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- Snakedal337, on 10/16/2007, -6/+29That reminds me, any vista torrents up yet? >: )
- inactive, on 10/16/2007, -5/+23Pretty nice, but OpenGL will be just as good with the next version.
- dickeytk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16that's not that extreme for high end video cards, they've been up in that range for years
- BuckCynnie, on 10/12/2007, -3/+19Not only do you need new hardware (always a requirement) but you need a new OS. That totally sucks. I hope more game makers start using OpenGL again. I use Linux and would love to not have to boot to Windows just to play a damn game.
:( - boscorelle, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18nice in depth article
Quote:
"It is a new way of designing drivers - meaning an end to ForceWare and Catalyst Control Center as we know them. Whilst the applications might stay similar on the surface, the backend of display drivers will now be significantly different."
sounds like Directx 10 has some surprises in store for us - stappawho, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16I'm holding out for DirectXXX
- goat2, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16considering those cards arent dx10, and the ONE 8800 is BETTER than 2 7950's in sli, the 8800 is a better choice
- osc1882, on 10/16/2007, -9/+22What is OpenGL up to? I'll have to forgive me, but I really thought OpenGL died. If it's still alive and well that will make me happy.
- seanmac, on 10/12/2007, -6/+17Ubuntu != Linux
- InetRoadkill, on 10/12/2007, -9/+19Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stay with OpenGL and cross-platform compatibility.
- dracflamloc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9There is a ton of vested interest in OpenGL. PS3 and Wii use it, as would basically ANY non-MS console. The other thing to note is that DirectX as far as graphics go, offers nothing even version 10, that openGL can't use. The rendering capabilities are in the graphics chip itself and the software is just an interface to get into it. OpenGL will have plenty of time before Vista is widely adopted enough for game companies to care, and it will be easy for it to update its interface to take advantage of the graphics card.
- greyfade, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10You haven't tried it lately, have you?
- doodlebumm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9http://opengl.org/
The DirectX stuff also handles audio and such, but OpenGL is purely graphics. One can easily argue that the OpenGL route will give far greater portability, which is more than one can say for DirectX, which is Windows only. And 10 will be Vista+ only from what I've heard. OpenGL would be more backwards compatible, and more platform independent, so it would be able to more easily run on MacOS and Linux, as well as available to older WindowsXP users (the WindowsXP is older, not the users). - greyfade, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Indeed, one can use OpenGL on Macs, Linux, Big Iron Unix (Read: SGI IRIX), all but 2 of the major consoles (XBox and XBox 360 being the notable exceptions unless someone knows whether an OpenGL API is available?), Windows, some handheld systems, and cell phones (with EGL and OpenML).... Whereas DirectX is only available on Windows and the XBoxes - and DirectX 10 only on Windows Vista.
DirectX 10 sounds like marketing suicide to me.
(Also, I should probably note that DirectX is popular among demo writers because it can be so slim in recent incarnations - it's a lot easier to write a 64KB demo on DirectX than on OpenGL, I'll admit.) - shinynew, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@osc1882
The latest big game to use OpenGL (correct me if i am wrong) if Prey, running on the doom3 engine. this was released july, 11 this year. Thats pretty far from dead, and http://www.opengl.org/ is still posting. - palmer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Way to cheerlead another proprietary hassle created by Microsoft. If all of this effort had been put into OpenGL, everybody would benefit and graphics-card vendors wouldn't have to waste time on two different standards.
Now we're all penalized by this waste of engineering resources. - greyfade, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8@TGMD: The OpenGL ARB (Architecture Review Board - which includes Microsoft, HP, SGI, Apple, NVIDIA, ATi, and others) has done more innovation in its first versions than DirectX has made since version 5. (We don't discuss anything prior - everyone knows DirectX was unusable before version 5.) 3DLabs' introduction of their OpenGL 2.0 proposal (we are now up to 2.1) has done everything that DirectX 8 claimed to and /then/ some.
OpenGL's progress may seem glacial (just as EMACS users claim VIM's development is glacial at version 7, not realizing that EMACS actually still hasn't reached the big 2.0) but that's probably due to the fact that OpenGL has done most of its innovation first, before DirectX, and relies mainly on its extension mechanism to provide the features that core OpenGL didn't have the foresight for. In truth, OpenGL is collectively farther along technically than DirectX 10 is, and it has had the input in the world's leaders in 3D graphics technology (Microsoft's presence notwithstanding - they've made zero contribution to the OpenGL standard, and are often accused of slowing things down on the ARB). - Drealoth, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10I don't know about that. I'm as big a fan of open source as anyone, but it looks like this version of DirectX 10 is a big step forward. Whether OpenGL will be able to catch up remains to be seen. Modern times are seeing fewer and fewer developers using OpenGL, so the demand for these advanced features would probably be pretty low.
One can hope, though. - doodlebumm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The proliferation of DirectX 10 will be directly related to the proliferation of Vista. There may be plenty of time for OpenGL to "catch up" or even surpass DirectX 10 before a critical mass has been achieved. Then it would be available to WinXP, MacOS and Linux users as well as Vista users.
