What is Digg?137 Comments
- thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Just got this back from Perez: "
"Yes - we use AEG. We leverage fans to answer tech questions - give updates on drivers -
etc. They act as our 'voice'.
dp"
I also got the following back when asking if the fans were leveraged only for tech support service or if it also included marketing.
I've emailed him back asking for specifics on the compensation and how it works as well as if there is any kind of disclosure on this practice. I've also asked him if he's in any way familiar with the techniques for hiring as described in the original consumerist article below:
"I interviewed for a guerilla marketing business in San Francisco that targeted web forums.
I was told that if I accepted the job, I was to have at LEAST 50 identities on as many forums as I could muster (they wanted 100 eventually), with a goal of 5 posts an hour. The posts had to be well thought out, and the idea was that I was to establish multiple identities with a history on the forums, so that when the timing was right a well written but subtly placed marketing post could be finessed in. And regular visitors would recognize the post as coming from a long time poster."
Will post back when I hear back. - thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Nvidia PR man Derek Perez just responded to me by email:
"Hi Thomas.
Its TOTALLY untrue ! ! !
We don't 'hire actors'...
We leverage fans, people who use our stuff as advocates.
I'm to explain more if you'd like - but it is untrue.
dp "
I've emailed him back asking exactly what "leverage fans," means and if they are associated with Arbuthnot Entertainment Group (AEG). I'll post back when I get an answer. - thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Update #3: Just got another email back from Derek: "Yes - fans are given both, mktg and tech messages - is there something wrong with that?"
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6nVidia cards can cure cancer, I am not being paid by this benevolent company in any form...ohhh good, my laundry has arrived, with a dollar sign on the bag
- thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5More from Derek Perez: "Thomas.
We don't 'direct' it - we simply give it to them - like we give it to
everyone else.
They are not 'compensated' in any way, we occasionaly give them hardware
- but we give hardware out to A LOT of people
And there is no disclosure difference from them or any other consumer.
And press are disclosed before the launch - they are not.
I have no clue what this guy is refering to...you would have to ask AEG
what they are hiring for.
In my honest opinion Thomas - you are really making a moutain our of a
mole hill - and you really should put some pressure on the 'consumerist'
who wrote that article...as it is clear he doesn't have all the facts.
Does this all make sense?" - AlmostEvil, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Let me elaborate on why this is wrong.
When some company sponsors an athlete you KNOW that company is paying that athlete for that advertising.
What's underhanded about this tactic is that a lot of people rely on peoples opinions on whether a piece of hardware|software is good or not. By paying someone to secretly advertise without you knowing it's an advertisement is plain and simple DECEPTION.
I think the following should be added to all agreements on forums, messageboards etc like digg, slashdot, penny-arcade forums etc. (when signing up)
"You agree that you do not work for a company thats purpose is to advertise or otherwise place any opinions or posts/messages that are on behalf of that company or companies employing said company."
If they then proceed to do the posts then the persons (along with the company) should be taken to court, these people need to be burned and burned hard.
As an additional point if a site like digg suspects a company doing is doing this advertising perhaps they could request some kind of court ordered discovery or any or all persons who are in breach of the sites rules. Although they'd probably need some good evidence on that.
I'm not saying the following is right, i'm just saying someone might do it:
A person puts a trojan on this advertising companies computers and finds out the people doing the stealth advertising and then proceeds to show them up as the charlatans they are. - DogzOfWar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think things are getting a little mixed up here. having people post fake messages in forums is uncool, but this is a completely different issue than bribing hardware review sites or creating fake review sites for their hardware. Forums are unregulated, with all sorts of people's right or wrong opinions. There's no reason nVidia can't chime in as well.
If this was a story about fake hardware reviews, or forged benchmarks, or bribes to get good press that'd be a real story. This is a no-go. Kinda like when some companies set up fake blogs to spread their message. - thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Recently I've been wondering about the strategy of a marketing company hiring a secret group of diggers to work for them. As it only takes about 35 people to push a story to digg's front page the thought would be that secretly a company could build this team of people to push stories they want highlighted and even more importantly try and kill stories that are negative to them. Digg can move traffic like no place else on the internet these days. I know it's total conspiracy theory on my part but at some point marketing firms have to start recognizing the power of digg. Of course it would be a huge scandal if something like this were going on but once you start getting big traffic and big marketing involved you have to wonder if these kind of thoughts are not at least crossing marketers minds these days. Totally wrong of course and I doubt any reputable company would try, but still... makes you think.
- fluffyturtle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I know 3 people who have been doing this for nvidia, I assume it is with AEG. I only know one who did it for ATI. 2 of the them, the same person who does it for ati and one who does it for nvidia, do it for intel (they try to hit home a gaming image). I know no one who does it for amd, but I know they exist.
