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Creative threatens community modder

forums.creative.com — We are aware that you have been assisting owners of our Creative sound cards for some time now, by providing unofficial driver packages for Vista that deliver more of the original functionality that was found in the equivalent XP packages for those sound cards. In principle we don't have a problem with you helping users in this way...

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  • antz007x, on 03/29/2008, -17/+205Creative just done a kurt cobain -.-
    • loroleg, on 03/29/2008, -19/+25Did you *****
      • LongShlong, on 03/29/2008, -15/+23***** you *****.
      • fxu1989, on 03/30/2008, -4/+9I think "pulled" fits better.

        "Creative just pulled a Kurt Cobain"
        • kidcodea, on 03/30/2008, -1/+4creative has been "dead" for some years now. and they were always lame in support and closed drivers etc.
          cant w8 for the day they DIE. they are useless and a cancer.
          • diggduggjoe, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3So sad, Sound Blaster 16 was the freak'n holy grail. Instead of innovating, they have reduced themselves to forcing upgrades to new cards for they refuse to support older cards in new operating systems. I noticed that almost 10 years ago when I did more system builds. They juiced over every new MS OS release for it was a great opportunity to force turnover in their client base. Why do you think basic audio is so common now? Their evil ways made it easier for any chipset with broad support to succeed. I hated how even the W95 to W98 change could be painful. The W98 to ME was worse and the ME to XP was horrific! They made their bed, let them die in it!
          • GliTCH82, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3I wish that was the extent of it, they find ways to release similar cards under new name brands within the SAME Microsoft OS lifetime just to milk people for more money. Example: Audigy vs Audigy 2, vs Audigy 4, vs X-Fi. It's ridiculous. In fact, the guy that was modding the drivers even realized in the process that Creative was purposely crippling them so that people with certain cards wouldn't get the benefits that people with other cards have when the hardware is essentially the same. Also, they were purposely crippling Vista drivers so that Vista users might want to upgrade to whatever it is they have planned after the X-Fi.

            That's probably why they wanted him to stop, before he blew their operation wide open. Creative is a shady company and I'm never going to buy another product from them again, period.
      • amirman, on 03/30/2008, -1/+2done did
      • GliTCH82, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2Sorry for the hi-jack but here are some of Creative's higher-up contact numbers and e-mail. Call and give them a piece of your mind:



        Lisa Laymon

        Investor Relations

        Creative Labs, Inc.

        llaymon@creaf.com

        (408) 546-6106



        Phil O'Shaughnessy

        Creative Labs, Inc.

        poshaughnessy@creativelabs.com

        (408) 546-6773
    • stolemybike, on 03/29/2008, -56/+1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0&fmt=18
    • SirNoobius, on 03/29/2008, -17/+5an hero?
      • LogitechG15, on 03/29/2008, -1/+40Creative just earned themselves an enormous amount of bad PR. Internet Rule Number 1: Don't Piss Off the Internet
    • techmaster, on 03/29/2008, -0/+33Can somebody post a link to Daniel K's drivers? I think that would be a nice thing to do, after Creative Labs took the link off their site. :)
    • techmaster, on 03/29/2008, -1/+36Oh, one more thing... everybody should go on sites like newegg and start giving creative's products a bad review.
      • tcm112007, on 03/29/2008, -1/+15I second that.
      • wes00mertes, on 03/30/2008, -2/+5I don't think I can do that, since I didn't purchase the product. But aside from that, wouldn't they already have terrible ratings? If I got a product that didn't work at all until I found drivers produced by another user who was fed up, I wouldn't give the product a 5/5 even if it worked after that. I had to go to the trouble of finding drivers that another user had to go through the trouble of making.

        Creative really ***** up.
        • Mike89, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2Nah you can, there's two types of ratings - one of them is purchased from NewEgg, the other is standard.
    • robdiggity, on 03/30/2008, -0/+21Good news everyone!

      http://www.creative.com/corporate/investor/

      No doubt there will be more of this news to come. I suppose it's time to short the living ***** out of CREAF.

      On another note, how dumb is this guy Phil O'Shaughnessy? I mean, what did he THINK was going to happen? Where do they GROW these people?
      • fuzzybeard, on 03/30/2008, -0/+11Same place as they grow mushrooms. Kept in the dark, & fed lots of *****.
      • xptoast, on 03/30/2008, -0/+4If anything he was doing Creative a favor in providing something at no cost to them in which people actually liked. Wow they were dumb. Free drivers written and all they had to do is let him have his thread? Free service and all they had to do is let him distribute? Freaking retarded management. Why is management so stupid?
      • magus_melchior, on 03/30/2008, -0/+6I guess suspension of reality is a requirement to be a corporate executive. More to the point, swatting a user with the EULA and forum rules while not providing proper support or drivers for your product will kill a company in the long run, even one with the brand recognition of Creative.
    • pimpofpixels, on 03/30/2008, -1/+7It looks like they caved and recovered his posts.

      http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board?boar ...
      • techmaster, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3From another thread:
        I checked with management, and it was decided we would bring back the Audigy Support Pack thread and allow you to continue in that endeavor. As long as no intellectual property of Creative is distributed, we will have no problem with it. I will get the thread reposted shortly.
        Dale
        • Jonno549, on 03/30/2008, -0/+5A bit late for them now. What A PR disaster
        • MacEnvy, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Good for Dale (the mod). I kind of suspected he wasn't pleased with management's decision.
    • TxAggie08, on 03/30/2008, -0/+7Wow, I use to always like Creative products and have sold what is probably thousands of their products when I worked at Best Buy. I will never again buy a Creative product nor recommend them for anyone else. Congrats Creative, you're *****. There will be tens of thousands of people that do the same. On the bright side, maybe I can make some cash shorting your stock.
      • G-RaZoR, on 03/30/2008, -4/+1There will be Tens of Thousands...?

        highly unlikely.
        • TxAggie08, on 04/17/2008, -0/+1You are right, creative didn't have that many customers to begin with
    • hollyminkowski, on 03/30/2008, -0/+5So now I add Creative to my list of products to avoid.
      They are as bad as Iomega... and that's saying something.
    • krytz86, on 03/30/2008, -1/+4creative married courtney love?
    • dmbfan2007, on 03/30/2008, -0/+4too soon man ;-)
    • zephyrTR, on 03/30/2008, -6/+1They're not reprimanding him for fixing drivers. Did you read the note? They say they like that. It's when he's modding creative drivers to work with competing sound cards that it becomes a problem. The company's allowed to have aspirations of making a profit. Read the note carefully.
      • gfnw, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3No, they're upset that he's modding drivers to enable features on _CREATIVE_ cards that were purposely crippled to force users to upgrade.
    • whiteguysamurai, on 03/30/2008, -1/+1What?
      Had Cortney Love blow their brains out?
      /Washington state native!
      • toastgodsupreme, on 03/30/2008, -1/+1At least there are a few who know the truth. Kind of hard to OD, put the needle and drug ***** back in their case, and after that, take the time to blow your brains out, then wipe off the gun so there's no prints on it. Kobain was mighty talented if he pulled all that off. ;)

        And yeah, Creative shows it's true colors.

