunch/dinner, fill up while shopping at the mall, fill up while at the movies, fill up while at work.
As has been said before in this thread, 90% of charging will be done at home. If the car has a range of a couple hundred miles be realistic, how often do you travel further than a couple hundred miles in a day? This isn't gas so you wouldn't think about starting a road trip on half a tank, you would fill up every night.
If your going cross country electric is not a solution at this time but for daily use 90% of us would not be inconvenienced by the limitations of electric. - TechCF, on 10/11/2007, -0/+35 minutes is good if thats their target. Time enough for a hot-dog and a toilet visit
- Salgat, on 10/11/2007, -3/+5The issue is that these batteries weigh some 900lbs.
- linagee, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Just FYI, Phoenix Motorcars (saw them at Earth day in Balboa Park) told me that you can recharge their electric truck in 10 minutes. When I went over to the SDGE (electricity company), they basically laughed at this number and said it would case blackouts to draw that much current that fast. Here is the relavent URL: http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/faq/index.html#6
The way I came up with my previous charging estimate is that if Tesla wants to compete, they will have to offer similar charging times or better. (Or nobody will buy it.) Tesla's website only lists 3.5 hours, but charging is really a matter of 1) How good your charger is (How much current it will pass onto the batteries.) 2) How much cooling you can get to the batteries while charging them (They do heat up if not properly cooled.) Both of these things add $$$. - eunichs, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3except perhaps that equipment which could perform the charge in such a short amount of time would be (i) outrageously expensive and (ii) in need of regular safety inspections.
- megaloid, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2This sounds like the system devised by Dr. Manhattan and Ozymandias in "The Watchmen."
- crosswick, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Not everything on Coast 2 Coast is disinformation.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I don't think electric cars have to be fully recharged ( overnight ). I think they can be partially charged. So electric "gas" stations might be for people who still have a charge, but are running low, only want to spend 1/2 hour or so at the station and are just worried about making it home.
Longer charge times could be a good thing. Could set them up as coffee houses, internet cafes. Places to hang out and socialize while your car charges - grexeo, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4What seems fishy about Tesla Motors?
- ChayD, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I seriously hope that this doesn't go the same way as the EV1. That was a viable electric car, and the infrastructure looked like it was in place (charging stations and everything) then suddenly: *poof* no more EV1s - I guess that GM didn't see it as viable at the time; they were making enough money on gas powered cars making the EV1 a bit of a white elephant. Shame that they had to go and 'recycle' most of them, as they'd have been a good platform
for future improvements such as Li-Ion technologies.
The inductively coupled charging system was also cool, and safer than using metal contacts, too. Perhaps all the EV manufacturers will work together on a standard charging attachment that will work on all electric vehicles. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2if they make these refill stations separate from the already annoying gas stations every half mile, I'd be a little ticked. Make it a simple addon for a gas station and also give us the ability to do the SAME super fast charging at home. There's absolutely no reason why we can't have this in our homes. If a kid with no training can pump gas/refill at an electric station, I should be able to do the same thing.
- OdinEye, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2'sokay - I wasn't taking you as complaining.
I just wanted to make the broader point that I'd like to see one of these companies make it and, if they are going to do so, having a realistic business perspective is going to have to be a part of it.
I'd like to have something I could buy today that would meet my needs as well. - OdinEye, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@tiner123 - "It looks like Tesla is still paying off its R&D from the price of its cars."
I take your point about cost of entry, but I'd consider it a good sign that Tesla is trying to pay off it's R&D by pricing it's product accordingly. If the company is going to be successful it has to have an eye clearly focused upon turning a profit. As a general rule this has to be the primary focus of business or it simply won't succeed.
The electric car company that actually manages to turn a profit today is the one that will still be around in 5-10 years to sell us more reasonably priced, everyday electrics. - apeweek, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2It's possible to get an EV for as little as $5000. Link:
http://www.squidoo.com/cheap-electric-car - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Why not have all the 'gas stations' in all the parking lots. That way, while your at work, at a movie, etc. Your car is filling up, and your credit card charged like your at a 'gas station'. Hmm.
- OdinEye, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Given the likely use of electrics as commuter cars in many cases, it would seem one very good option would be providing businesses with tax credits for allowing their employees to recharge their cars while they are at work.
Your electric is going to be a lot more useful if you are fully charged on the way home - not having to worry about whether you have enough charge to stop off for groceries, or to take that little run over to your buddy's house on the way.
I like Tinker123's recharging cafe's as well. - yunus, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I know in the future the technology will be available to quickly charge batteries but until I have seen on a large scale deployment I am skeptical of claims like a 10-minute charge. Theres just a lot of other factors that in my non-expert analysis are unknowns like how will that affect the longevity of the batteries.
Don't misunderstand me though, I'm all for that kind of technology it would make the transition to electric vehicles 100x easier. I just think that people need to understand that the way you think about gas is different than the way electric will be implemented. Rather than a centralized location (gas station) that is the sole source of power there will be power sources everywhere you go. I think of it like mini-gas pumps all over the place and you just top off your car everywhere you go so you never get below half a tank.
Plus the infrastructure already exists in some places. Fairbanks, AK for example, when I was stationed up there in the Air Force all the parking lots have electrical outlets to plug in your vehicle for the winter, some stores have that too. Granted the current wiring would not support the large amounts of current required but the concept is there already. - HP844182, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2The problem with swapping batteries is the amount of batteries the station would have to have on stock. Just think of how many people fill up every day at a gas station...you'd have to have a battery for everyone of them.