- doodlebumm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7If written in OpenGL, the porting issue is really much less relevant. Yes, you must do more work to get it to work on Linux and MacOS, but it is not a significant overhead. There are plenty of games (and developers) who have made the commitment and are benefiting from it.
- seanmac, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Please define the context of your comment. If you're a gamer you don't really have a choice -- most games will run only on one API or the other, and that's almost always Directx.
If you are a developer, then your comment is slightly more relevant, but not really because you will use whatever API your manager tells you to use. And it's kind of hard to advocate cross compatibility when directx is cross-compatible with something that's a bit more relevant than *nix -- the Xbox.
If you develop applications for industrial use then of course you're going to stick with opengl
So that leaves demo writer. In which case no one cares. - mitrovarr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Are there any programs that really use them, though? I mean, aside from simply benefiting from the speed of the 8800s.
- Fergy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6[quote]Macs use Intel processors now, they have used ATI and Nvidia graphics for years, so there is nothing more than the current premium on the parts to keep Apple from
considering buidling a Mac with DX10 capable hardware.[/quote]
DirectX10 will not be ported to either Windows XP MacOS or Linux so what good does Directx10 capable hardware do for you? - greyfade, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5They won't. The drastic change in driver architecture probably means they've broken several crucial parts of the driver ABI between Windows NT/2K/XP and Vista. While you can still use NT4 drivers on XP, I don't expect the same to be true for Vista. Given that the new parts of the driver ABI for Vista allow for an interface for DirectX 10, I expect Microsoft to stick with their decision.
If you don't know what an ABI is, it's the specification that says "these functions are here in memory and nowhere else, this is how you call them, and this is how you handle the context switch to ring 0 so they can be called." Everything breaks if you change even one byte in the ABI. (This is why complete binary drivers generally don't exist on Linux - the ABI is always in flux - deliberately so.) - greyfade, on 10/12/2007, -13/+17After perusing the article, I still personally fail to see what advantages DirectX 10 has over OpenGL 2.0 (which seems to provide a completely orthogonal featureset and still does not suffer from the poor assumptions that previous DirectX versions made that DX10 purports to fix). In fact, DirectX 10's biggest new feature is something that OpenGL has never had a problem with (and, in fact, took advantage of): usermode marshalling. The X Window server has always been usermode, and all implementations of OpenGL that I'm aware of have been written to operate on a driver interface layer of X - an idiom Microsoft ignored for many years. Users of Cg for nVidia cards and ATi's RenderMonkey have long known that OpenGL's support for pixel/vertex shaders has been wide open - only now unified and standardized by Microsoft's hand in SM 4.0 - at least, by my understanding of the specifications.
I really don't see anything new here. - Ademan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Well Microsoft is FINALLY fixing a retarded ass design decision involving a user space to kernel space switch on draw calls. This is why DirectX had to have instancing implemented, because at small batch sizes, DirectX performed like a grandma on sleeping pills. OpenGL on the other hand never suffered that problem. On the other hand, OpenGL still doesn't have instancing. (it will in openGL 3.0)
- InetRoadkill, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7The context is as a developer and user. OpenGL is a very mature and open standard. It has cross-platform compatibility. Plus, unlike DX10, it will never demand that I shell out $$$ for a new OS to use it.
Any games which fail to support DX9 or OpenGL are shooting themselves in the foot by limiting their potential client base. It appears that DX10 will only be available to Vista. Games which use DX10 exclusively will be a Vista only games. Thanks, but no thanks. I'm not purchasing Vista, and there is every reason to believe that Vista is not going to be a big hit for home users either (nasty DRM and licensing issues, plus it's a resource pig). Therefore, as a developer, I'm inclined to avoid DX10 because I want to have as broad an audience as possible. OpenGL does that for me. - greyfade, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@seanmac: Those rants are explosive and disappointingly flame the reader base. That author needs to be kicked off the editorial team. I was drunk at the time, but even I saw through it all: http://discuss.extremetech.com/forums/4/1004353047/ShowPost.aspx#1004353487
- HonoredMule, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Just because the specification was out doesn't mean the implementation was. Yes developers have been able to work with the API in their development environments, but that doesn't mean their computers had DX10 hardware, now did it? Case in point for the Xbox
- DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3No, D3D 10 hardware didn't even exist as prototypes until a few months ago.
- TGMD, on 10/12/2007, -9/+11I don't know, I love OpenGL but MS has been doing a bang up job with DX and DX 10 is really impressive, I just don't see how OpenGL can put something together fast enough that can properly compete against DX.
- Pigeon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Crysis is coming out in 2007 isn't it? Thats DirectX 10.
- greenrider, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Is there some obligatory rule that says any article about a videocard or display technology must be split up into no less than 6 pages?
Aside from that, good article. - Loonacy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6"And it's kind of hard to advocate cross compatibility when directx is cross-compatible with something that's a bit more relevant than *nix -- the Xbox."
And OpenGL is cross-compatible with something that's a bit more relevant than the Xbox -- The PS2/3 (And there are a lot more PS2s out there than there are Xbox/X360s).
And you also left out the possibility that he might just be a manager of developers. - OpCzar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Can the xbox360 even use directx10? If not, then most ports will be playable on directx9...