        "How dare you let people use our older products that we purposely crippled so they would have to buy our new ***** that does the exact same thing!!!!?!?"
        • sgregory416, on 03/31/2008, -0/+0"And yeah, Creative shows it's true colors." i lold
    • cainmi, on 03/30/2008, -1/+0quote correct, whiteguysamurai and toastgodsupreme, whether kurt did a creative is another story...
    • DCJoeDogaswell, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2Message to Creative Labs:

      I am aware that you have been letting down owners of Creative sound cards for some time now, by providing official driver packages for Vista that deliver less of the original functionality than that which is found in the equivalent XP packages for those sound cards. In principle I have no problem with you disappointing users in this way, so long as they understand that any driver packages you supply are crippled by Creative. Where I do have a problem is when technology and IP owned by Creative or other companies that Creative has licensed from, are made not to run on systems for which Creative does not want anyone to use it. You took action to remove Daniel_K's thread. This has nothing to do with being fair and compensated for goods and services. It is about how your products are placed on the market, and making more profit by deliberately keeping customers of already bought products from using the materials that you are distributing. By keeping others from enabling your technology and IP to run on sound cards for which you do not want to offer it, you are in effect, ripping off your customers. When you provide products like this and cripple the support in certain operating systems, you simply intend to sell more cards. Of course this is a business decision that you have the right to make.

      For me, it is a clear signal that you do not care about keeping customers happy. It is a business decision based on the idea that you can sell more cards and (thus) make more money by crippling the use of the ones we already bought. I'd ask you to respect your customers, but you do not seem to be contemplating this. In the same way you have taken down support offered by an enthousiast to all users, as a sign of sympathy for Daniel, and all those - like me - suffering the consequences, I will take out my Creative card and return it to your company at the address mentioned on your website: 1901 McCarthy Boulevard, Milpitas, CA 95035. The postage will be the last I'll ever spend on a Creative product.
    • flano1, on 03/30/2008, -2/+0***** Creationists! Vive la rEVOLUTION
    • hollyminkowski, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Just read this on the Creative board
      "Creative is getting out of the soundcard buisiness and going with lisencing their product as software to be included as onboard sound on motherboards so everyone bend over and prepare to take it dry. It's going to be hard to keep your money from Creative in the future. Let your favourite motherboard manufacturers know what you think of Creative's bussiness practices and their after sales support."

      So it looks like everyone needs to send email to the mobo makers warning them you won't be buying their boards if they go with Creative.
    • hollyminkowski, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1A great pic about this mess :-)
      http://i28.tinypic.com/1j0ua0.jpg
  • mantene, on 03/29/2008, -4/+538I used to like Creative but banning someone from restoring the features that they promise ON THE BOX when they themselves do not provide those features is absolutely insane. It is like buying a car with the 6 speaker Dolby stereo system only to find that, while it is in the car it isn't actually hooked up to the CD head unit. Then, when you decide to hook it up yourself you are told you cannot! So you are stuck with something that doesn't do what was promised and you are not allowed to do anything about it!
    • zephyr42, on 03/29/2008, -0/+141Daniel K existed in a kind of gray area, Creative was OK with him for a while because he was useful to them providing functionality etc... but when he started taking donations. THAT is when Creative got mad. I think Creative is doing a terrible dis-service to they're most loyal customers, audiophiles everywhere. I've been using my Audigy for a long long time and the new computer I build will be lacking anything Creative. Tis a sad day my long lost friend, you've run away from me.
      • shark72, on 03/29/2008, -2/+82It's not just that... Creative doesn't own all the code in their own driver. If they give the impression that they're just sitting around while somebody's linking to a pirated version on their own forum, they're wide open from a lawsuit from Dolby or some other licensor.
        • tuntcickle, on 03/29/2008, -1/+33that's a really valid point
        • zephyr42, on 03/29/2008, -0/+25That's very true, After reading through some of the thread one of the "senior contributors" or whatever mentioned that. What Creative did was exactly what a corporate manager would do....But if they talked to anyone that knows what's going on they would have hired him instead of disenfranchising a huge portion of their community.
        • Nameless1, on 03/29/2008, -16/+2Know what? Integrated audio FTW.
          Also they make ipod knock offs. BURRRN.
          • spyrochaete, on 03/29/2008, -14/+2Integrated audio sucks. I have an Audigy 2 that supports EAX 4.0 so I hear a wider variety of higher-quality effects than the AC97 codec which only supports EAX 2.0. Also, my Audigy has high quality output jacks and a more powerful onboard amplifier. The only thing I dislike about my Audigy 2 is that I can't record isolated channels so I have to use a relay to correctly record my DJ mixing software.

            I'm a big gamer so EAX spec is important to me. I've been happily buying Creative/Creative Labs hardware since Sound Blaster 1.0 but I'd gladly buy a competitor's product if it supported at least EAX 4.0. None seem to.

            The absolute truth is that even if Creative is a greedy company (in pricing and corporate policies) they make high quality products from high quality parts, so games sound amazing on them.
          • TheKorn2, on 03/29/2008, -4/+18(to spyrochaete)

            HIGH QUALITY OUTPUT JACKS?? **HIGH QUALITY OUTPUT JACKS**!?!?!??

            Oh my GOD man, are you the dumbest consumer EVER??? You're even more stupid than people who shell out for Monster-branded HDMI cables!

            And speaking of HDMI (& SPDIF), what on earth are you still using analog for??? High quality output jacks can SUCK A NUT compared to PURE DIGITAL OVER HDMI (and SPDIF)!

            You seem to care a lot about audio quality yet you USE YOUR SOUND CARD'S ON BOARD AMPLIFIER??!? What the hell man, do you work for CREAF or something!?? ON BOARD AMPLIFIERS SUCK DONKEY NARDS. Always have, ALWAYS WILL!
          • logandurand, on 03/30/2008, -1/+3@spyrochaete: You know that not all onboard audio is AC97, right? While I would argue that few people need more than that, most motherboards today offer 6 or 8 channel HD audio standard.
          • Maarek, on 03/30/2008, -2/+3@logandurand - That is fine to have 6/8 channels of sound, but that doesn't help the overall quality of the sound you know? What matters is the quality of the DACS used. Creative's cards pretty much blow any onboard/integrated setup out of the water on that. Also onboard cards tend to perform audio processing using the CPU which can hurt overall performance (some Creative cards do this too btw but the upper end ones do not). I don't use onboard because I can hear a huge difference.

            also to Spyrochaete and TheKorn2..... no Creative cards have onboard amplifiers (not since like the SB 16 have they). They send a line level out signal and require powered speakers with their own amplifier (because as TheKorn2 said, onboard amplification sucks hard). Also..... Sound is analog.... when we hear it, it is an analog signal..... the most important thing is making the right choice as to where the Digital to Analog conversion takes place (where are your highest guality DACs) and also how far of a run it is from your DAC to the receiver (or in most cases subwoofer of your speaker set). If I use an onboard or lower end Creative card, I use SPDIF because I know my amplifier does a better job of converting (because it has higher end DACs). If I am using my xfi, I use the analog outs as long as the cable run to the amplifier is only a few feet at most. The converters in most high end sound cards use DACs with a SNR of 105dB or higher (I think the xfi is something like 115) which means the analog signal has very little noise added in the conversion. This is better than the DACs in my receiver (which are somewhere around 95-100dB SNR).