- johnpaul191, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2possible options:
1) swap out, as stated above
2) new battery technology that is easier to quick charge
3) maybe they need a giant flywheel to smooth the spikes.
you can laugh, but they have used massive flywheels to start the small test fusion reactors. to start those test machines otherwise would require a quick surge that is close to the power requirements of a small city, then nothing till they start it again (because it's making tons of power). it makes more sense to spend days spinning up a flywheel. when i say massive flywheel i mean one that, if it was vertical and it escaped, could roll through a few buildings like nothing. these are generally horizontal, so less issue of that chaos. once your flywheel is spinning it is not a (relatively) big deal to keep it going. it sounds archiac and retro, but it might work. it would be nicer to have a giant spinning hung of cast iron under "filling stations" than tanks full of hazardous oil. - CAPSLOCKISCOOL, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2perpetual motion can never and will never exist
- jdavid, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Super Caps offer 1/10th - 1/5th the storage of lithium ion and offer pretty much infinite current delivery. If this were the case, charges could take minutes, but the range on the cars would be shorter, but they could produce more horsepower.
I would guess that if Tesla is thinking charging stations, then they are thinking about supercap cars with about a 50-100 mile range. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Sounds great.
My dream is to buy an electric car. I don't think it will happen soon.
It looks like Tesla is still paying off its R&D from the price of its cars. My upper, stretched out limit is 30K. My current car is dieing sooner than I thought. I will probably have to buy a hybrid, a diesel set up to use vegetable oil, or a high mpg conventional car. I need to start researching what pollutes the least and what it is like to live with each car. - corvairkid, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Another problem with swapping batteries is warranty. Do you think Tesla or anyone else is going to eat the cost of replacing a "tested good at the station but fails a few miles down the road" battery pack that didn't originally come with the car?
What about different makes/models of EV's in the future? Is you battery swap station going to be able to handle all of the different batteries and mounting systems? Designs can change year to year and we all know that different manufacturers do things differently just to be different.
I'm also thinking of terminal wear and corrosion where the pack plugs into the car. Battery swapping sounds like a really bad idea once you think of the real world problems. - baldwin90, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1if Tesla seriously thought they could make a move on the oil industry with their low efficient cars, damn straight they would do it, thats the next big race in America, the oil race, because we all know the U.S. is not going to slow down much on Greenhouse Gases, its proven with the recent disapproval of Germany's Solar-powered energy that is proven to work, because of "cash incentives", if the U.S. wants to go the right way thats the way they will go, because the sun will be around for another million, at least, years or so.
- mrx23, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Most common gas stations have 12 pumps. Th charge 12 chevy volts with their 16KW battery packs in 5 minutes requires 2.304MW of energy. Thats 2,304,000 Watts. At 240 volts its 9600Amps!! Thats a lot of current... Enough to power 230 homes with all of their air conditioners, refrigerators, electric ovens, microwaves, tv's, clothes driers running at once.
- OdinEye, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1So... Apeweek - do you work for one or both of these companies?
Saying something on a website doesn't make it so.
Doing it makes it so. - corvairkid, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Perpetual motion is easy. It's disregarding the laws of physics and thermodynamics that's hard.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Why in the world is anyone getting excited about a $100K car? Sure, it's spiffy looking. But who can afford one, other than eco-movie-celebs, who will be seen in it for the cameras while they take their 30' limo to their private jet to have dinner in the Bahamas, where they will tap their wine glasses to celebrate what good, concerned people they are?
And planning a network of "gas" stations is a little premature since they have yet to ship their first car. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@odineye - I wasn't complaining. I understand what Tesla is doing, why, and I approve I just want an electric car in my price range now :)
- Technopundit, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I've heard surprisingly little about the fact that Lead-Acid batteries release Hydrogen Gas when charged.
If we could harness that hydrogen we could -dare I say it?- RULE THE WORLD!!!! - SilverBlade2k, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1how about working on a way to lower the cost of the cars, THEN working on the recharging stations
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I think Tesla has a shot unless the oil and auto lobbies get a law to shut them down.
The CEO is already rich and set for life, he can't be bought out. He started Tesla because he wants electric cars to succeed.
It will be a few years before someone like me can afford one. I'm not into buying an EV conversion kit. Some guy in my area ( he is on youtube ) did it. He just hooked up a ***** of conventional batteries to an old car pretty much. It only has a range of 50 miles. I'm not ready for something like that.
I've saved up cash for a new car.....hard earned. I want to make sure I get a good investment back for it. I'm nervous about hybrids. How maintainable will they be after the warranties run out? Cost of ownership/support issues? If a plugin hybrid comes out in 2-3 years ( or something else ) will anyone want to buy my used hybrid or will I take a bath?
I've also heard their gas mileage isn't all that great, so I am wonder if a high mpg conventional car might be just as good......or nearly as good for emission reductions, but still give me the investment,trade-in, maintenance, support benefits of a regular car.
I will probably need to buy a new car this winter. - smackhero, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@johnpaul:
the problem with too many cars in the city is exactly that. there are far too many cars for such a dense area. there should be better public transportation in public areas and less reliance on cars. the problem is that, on the west coast at least, public transportation is usually pathetically inadequate. but i know that on the east coast many people are more than willing to walk to most places or take public transportation for extended distances across the city.
having too many cars in dense areas causes a lot of problems. firstly, it causes a lot of congestion which makes the roads less efficient. secondly, there's the unnecessary gas/power consumption and pollution. lastly, it takes up even more limited and costly land to house all these cars (people need somewhere to park at home, and then also at work, at the mall, etc.)--all of this space is wasted when it could be put to better use by constructing more business buildings, or housing, or parks, all of which would improve urban life and lower the cost of renting property. -
Show 51 - 79 of 79 discussions
Browsing Digg on your phone just got easier with our enhancements to the 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is