- AngryBacon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4But using OpenGL makes it a lot easier to run in WINE.
- gerkin, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6The future of gaming according to MicroSoft:
1. Thou shalt have no other API before me
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any compatible API
3. Thou shall not take the name of our API in vain
4. Remember patch Tuesday, keep it busy
5. Honour Bill Gates and Microsoft
6. Thou shalt not uninstall
7. Thou shalt not play OpenGL games
8. Thou shalt not reverse engineer
9. Thou shalt not offer "Application Compatability" to thy neighbour
10. Thou shalt not ask for OpenGL compatability - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2[quote]DX10 is both hardware and software. It will not be ported back to XP because it requires that the whole GUI be capable of rendering using the 3D hardware.[/quote]
Umm... no. DX10 hardware is what makes the difference. You can send D3D10 instructions to that hardware any way you want. OpenGL, with exensions, can do it. The only difference is that XP's drivers won't let you have the same system-wide use of DX10, so it will be limited solely to one app at a time.
With 768MB DX10 graphics cards on the way, you're not going to have to worry about using system memory for graphics much either.
DX10 will be ported if Vista is not a success. Even better, I hope more game devs go back to OpenGL, and OpenAL. - Pigeon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The 360 uses DirectX, Managed DirectX and the.Net APIs.
- DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2FSX supports Direct3D 10 (with a soon to be published update) and the game itself is out now. =)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"GeForce 8800 New Technology:
* NVIDIA® unified architecture revolutionizes PC graphics performance through unprecedented processing power and efficiency
* World’s first DirectX 10 GPU delivers unparalleled levels of graphics realism and film-quality effects
* NVIDIA Lumenex™ engine delivers incredible image quality, floating point accuracy, and fast frame rates
* NVIDIA Quantum Effects™ technology enables a new level of physics effects to be simulated and rendered on the GPU
All these new technologies allow the e-GeForce 8 series of GPU processors allowing PC Platforms to experience high-resolution, high performance gaming and stellar high-definition visuals." - mitrovarr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3As I understand it, the way it's going to work is that new games will be DirectX10 compatible, but will still work on DirectX9. So, if you don't have vista and/or a dx10 card, you can still run the game, you just lose out on the dx10 specific features (which improve performance and graphical quality.)
- Ademan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@seanmac
What are you talking about? Most sane developer's write their 3d code around an abstraction layer which has a Direct3D or OpenGL backend, though admittedly that trend does seem to be fading, as microsoft continues to push their proprietary crap on everyone. (Although I attribute the majority of Direct3D adoption to D3DX (a set of helper functions for everything from 3d transformations to model loading) )
And i've stressed this time and time again. DirectX and OpenGL are ONLY INTERFACES TO HARDWARE. Direct Sound interfaces a sound card, Direct3D and OpenGL interface graphics cards, and so on. It's not like Direct3D "makes" any effects, it simply exposes the functionality to a program. Having said that, OpenGL exposes new effects in a much better way, without breaking the entire API every iteration.
OpenGL has broken backwards compatibility once in its 13 year run. Direct3D has broken it's API every single iteration since i've used it (Dx7)
Having said that, OpenGL is going to break its API a second time jumping from OpenGL 2.1 to OpenGL 3.0 They are totally changing the object model. This is actually a GOOD thing, as opposed to Direct3D's changes which mostly consist of an extra parameter or two and renaming a function, basically a refactoring nightmare.
OpenGL 3.0 promises geometry shaders, longer vertex and fragment(pixel) shaders.
And several things Direct3D 10 doesnt have, namely superbuffers, which will allow batching of epic proportions. Render to vertex BUFFER. among other things.
Long story short:
OpenGL 3.0 > DirectX 10 based on features alone
Direct X 10 > OpenGL 3.0 on support
winner = ?
Who knows, with all of the exciting OpenGL 3.0 features, more and more people might switch (back) over to openGL. - MiDri, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1They will do what they did with xbox games, there are a few demos out that that actually update your dash board (and us soft modders have to look out for them, they'll screw up our mods)
- an0nym0us, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3You're Welcome. :)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I thought those card were D10x
"EVGA E-GEFORCE 8800 Gts 500MHZ 640MB 1.6GHZ GDDR3 Dual DVI-I HDTV Out HDCP DIRECTX10 Video Card "
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=21406&vpn=640-P2-N821-AR&manufacture=eVGA - TenebrousX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2yes, they have been for weeks actually
no crack though - palmer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Think of all the effort wasted on DirectX, which could've gone into OpenGL. Effort by Microsoft, graphics-card vendors, and app developers alike.
Thanks, MS. - malkir, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Perhaps I should have clarified. There will be no good DX10 only titles. They will all also use DX9.
- Grogtron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1 by Mirag3 13 minutes ago
if by "released" you mean released to production, then yes. Although, released to production doesnt really mean anything - it wont even be available to volume buyers until the end of December and everybody else until January,
---
Actually you can get it from Compusa. 5 or more licenses to download and install. Volume customers also have it available today...
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127865-pg,1-RSS,RSS/article.html -
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