            The point is....Digital output is not always better and there is nothing wrong with using analog outs if you know what you are doing.

            Also I might add that if you are using a bitstream like say DolbyDigital or DTS, that these use lossy compression schemes (they aren't bad at all really...probably not even audible for all but the most stuck of of audiophile....well exceot for DD live and the DTS equivilent....those can be pretty bad) which means you are losing likely more actual signal by going digital using a 5.1 compressed bitstream(assuming the source wasn't already a preencoded DD/DTS bitstream...if so the sound isn't there to begin with) compared to just running 3 stereo pairs out of the back of the card to an amplifier.

            I am not a Creative emploee (I am a former one) nor do I agree with their actions here.... but I still think they make great hardware.
          • spyrochaete, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2@thekorn2
            Yes, higher quality jacks. My onboard sound card has 4 outputs while my Audigy has 7. Depending on the speaker configuration my onboard card switches the role of the outputs to, for example, either rear channels or mic in. You can't have both at the same time. Also, if I insert a mini jack into the line out of my onboard card a certain way I have to rotate it or I can't hear some of the left channel. Ergo, the jacks are better on the Audigy just as I say.

            And as I said elsewhere, I need the onboard amplifier of the Audigy for my passive headphones when I'm DJing. The onboard sound card isn't loud enough so I can't hear the monitor clearly enough which makes it much harder to beatmatch correctly. Similarly, the onboard card doesn't amplify my microphone enough when I'm using VOIP like Skype.

            But thanks for calling me names and typing in caps. It makes your incorrectness all the more... loud.

            @Maarek
            Are you positive there's no amplifier on the Audigy 2? It's MUCH louder than my onboard or even my SB Live 2.
          • Maarek, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1@spyrochaete - I am 100% positive there is no onboard amplifier on the Audigy 2 (well not in the way we are talking...which is powering the speakers). All output is at line level. That said it doesn't mean that you can't have a "louder" sound from the Audigy 2..... the Audigy 2 might have a higher nominal level or may even be operating at a different line level set (you have +4, -10, and [rare] +6 dBU). Also it's possible that the voltage output from the Audigy 2 is just a bit hotter than the others..... I do recall hearing comments like this before, but it has been years since I did troubleshooting for Creative.
        • Maarek, on 03/30/2008, -0/+8I am a former Creative employee (in fact I was the original US moderator on the forum....a position now held by Dale-CL who was the one tasked with posting the statement) and I can tell you that despite the very tone deaf way in which it is being handled this is not the fault of the moderators or even the marketing people who wrote the statement. The problem in and of itself is that the people who make the decisions (read: Singapore Corporate HQ and to a lesser degree those in the higher positions of the regional companies) are way too insulated from the end users. People like Dale (and at one point myself) would do everything in our powers to make noise when there was an issue like this that would show up in the community. Our bosses would hear us out and talk to their bosses who would pass it on up..... the problem being that by the time the issue reached the ears of someone capable of making a major decision like this, a lot of time had passed and the the issue had been so filtered that there was no immediate sense of urgency. The only times we were able to really get something done was when we would find ways to short circuit the process. When we did, we often found the upper management very open and receptive to the problems.

          Ultimately the problem Creative has is with organization. The people all do really care about the products and the customers (from the bottom to the top I can promise) they just have an organization that seems as if it were designed to insure dysfunction and miscommunication. There are not enough people who feel empowered to make changes (despite as I found, often times being aggressive is rewarded) and thus there is a general worry of "sticking your neck out".

          Maybe this size of this controversy Will attract some attention to the real problem.
          • earthforce1, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1I think what we are seeing here is a true sea change in the way drivers are written and distributed.

            AMD has now been forced to open source their graphics card register specs. Customers are rebelling against locked iPhones. Vista sales are flat. Despite what MS has stated about the viral nature of open source it is now painfully apparent that closed source drivers where you don't even own all of your own code is the real legal time bomb. Creative would do well at this point to stub out the stuff they don't own and open source the rest so they can concentrate on selling hardware, and their fanbois can go to town reverse engineering the rest, and adding whatever cool features they want.
            This is yet one more reason why I left closed source OSs behind and migrated the five PCs in our house entirely over to Linux. I'll put up with the occasional glitches which are getting fewer in number, in order to not be shackled by onerous DRM and legal restrictions on what I can and can't do with my own software. Hardy 8.04 is working fine on my desktop with compiz fusion, I don't see how anyone could say it is is any less usable as a desktop than Xp or Vista. This is just one more bit of craziness I have chosen to leave behind.
      • spyd3rweb, on 03/29/2008, -17/+9Audiophiles wouldn't touch creative products with a 10ft pole.
        • solid12345, on 03/29/2008, -14/+10Well I think Creative makes decent mp3 players, much better than Apple.
        • sockpuppets, on 03/29/2008, -2/+5I used to think that- I hated all creative products. I have to admit the x-fi is a decent sounding product, however. I replaced my m-audio with it.
          • kidcodea, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1their newest ones are worse than x-fi. its like fake x-fi. a return to the past
        • AROZ, on 03/29/2008, -0/+7Creative went out of their way to make it difficult to modify their firmware on mp3 players. It's their property they would say, so you can't give yourself some new features.
        • zephyr42, on 03/29/2008, -1/+12Sorry, when i talk about Creative, the only thing i'm really referring to is their sound card line which is in fact a good product if it weren't for their drivers.
        • spyrochaete, on 03/29/2008, -1/+5I use my Audigy 2 to DJ with Traktor DJ Studio. My Creative card sounds far, far better than my onboard AC97. I plug my headphones into the rear channel jack and the onboard sound card's maximum volume is much quieter than the Sound Blaster's. Also, the AC97 only supports 44.1kHz output while the Audigy 2 does 48kHz.

          I'm not sure I'd call myself an audiophile but I am a DJ and producer. The only sound card I've ever used that was better than a Sound Blaster was the Gravis Ultrasound, but that was back in the ISA days.
        • sephiroth965, on 03/30/2008, -2/+2Your forgetting that Creative is the company behind E-MU!
        • Aensland, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2@spyro: yeah, I had the chance to use a couple of other cards like the GUS and a Turtle Beach (I'm just a gamer and amateur musician). That was way back in the mid '90s. I used Creative stuff for the most part, and sadly, they always seem to screw up when it comes to drivers and support - their boards almost always have a bunch of these kinda complaints even back then. Makes me wonder how they can keep half-assing and still stay afloat.
        • luciferin, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1@Spyro: Volume does not = quality, in any stretch of the imagination.

          44.1kHz is quite enough for music playback, as only HD audio is sampled at 48kHz. And actually, If your Audigy 2 is up-sampling all of your CD albums to 48kHz for playback then I'd actually argue that it is more of a detriment (as that is not bitwise precision to what the artist intended you to hear), although I will agree it is unlikely you'll be able to perceive any difference.
        • spyrochaete, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1@luciferin
          If you're DJing and your monitor headphones are not loud enough then your accuracy and performance will be reduced in quality. You're right that CD plays at 44.1kHz, but I also transcribe from DAT which is 48kHz.