Honestly it isn’t quite as sinister as some may think. All of the people mentioned above in my post are flaming fanboys and they were that way before they ever signed up.
The reason why it isn’t so sinister is that they essentially get paid to do what they already did. The nvidia ones to my knowledge never received pre release hardware though, one got a retail 5800ultra a long time ago. I laugh every time I remember that, what a way to be paid right? LOL.
The Intel shills are the only ones I know of who get pre release stuff, they have all had their hands on the upcoming yonah chips.
I mean granted, it is pretty bad but everyone does it. You think that is bad? ENTIRE SITES have been paid off. You know those brand specific sites? You know the ones, they are all about ati or amd? Chances are they have been paid one way or another.
In the end it doesn’t matter folks. As the article said never trust one opinion. DON’T even trust a single site. DriverHeaven, AMDZone etc. they all have shills working for them that I know personally. I know more sites out there are like that too.
Be a responsible consumer and do your homework. None of this will affect you if you take the time to research before you throw down hundreds of dollars.
Also for the other forums you visit, don’t start a witch hunt. These people have been around for a long time, all of the people I know were like this before they even got paid. Just because someone has a differing view does not make them a shill. - thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2keep in mind too that this may not be true. that's an important thing for us all to remember. I just emailed Nvidia PR to try and get a response and will post it here if I hear from them.
- thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Update #6: I just got off the phone with Derek Perez, Director of NVidia PR, according to Perez, while NVidia has in fact hired third party marketing firm Arbuthnot Entertainment Group (AEG) to market on their behalf, Perez has denied any allegations that either NVidia, or AEG on NVidia's behalf, has paid money to individuals for posting positive marketing news about NVidia in forums. While Perez has confirmed that NVidia has in fact given hardware to individuals in the mainstream press as well as enthusiasts in online communities, they deny that any cash has been paid to individuals for promoting their products by them or AEG to the best of their knowledge.
- mcbesq, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Not really a surprise. It happens all the time. My personal favorite is the "customer reviews" for games that have not yet been released, proclaiming how great the unreleased (and likely unfinished) games are.
Viral marketing is not new. It's just shilling with a few extra syllables. The way to fight viral marketing is with viral antibiotics - i.e. a healthy dose of skepticism.
Sorry folks, not everything you read on the interweb is true. And anonymous posting is not without its drawbacks. - Bluezdood, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Seriously, if this is true, I am pissed.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1everyone has the right to comment, even those who work there
- justjosh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1silentspyder mentioned the Frontline on this. It's called Merchants of Cool and its by Douglas Rushkoff (awesome journalist on matters of advertising). Here's the link to watch the show online:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/view/
Frontline's great by the way. They've been doing online videocasts for at least 5 years now. I saw this episode back then and just assumed the forum plants as standard fare. The good question beyond this though is how do we know consumer journalism is much more reliable. There's good research that implies that when people are given a free gift, they automatically scratch the givers back, even if they don't like them. I do game journalism and I haven't taken freebies yet for this reason.
By the way, if anyone likes that Frontline, they should watch Rushkoff's other episode, "The Persuaders." Great stuff. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1no such thing as bad press.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Or perhaps this story has been planted by an ATI mole? But seriously, anything I read on the internet is mostly hype or bashing. Isn't there a middle ground?
- nocircleno, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Companies do this because we all have grown to distrust regular advertisements. Peer recommendations and guerilla marketing are hot stuff. And the internet helps this because most of us have no physical relationship with each other. Trust is something that is built and never trust someone you’ve never meet.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't get what the big deal is.
It's absolutely and utterly irrelevant as to whether nVidia or AEG are doing anything. If you form your opinion solely on the plug of someone on a forum, you're a dumbass. Belittling nVidia/AEG doesn't make you any smarter.
From the link it looks like this has dragged on for a while. Get over it kids. Buy an ATI if you think somehow that an nVidia card is "worse" because of some chumps on a forum. - Jarrod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
I hope companies realize it just bites them in the end. My next video card purchase will not be an Nvidia card if this is true. - EviLiu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Years ago, Firingsquad had an article about ATI that caused a big uproar. It was about how ATIs drivers *forced* certain settings to something below maximum, so that if a benchmark was run at seemingly mex settings, you were actually running medium settings. It was in the days of Quake II, and the article referred to the false benchmarks as Quack II benchmarks.
I'm running on an ATI X800 now, but I'd probably still be an nvidiot fanboy if I wasn't able to get it used at a $275ish discount. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1even worse, it looks like they're just trying to ignore the story so it'll just "go away". let's put the pressure on them to at the very least give a response.
- thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Jimio, I have in fact traded emails this morning with Derek Perez, PR Director for NVidia, as well as spoke with him on the phone. I've also got an email and phone message in with AEG and will report back if/when I hear from Lesli Arbuthnot about what their practices are. Perez has in fact denied that they pay people to do this or that they are aware of AEG paying people to do this. Believe what you want, but getting a PR person on the phone or by email is not that difficult. Most companies make their PR folks very accesible.
- thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think there is a difference between this and Microsoft's MVP program. First off Microsoft doesn't actually pay people cash they give them support and services and all of the MVPs are publicly on record as such. Most MVPs prominently highlight this fact when they post.
The latest from Derek Perez: "Update #5: I posted the following set of scenarios to Perez.
"There are three scenarios as I see it.
1. This entire practice is fabricated and AEG does not hire people this way to post about products for money.
2. This practice does happen and AEG does in fact hire people to post
large amounts of legitimate posts in forums and then also directs these
same people to post on your product but you are not aware of this, or
3. This practice does happen and AEG does in fact hire people to post
large amounts of legitimate posts in forums and then also directs these
same people to post on your product and you are aware of this practice
and compensate AEG for this type of marketing knowingly."
Perez has responded back as follows:
"Not sure where the confusion is - but #3 is pretty accurate. NO money exchanges hands."
I've asked Perez for further clarification and he's responded that the relationship is similar to that of a PR agency. - steveo2112, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This type of viral message forum spam is known as:
Ashleeturfing
http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/38963 - lightningrod220, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Whatever happened to just making a good product, then letting the customers practically do the advertising for you?
- rm999, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I am tired of "viral marketing." It almost always breaks the rules of the law, terms of services (like in this case I am guessing the forums did not like what was going on), or basic societal mores. In the end some people may be tricked, but when crap like this comes out it can't possibly help the company.
- wangarific, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Pretty lame on the part of nvidia.
- kiwimonk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0When you have feature rich drivers stable drivers for windows and linux.. You have time for on the side pet projects such as this ;) Unlike the Other Brand..
- phunlee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0No Digg. This headline is a very "Fox News"-esque headline. Making the affirmitive while posing the question. It might be true, but that's bad reporting. in my opinion
- salmonmoose, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Nvidia Owns on all market levels right now." Besides prefering my FireGL to the Quadro, ATi's research that they show at siggraph blows nVidia out of the water, nVidia has become stagnant and intel like, making graphics cards faster, but not better.
- morrisonm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0this happens everywhere, all the time
not saying its right, just that most opinion sites are stacked by the company - Zeush8su, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0so what,my 7800gtx still spanks ATi cards with a vengeance I will always stick with nvidia products regardless of what weird stuff they do to promote their products.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Why isn't google coming to the rescue?? Shouldn't nVidia have their site's pagerank dropped to zero for being evil. Google, save us!
- ericscampbell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm just impressed they pay people actual money for the crappy reviews -- I always thought the shills just got free crap for thier trouble.
- anamanaman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0You guys are waaaaaay too sensitive
- thomashawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I have contacted AEG as well to try to get clarification from them as well. Will report back if I hear from them.
- diggerphelps, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"leverage fans"
God I hate PR people.
They always have "honesty issues." - Tobey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I don't really care. nVidia is certainly not the first to do this. I'm sure there are hundreds of people who do it. It's viral marketing my friend, and it works. ...I think.
- ByteGuerilla, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I heard this a while ago, but it was about EA, not nVidia. Not sure about this one... sounds like a perversion of an original story, but if it turns out to be true, my next graphics card will be ATi
- diggerphelps, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I just read about nVidia in us weekly. Those guys at the consumerist.com site were total jerks.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Universal Music Group's doing the same thing: http://digg.com/music/Universal_Music_Group_Hiring_Actors_to_Plug_Their_Products
- smergs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Who gives a damn if they did? I mean that would be pretty lame but it's not even needed. I mean come on, why would they even need that. Nvidia Owns on all market levels right now. Only way I'd end up with an ATI is if I end up getting an XBOX 360.
- craigtheguru, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Record companies have been using this online version of "street" viral marketing for years now.
But stooping to record company levels is pretty bad. - STKD, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Nvidia don't have to pay me to recommend their products on forums. I've always used Nvidia cards and never had any stability or other problems as I know people who use ATI cards have.
(Incidentally Nvidia, I do accept cheques and credit cards...) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0sony paid spray paint artists to tag walls
warner paid street artists to learn jonny cash songs for their new movie
congressmen edit their own and opponates wikipedia entries
this doesnt surprise me and i am quite sure we will get more and more of this
soon republicains and democrates will post digg comments supporting or not political posts.
I say it sucks but get used to it. - JayA, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0So many companies do this it's not even funny...what's new?
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