          But anyway, higher bitrate, higher EAX spec, and dedicated jacks make my Audigy 2 the best sound card I own.
      • ArrakisDune, on 03/30/2008, -0/+19A donation is just that though, a donation. No one was required to send the guy money for his work, but if you wanted to buy him a beer for doing a job Creative were unwilling / unable to do, I don't see the issue.

        I honestly think its got nothing to do with the donations and that Creative just wanted to pull the plug on them.
        Its all irrelevant though, Creative should be providing these drivers for *free*.
        • magus_melchior, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2It may have been an executive on a power trip.
      • theodenking, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2It's not like if they weren't donating that money to him Creative would somehow get their grubby mitts on it. And highly doubt that they amounted to proper compensation for Daniel K's hard work.
    • cheerio, on 03/29/2008, -8/+3Sounds like my Xen Touch. "That's why i've been like ***** creative." They lost me long ago.
    • tuntcickle, on 03/29/2008, -15/+7your analogy misses the point, daniel k was requesting donations from Creative clients who he distributed his work to--arguably making money off of IP that Creative owns. Just because it's legal to fix your own car's dysfunctional cd player doesn't imply that it's legal to profit off that method, no matter how community-friendly and product-supportive it is.
      i agree with the poster above me--Creative still made a mistake by enforcing their IP rights in this case. no reason to turn off enthusiastic/loyal/future customers over profits that they aren't taking advantage of
      • roosterjm2k2, on 03/29/2008, -3/+11Donations != payment... and when it comes to copyright, that makes a huge difference. Paying someone for their time, or because they did something for you because you want to, not because you are forced to, is not the same as being required to purchase something.
        • tuntcickle, on 03/29/2008, -7/+1i never said payment. i said profit.
        • roosterjm2k2, on 03/29/2008, -0/+11Still, its a donation. They are giving him money. There is no payment. There is no "this money is so you cna have this code" ... its just, "here, take this money... I like what you do."
        • cwgannon, on 03/30/2008, -1/+1Yeah, for sure.

          When I go to buy drugs, I always tell the man up front: "This is not a payment for a service you are providing, this is a donation." That way, if he's wired, you know, by the police, I'm not caught buying drugs. I'm just the unfortunate victim whose innocent charitable efforts got him caught up in a drug bust gone awry. I'm not a lawyer, but I think I'd likely walk on all charges.

          All rights for this idea are reserved, though, as I'm putting it in my upcoming book.
          • javaroast, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2The difference is that the drivers are available with or without a donation. Your dealer won't give you your drugs without that payment.
      • rac3r5, on 03/29/2008, -0/+18Your analogy is a bit faulty
        Tomorrow if my car breaks down and my mechanic fixes it, is it wrong for me to pay him for my services?
        Furthermore, say he doesn't charge me, like in the current case where everything is donation based.
        Is it wrong for me to give him some fruits, baked goodies or money even if he doesn't charge?
        • ThndrShk2k, on 03/29/2008, -0/+8or even give him money not as compensation, but as a donation to help him do the stuff he does, which is free car repair?
      • PopcornDave, on 03/29/2008, -2/+5But by your logic, which I understand your reasoning but don't agree with, how would an independent auto repair place be able to stay in business? They're fixing the IP of an auto company, right? And what about all the companies that make add on engine technology? Aren't they modifying someone else's IP?
        • ThndrShk2k, on 03/29/2008, -0/+9They buy the parts, take out other parts, and put new parts in.
          They don't make the parts, or copy the parts.

          They come from a land of parts, IP is a totally different monster. Cars would not be repaired if the company says "This product is not yours. It's ours. Sodd off and buy a new one if it breaks"
          That is why IP rights are BS half the time and the copyright system for digital stuff is all out of wack.
          • tuntcickle, on 03/30/2008, -1/+4yes, thanks for clarifying. there are generally very strict rules about how an IP product can be supplemented with "parts." it generally comes down to the line in the contract of usage that says that "any modifications to our product have to be made by us or else they're illegal"
    • ripple123, on 03/29/2008, -0/+40Sounds like people should sue creative for false advertising.
      • zephyr42, on 03/29/2008, -0/+12I could see a class action form in the near future.
    • tech42er, on 03/29/2008, -0/+40Creative really has a PR disaster on its hands. Over 30 pages of (former) customers declaring they'll boycott Creative. And as some one pointed out, your average computer user doesn't buy a sound card; only power users and gamers do. And we're the ones who read Digg/Slashdot/Reddit an see how Creative treats their customers.
    • zephyr42, on 03/29/2008, -2/+7Digg the further developments!! http://digg.com/hardware/Creative_Attempts_To_Keep ...
    • radu79, on 03/30/2008, -0/+5So far, I had quite a few Creative Labs cards, but after reading this *****, I will make sure I will not buy one of their cards in the future.
      It's just poor taste to do that to that guy.
    • zephyrTR, on 03/30/2008, -4/+2Taking donations for modded Creative drivers that work on their competitors' cards is not okay. He's just a really nice guy who didn't know the rules regarding what he was doing.
    • carlosos, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1I haven't tried running Vista with any Xi-Fi card but the bad Linux support was already reason enough not buy any more creative products that need drivers.
      I love the Xi-Fi Premium card under XP (even though I wish for better remote control configuration) but I was also using Linux some times before I bought the card.
      Great products but bad support :(
  • indigocc, on 03/29/2008, -1/+129Anybody know where you can get Daniel_k's latest release?
    And what soundcard should you buy now instead of creatives? Asus'?
    • antz007x, on 03/29/2008, -0/+37Indeed, Xonar makes a good alternative and is actually much better then X-Fi imo
      • elliotm01, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3Well, the Xonar D2X is not without its problems, either. I'm running beta drivers because the last stable build won't allow full hardware acceleration without some sounds being high pitched. Even the beta drivers have some trouble. =P It does have better hardware specs for home theater preference. Also supports OpenAL. So just waiting for drivers to catch up....hmmm....
    • nicknottaken, on 03/29/2008, -1/+52All his drivers for the Live!, Audigy Series, and XFI can be downloded from FileFront, uploaded by daniel_k (braziliantech). His Audigy Series EQ enabled driver pack and complete driver cd for the Audigy Series (XP/Vista) has been released via bittorrent in case Creative decide that they want FileFront to remove them.

      http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/38375297/
      • solid12345, on 03/29/2008, -1/+3Do they work on XP too, I find creative's driver support for my X-Fi to be a nightmare, I re-installed windows and can't get my soundfonts working again.
      • dartmanx, on 03/29/2008, -1/+11Isohunt? Isohunt? Why don't you just email your contact details to Creative yourself and skip the middleman?
    • Hindu_Wardrobe, on 03/30/2008, -0/+7My Turtle Beach sound card has proven to be very good to me
      • dartmanx, on 03/30/2008, -0/+10Does it make you sandwiches when you are hungry, and sing lullabies to you when you are sleepy?
    • ozsynergy, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3Cards based on the CMI 8788 chipset are said to be good.
      http://www.cmedia.com.tw/?q=en/PCI/CMI8788
      An example
      http://www.penstarsys.com/reviews/sound/auzentech/ ...
      Here's a forum about it
      http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-11281 ...
      • scy1192, on 03/30/2008, -1/+3C-Media's drivers are horrible. Half the time they don't even install.
    • CanIGetAWitness, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1I've had the Asus Xonar D2X for a few weeks now and love it. I am mainly HTPC with some games though. It was always Auzen Premiere (I like the X-Fi chip, just not "C") vs. Xonar D2X in my decision and the Xonar won hands down for several reasons. Good luck.
      • CanIGetAWitness, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Forgot to mention: XP Pro x86 and Vista x64 dual boot, no problems.
  • lameweb, on 03/29/2008, -6/+222I for one am boycotting Creative. and this needs to make the top page of digg. For the OEM to not write drivers that work drive me crazy and seemingly do it intentionally, this is something that should not be tolerated. The best way for me to show my distaste is to simply tell everyone i know and to not buy any of there products.
    • mbonzo531, on 03/29/2008, -1/+11I've been boycotting creative since vista, why should the community have to provide for a product that we are paying for.
      • marx2k, on 03/29/2008, -11/+3Obviously you haven't worked with Linux much....
        • specialK16, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1This has absolutely nothing to do with it. Linux is based and grows thanks to community effort, and do mind that you don't pay for Linux, other than RHEL which is on an enterprise level anyways.
          • marx2k, on 03/30/2008, -0/+0The point was that the community supplies the drivers while the hardware manufacturers completely (for the most part) turn a blind eye on an entire subsection of its users. It wasn't a bash against Linux (as it is my OS of choice @ home and @ work) :)
    • FlyinWhee, on 03/29/2008, -0/+19I'll be doing like one of the participant in that thread did: I'm selling what little Creative products I have left in my store, and then it's over. And it's more than just principle for what they did here - Do I really want to sell my customers products they won't be able to use in the next Windows, only a year and a half from now? I'll avoid myself the headaches.
    • temugen, on 03/29/2008, -0/+11Their Linux drivers are even worse :-/ OSS 4 FTW!
    • AzureRise, on 03/30/2008, -0/+8Just as long as you don't tell anyone at Best Buy not to buy it, they'll call the cops on you!
    • drwho9437, on 03/30/2008, -0/+5I swore off Creative in the sound blaster live days, they have no software abilities, it was always bloated and bad, once Envy got purchased by Via there was a reasonable alternative. I personally was sad to see Aureal die as it did. So long ago, creative is an ironic name for the company. It is only because audio has always taken the back seat to graphics that they have survived. Unfortunately, most people care more about the visuals of things than the sound.
      • magus_melchior, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3I pretty much stopped buying Creative after they gobbled up Ensoniq and cranked out cheap Ensoniq-based cards while simultaneously killing off further development.
    • animeguru, on 03/30/2008, -0/+6Count me in on that. Its bad enough that they've been providing ***** drivers for years, but to kick a guy in the nuts for doing them a favor? ***** that.
  • prompel, on 03/29/2008, -4/+333Dugg for ***** hitting the fan.
    • ctabone, on 03/29/2008, -0/+29Community Statistics
      There are currently 83 members online and 8,010 guests.
      • wes00mertes, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Will all this bad press you'd think they'd do something quick. They obviously realize the impact this is making.
        • Aensland, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Their forums have always had bunches of people complaining about drivers and support. It's amazing how long they've held out. I mean, *****, I had plenty of company when complaining about my 16-bit ISA Creative back in the day... and you know how old that is.
        • specialK16, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1"16-bit ISA Creative"

          Wow, didn't even know there were ISA sound cards. I feel so young.
    • drewskyjones, on 03/29/2008, -0/+15I believe the saying is "feces hitting the oscillating air circulator" ;-)
    • fitriidayu, on 03/29/2008, -4/+1ahahaha.. u guys are hilarious
    • xkorbin, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Pun intended?
    • gplpark92, on 03/30/2008, -2/+5http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5229/xfi2xa8.jp ...
  • FSugino, on 03/29/2008, -3/+279Say hello to Phil...
    poshaughnessy@creativelabs.com
    • ligyron, on 03/29/2008, -4/+19Sent simple, short and to-the-point email
      • h4mx0r, on 03/29/2008, -1/+46"You're a ***** douche. Thanks."
        Like that?
        • contradictator, on 03/30/2008, -0/+16More like:

          "Dear Phil,

          ***** you.

          Love,
          Everybody"
      • Botrax, on 03/30/2008, -1/+2I will email Phil the rant I just put up on http://www.*****.com. He's bound to get the message for sure with all of us sending in our comments. :)
        • Botrax, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Made it polite with links to the article that not polite at all.
          From: Botrax
          To: 'poshaughnessy@creativelabs.com'
          Subject: www.*****.com comments on Vista drivers for Sound BLaster sound cards
          I would like Creative to know about my concerns with the lack of Vista drivers for legacy and current products. Sadly, the comments are an outright rant. This article on www.*****.com is reproduced below in this email for your convenience:
          http://www.*****.com
          http://www.*****.com/tiki-read_article.php?a ...
          -Botrax
          (cut out the article for this Digg post)
    • bingobongony, on 03/29/2008, -34/+2Let's GIT 'em! Because we are all cavemen...or at least that is where we stopped evolving!
    • DestroyFascism, on 03/29/2008, -0/+15I should put that in the reply to all the fraud spams I get for viagra and bounce them.
    • ruded0g, on 03/29/2008, -0/+13I've also sent a very short and to the point email. I would love to see the look on his face Monday morning when he checks his email LOL
    • over900000, on 03/30/2008, -28/+2I am going to rape his daughter.
    • gsadamb, on 03/30/2008, -0/+20Dear Sir:

      I will never give your company another cent. Not only is your company incompetent enough that you fail to deliver your promised functionality, but you personally are so oblivious and clueless that you want to keep your users from doing your job, and you publicize that fact on your forums. I am excited about this inevitable backlash because your superiors will surely recognize what terrible judgment you have made.

      XXX, former customer
      • jjmckay, on 03/30/2008, -1/+6If you tell them you'll never give them another cent then your words are worthless to them, no? If however you tell them how they can earn you back as a customer, that might be more constructive and influential.
        • magus_melchior, on 03/30/2008, -2/+4Nah, if O'Shaughnessy's from the Harvard school of business thought, he's already treated gsadamb as part of the churn. Churn, in a sentence, is "Don't worry/care/think about the irate customers that leave, just blitz the consumers with marketing." The most effective way to get something done in a company with this model is to threaten their reputation.
    • Coolone84, on 03/30/2008, -0/+14Hi.
      Whats up with you guys stomping on enthusiasts? Didn't you learn anything about how AMD handled people getting around their locked processors? People used to use PENCILS to unlock their socket A processors, letting us overclock as much as we damn we pleased (also increasing their sales I might add). So what did AMD do? They just made the processors out of a different material. Oh sure, people were still able to get past it, but you had to take a freaking KNIFE to the chip, and if you screwed it up, you may as well have just drilled a hole into it and put it on your keychain for the sake of nerdy bling. The point is, AMD didn't go threatening legal action against their customers, perhaps you could learn a thing or two from them.

      -Former Customer
      • Mike89, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2Huh? If you ask me, AMD are just as bad...
    • PakoBedejo, on 03/30/2008, -0/+6I just sent him:

      Mr. O'Shaughnessy,

      I am the owner of an X-Fi Gamer sound card, manufactured by your organization & sold to me by Newegg.com. I would like to point out a few cold, hard truths to you, of which it appears your organization is currently unaware.

      When I purchased my X-Fi Gamer card, I purchased hardware. I say this because that is precisely what was marketed. I did not purchase software. The industry-wide standard of business is to provide software drivers to enable this hardware to work upon my platform.

      Upon installation of my X-Fi Gamer sound card, I inserted the drivers disc. When I started the driver installation, I was presented with a license agreement. Well, at this point, what were my options? If I were to disagree to this "contract", my only recourse would be to return the card to Newegg.com for a restocking fee & lost shipping costs. Morally...if not legally...I'm not bound to any post-sale agreements. If I'm to be bound by any terms, they must be upon the packaging and you must retain a copy of my agreement. I understand that, legally, the waters are muddy in this area. However, morally, I believe your own forums will confirm that most of your customer base is in agreement with me. I would wager that the greater bulk of consumers see things precisely how I've detailed them. So, I did press the accept button...which actually doesn't specify what I accepted. I might assume that I'm accepting the block of useless text above it, or I might assume that I'm simply accepting to move to the next step of the installation. Again, this isn't Adobe Photoshop here. It's a driver to make the hardware work. Your "software" isn't a product by any real sense of the word.

      Now, what I'm seeing (on your own forums) is that I will most likely have issues with my X-Fi Gamer if I see fit to install Vista. I find this odd, because Newegg.com lists the X-Fi Gamer as "Certified for Windows Vista". I'm also seeing that a member of your customer-base & unpaid customer support "Super Contributor" is being asked to take down work he has done for the benefit of your customers. I'm sure you're well-versed in what's happening there, so I'll cut to the chase.

      My only conclusion is that Creative is failing to meet its customers' driver needs for advertised application. I do understand that support for new operating systems cannot be expected. However, the X-Fi series of cards are listed as being certified for Vista. Therefore, you have a moral, if not legal, obligation to provide fully functioning & reasonably bug-free drivers for your hardware to work within Vista.

      When a member of your community steps up & does this for you, you insist that he cease & desist. Whether he was taking donations or not is beside the point (he had a real time investment). Your copyrights on the drivers are morally beside the point. Your customers purchase hardware & expect it to run well within the environments you've certified it for. If the drivers will not suffice, then they will be changed whether you like it or not. That's not a threat in any way. It is reality. If daniel_K doesn't do it, then someone else will or your customer base will leave you very quickly. And no...we will not purchase new drivers. Those are a part of the hardware purchase.
      • ceraphin, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2i could problem copy and paste your message cause all conditions are the samme as they were for me
    • Mootabolife, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3Hello,

      I'm lost customer number XXXXXX.

      Enjoy your mistake.
  • nitecow, on 03/29/2008, -1/+90I posted on the forum in support of Daniel_K and recommend the same. That is what Creative will read. The sad part is..His drivers are seriously the only reason my sound works. It took me a while to find a fix for the drivers and he was the answer.
    • wes00mertes, on 03/30/2008, -0/+10His drivers are the only reason a lot of people having a working sound card.
    • The_Wallbanger, on 03/30/2008, -0/+5I'm really surprised that Creative hasn't deleted this thread.
      • magus_melchior, on 03/30/2008, -0/+4They can try to C&D this thread, but it'll be like pouring gasoline on the fire.
      • sfacets, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2They would have a CoS situaltion on their hands if they tried that.
  • BigKenW, on 03/29/2008, -1/+75This is just too bad. One of the reasons I stopped buying Creative a long time ago was their propencity for just dropping support for a product. Does anyone remember the Creative Labs 3D0 Game System card for the PC?

    I finally relented and thought Creative changed its ways when I purchased a Creative Zen Vision:M a few years ago because I didn't want to be an Apple fan boy. What was I thinking? Support for that was horrible. I actually felt good when I crossed over to the Dark Side and bought a Microsoft Zune, quite possibly the best media player experience I have ever had, consistently updated, and user/community support has been great.

    When I purchased my laptop, I intentionally purchased it without an optional Creative Sound card.

    Eventually Creative will get the point... or they will hemorrhage revenue.
    • Gatesophile, on 03/29/2008, -0/+12That's how I felt when I switched from my Creative Zen to a Sandisk, to a Zune, things just got better once I realized that my Zen kinda sucked, Sandisk kinda sucked, and then got a Zune which so far is the best by far.
    • willynilly, on 03/29/2008, -0/+11Creative will never get the point. This company has worked very hard to squander its potential. It practically invented the MP3-player market, but then created products that made no sense. A hard-drive-based music player disguised as... a disc player? A large ROUND device, to house a relatively small hard drive?

      Then they come out with the Zen, which looked like an interesting iPod competitor but NOPE; you couldn't just hook it up to any computer; you needed special software that was only for Windows, and it had no line out... where does it end? And Creative was informed of these problems and blew them off.

      So now they're still just a peripherals company, when they could've been the inventor of the iPod. Monumental stupidity that apparently still continues.
      • Aensland, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3It's sad. They had a huge leg-up at the start, and then piss it all away. I got a Zen too, and when it died after only a month I went to search on the forums, and guess what, it was a common occurance... wtf. Used to love 'em back in the day since they were practically the only budget soundcard guys in town, but that's about it. Nowadays I find myself looking at their catalogue and then hoping that a competitor has a similar product because I really really don't want to waste money on another dud.
      • RationalXubrnce, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2 The Zen could have been an ipod killer but they just didn't care enough. You can't plug it to other computers without a huge hassle, not even to charge and you can no longer just drag and drop in folders which to me was creatives' biggest strength. How is a stupid file managing program easier than copy/paste?
      • Mootabolife, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Sounds like the next company to make a decent competing soundcard might be in for a surprise.
    • Theli, on 03/30/2008, -0/+7I think Creative just doesn't like drivers. It's the only explanation I can come up with.
      I love their hardware (own a Zen Vision:M, X-Fi XtremeMusic and an Aurvana X-Fi) though. The Zen now finally works out of the box with Ubuntu, no thanks to Creative though. I'm still waiting for support for my sound card.
    • Gogogo111, on 03/30/2008, -0/+4***** Zen is *****. I was like you, didn't want to be an Apple fanboy, but there is so many problems with mine its kinda sad. Its like they didn't even test the product.
    • SpeedSteamBoat, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2Not to intrude on your Creative hate fest, but I've been extremely happy with my Zen Vision:M. Has worked well, especially with the past few firmware updates. The hardware is great. What sucks is the software that it comes with. It's nigh unusable. Luckily Amarok does a WAY better job handling things. (Though I wonder if Creative will come after the MTP Device crowds since they are "making [their] hardware work with software which [they] did not intend")

      Regardless, in light of this I won't be recommending Creative products to anyone like I've done in the past.
    • Gryffydd, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1You guys realize that by going out of your way to buy something that sucks you're being something just as bad as an Apple fanboy? Just buy the best MP3 player, who cares who makes it? Being a fanboy isn't a result of just buying and using the best product in a category.
      • magus_melchior, on 03/30/2008, -0/+5Yeah, but there's something to be said for avoiding a product marketed by a company with piss-poor management.
    • SteveCUBE, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2"When I purchased my laptop, I intentionally purchased it without an optional Creative Sound card."

      I made the mistake of including that in my purchase. The sound card's Line In can't play back. It's a bug, it'll never be fixed.
  • Remmy, on 03/29/2008, -5/+68It's total *****. Plain and simple. This guy helped the community and Creative themselves by providing functionality that they simply didn't offer. He asked for donations which more than anything covered the time he put in to the project. He wasn't asking to be paid for the drivers. I'll never buy another thing from Creative.
    • yawnstretch, on 03/29/2008, -1/+4Ditto
    • Kronk42583, on 03/30/2008, -11/+1umm your wrong. asking for donations is pretty much asking for money for releasing the drivers, it doesn't matter how long it took. while it is lousy of creative to not fully support their products, it is their choice to do so. i thought that the post to him was actualy somewhat understanding and considerate of them, it could have just been a cease and desist or we sue you type post. and lastly, how stupid is this guy to be doing all of this on creative own forum? ANYWHERE else would have probably been less noticable.
      • pkScary, on 03/30/2008, -0/+0The point is to get help to Creative product owners where it IS noticeable.
        • Kronk42583, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1people can use google to find whatever they need. he had to know that creative would get upset. and to say that he helped creative is probably wrongs also, as creative might want consumers to have to buy a new card that would have better support for different OS's. now again, its a dick move by creative, but no one can be surprised by that post and i personally think that it wasn't nearly s harsh a tactic as most other companies would do.
  • Osuperman, on 03/29/2008, -4/+149Wow this is such bad PR... I'm glad though, it's about time Creative went bust, they are really quite ***** at what they do.
    • bingobongony, on 03/29/2008, -25/+3Yeah..this silly post on this forum. and on Digg is really going to take down Creative.

      Tell me...what color is the sky in your fantasy world?
      • Myonosken, on 03/29/2008, -1/+5Wow, do the site staff only allow you to keep your account to create some sort of mythical user? Because it is working.

        Given a huge chunk of Creative's profits come from Tech users, stories such as this getting around will destroy their market. Quite often they will avoid that risk early on and actually do something to save face - eg, push through their own set of drivers
        • bingobongony, on 03/29/2008, -15/+2You are severely delusional if you think that Digg or any tehc forum repretnt a large poriton of all tech users.

          Not all tech users are virgins like you.
        • UnWeave, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4Was a good post until that stupid, irrelevant, needless insult at the end.
        • Aensland, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2@UnWeave: it wouldn't be him without it.
      • Osuperman, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Green!
    • Mootabolife, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1They've been leaching off of the good work of their past employees for years now.
  • rajputwarrior, on 03/29/2008, -5/+64i really hope this gets dugg to death so it makes creative look like a bunch of doushebags
    • willynilly, on 03/29/2008, -0/+10Creative lost the market it invented, MP3 players, to a competitor that merely produced a competent product. The iPod is nothing more than the obvious design for such a device (possibly excepting the click wheel), but Creative lacked the common sense to devise it.

      The fact that they still limp along inspires wonder.
      • Kornstalx, on 03/30/2008, -0/+4Actually, Diamond Multimedia first successfully marketed the 'portable mp3 player' in North America.
        I worked at Babbage's the day they first hit the shelves (circa 1997?)

        Creative got on the MP3 player bandwagon much later.
        And iPod was light years later...
      • Maarek, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2I think he meant the HDD based MP3 player. Which the Jukebox was not the first, but is often viewed as the real originator due to its use of an internal database for tracking songs and information (as well as the interface for which the whole Apple lawsuit was for). The first Creative MP3 player (the Nomad) was released not long after the orignal Diamond Rio (sometime late '97 early '98) and for the time it was a great player by the standards then.

        I wouldn't say the Ipod design was obvious as at the time most portable audio players were CD based which had a design very similar to that of the original Jukebox. Also say what you will about asthetics, but there was never a portable MP3 player more competent than the Jukebox 3. Feature for feature there are few that can touch it (especially with the optical out).
    • str1fe, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1douchebags too
  • quan04, on 03/29/2008, -1/+32I'm gonna share with my friends and let everyone know!
  • Krokr, on 03/29/2008, -1/+59Bought many of their products since the original soundblaster, including thousands of soundcards for a work network, but won't be doing so again. I've lived with their dodgy drivers for a few years now, but their attitude towards a hobbyist who is helping their community is disgraceful. Any sensible company would have offered Daniel a job and enjoyed the benefits of solid drivers for their kit, improving customer satisfaction and increasing brand loyalty. Let me welcome Creative to the list of companies that'll never get my money again.
    • RedHerringHack, on 03/29/2008, -1/+22They don't WANT the legacy cards to work. Get it? They want you to buy a new card from them.
  • djmak, on 03/29/2008, -0/+30I was extremely unimpressed, I just built a new computer (with vista) and I was planning on getting a sound card and was doing some research on what I wanted and came across this... so now what
    • RedHerringHack, on 03/29/2008, -1/+15Don't buy creative labs products is what you do.
    • flangepiece, on 03/29/2008, -2/+8AC97, dude. Onboard sound has been usable (at the very least) for a long time. Especially if you're using Vista, which has a very different audio architecture to th e likes of XP (thank DRM methinks) - which is supposedly one of the reasons Creative were unable to find their arse with both hands when Vista hit the shelves (and ummm the betas were out for HOW long before that happened?)...
      • gcnaddict, on 03/29/2008, -0/+10Longhorn was out to hardware manufacturers since 2003 (and all devs attending PDC2003 had access to Longhorn build 4051). 2004 saw the release of 4074 to hardware engineers.

        Internal Vista lab builds were handed out to hardware vendors starting at around 5020 when some of the functionality from the dead pre-reset Longhorn branch was ported to the post-reset Longhorn branch (late 2004 or so). 5048 was released at WinHEC05; bits and pieces of the new sound stack had made it into that build, and Creative's devs had been informed of this. 5112 (beta 1) saw its release on July 27 I believe, and it also had more sound stack additions.

        The completed (yet buggy) sound stack was finally merged into build 5231 in November 2005. From this point on, changes were made to the API and *many* bugs were fixed by Microsoft, but the functionality was not changed. The (mostly) final API for the sound stack could be seen in 5308, the CTP build released in February of 2006.

        In other words, it's been more than two years since Creative had what they needed, and a long-ass time since when they found out what to look forward to.
      • Lunarbunny, on 03/29/2008, -0/+6AC '97 is less common than Intel HDA these days. Both will work fine though, but I recently (before this *****) got an X-Fi and was impressed with the improvement. So while you can argue over integrated for cost, a discrete sound solution will always be better. I have no personal experience with manufacturers other than Creative, but I've had Auzentech recommended to me before. They actually even have their own X-Fi offering, although A) that's still supporting Creative and B) I'm not sure how their driver implementation is.
    • bigolblob, on 03/29/2008, -1/+2Well, the two other main companies producing sound cards would be Asus and M-Audio, so look into those. There may be Vista drivers for some, and if not, then I'm sure they're in beta. Sorry I can't give you any personal experiences, though, since I'm running Linux.
    • BrainRecall, on 03/30/2008, -0/+6I highly recommend: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Sub ...
      Either one are rather good. No hardware acceleration (quad-cores are out now, come on!) and lack of anything above EAX 2 (because Creative refuses to release the specs on them, surprise!).
      • djmak, on 03/30/2008, -0/+0agreed, vista sound is better than xp by default, but I was planning on a home theater unit with some decent speakers so I was looking into what I sound card would have to offer in terms of quality in this setup.
    • Zera, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3Turtle Beach!
  • akkibaba, on 03/29/2008, -4/+124This is what happens in a lot of tech companies : Engineers start the company, and then the useless people with business degrees take over. They then proceed to run the company into the ground through their total lack of understanding of the technology or their customer base. I hope Creative doesn't go down that path.
    • secrity, on 03/29/2008, -0/+37They already are on that path.
      • Aensland, on 03/30/2008, -1/+4They've been on that path since the days of ISA soundcards. Their forums were always full of similar complaints and unanswered queries, I'm surprised they're still standing. I remember googling my username and finding a post I made a couple years back, and it only had replies by yet other users with the same problem.
    • the_snitch, on 03/29/2008, -0/+25I think this is enough evidence that they are so far down that path, they've forgotten the way back
    • solidcube, on 03/30/2008, -0/+12Too late.
    • BirdCatcher, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3maddox gave your comment a +1 digg. If he has time to digg he has time to finish that secret project!
    • wolberwj, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2Creative probably fired the whole marketing department.
    • Mootabolife, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2Those cut throat businessmen don't realize that you can't be cutthroat with your customers. Imagine the amazing publicity this would have generated had they post something like "We at Creative congratulate the work of the modders in the community.. etc.. we would be pleased to offer you a job.. etc"

      But they just ***** themselves now.
  • dunn2953, on 03/29/2008, -0/+87they should have hired him. if i had known about his driver i wouldnt have sold my X-fi
    • willynilly, on 03/29/2008, -0/+8This is what companies with common sense do. But Creative? Forget it.
    • wolberwj, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Could not agree more.
  • gplpark92, on 03/29/2008, -1/+7lol all the Epizenter people are going crazy i bet
    • elliotm01, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3Fortunately, I have had any trouble with my ZEN Vision:M. I only wish for greater capacity and FLAC support. Since the 3 years I first bought it, I've only seen the latest Creative ZEN compare as far as what I want from a player, except still no FLAC support. :( So Rockbox or hopefull the next best offering from Conwon iAUDIO will give me FLAC and 60GB along with all the other features in the ZVM I like.

      But this circumstance with the sound card drivers just sucks! Baaad move, Creative.
  • shark72, on 03/29/2008, -28/+4I wonder what would happen if some kind soul were to distribute a hacked version of OS X and asked for donations to cover his time. Would Apple take a similar stance?

    Even though OS X isn't free and you get Creative drivers free with soundcards, they have one thing in common: they include code licensed from other companies, and Apple/Creative have to pay somebody else each time one is distributed.
    • theragu40, on 03/29/2008, -1/+26Except someone who hacks OSX would not be doing so to restore functionality that is promised on the box but which Apple intentionally removed from the product. Your analogy makes sense only facially.
    • Twikkert, on 03/29/2008, -1/+22Not the same. OS X works just fine. These drivers don't.
    • jbhannah, on 03/29/2008, -1/+22That's something completely different though. Mac OS X is designed to run on Apple computers, Apple says it'll only run on Apple computers, and according to the Mac OS X Terms of Use it can only be used on Apple computers.

      Creative was ACTIVELY advertising that their products would be Vista-ready. They were not, and Creative was doing nothing about it; so a separate developer stepped in to fill in the gap that Creative was not making good on their promises to take care of.

      Creative needs to remember that they are selling the hardware. If the hardware doesn't work with what people have, then people won't buy the hardware. Shutting this developer down will lose them money, because people with Vista won't be able to use Creative cards in their computers—instead of buying them and using the third-party drivers, they just won't buy the cards.
    • RedHerringHack, on 03/29/2008, -0/+12Your example is flawed. They have paid for the product ( software and hardware ) and it isn't working. How much money would you pay a company ( geek squad ) to fix your computer audio if it was broken? It is the very same thing, except you HAVE to pay the geek squad bill, and donations are only asked for, not demanded. Creative is an EVIL company.
    • colincornaby, on 03/29/2008, -3/+2I don't think Apple has any problem with you modifying portions of OS X and redistributing those portions you have modified. In fact, most of the base system, including the drivers, are open source. Helping users violate the license... that's another thing.
    • dumpyhumpy, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4Horrible example.... but along those lines, that's one of the reasons I love ubuntu.
    • Ouze, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1You fanboys need to get Steve Job's nuts off your chin for a second, wipe off the magic pixie dust facial, and be realistic. Apple would send him a C&D, just like they did to the third grader who sent Steve Jobs a letter: http://vacelts.newsvine.com/_news/2007/10/30/10603 ...
  • Chaoticfist, on 03/29/2008, -1/+42Some one should get together all the drivers this dude has made, and release them on the pirate bay. If someone does this, i will seed for at least a week or two. Come on people post those torrents!!!!!!!!!!!
    • PHiZ187, on 03/29/2008, -0/+12From a previous comment:
      http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/38375297/
    • Nillerus, on 03/30/2008, -11/+2I emphathise with your sentiment. Pirate Bay FTW. Yet you force me to digg you down. 10 exclamation marks? A sure sign of mental decay.
      • Chaoticfist, on 03/30/2008, -1/+10I digg you down because you clearly have no life. Your bitching about the amount of exclamation marks i used. The fact that you bothered counting them and then posting about it, shows u have no life.
        • Skye16, on 03/30/2008, -2/+3I, too, have no life, yet I am proud of it. So you can use that come back all you'd like after reading this: it doesn't take too much effort to put in the y and the o when you say "you". Try it. Really. It won't hurt, I promise.

          Then you'll start sounding like an intelligent human being. As far as the exclamations go, remember: it's one or none! ( http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/11/03 )
        • jjustice, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1BTW, who killed penny-arcade.com today? Is it just my firewall?
      • Zera, on 03/30/2008, -1/+1SHUT THE HELL UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111@@##@!@1
    • jjmckay, on 03/30/2008, -8/+1I want to remind you that conspiracy to commit crime is not something you want on your record.... I hope that doesn't happen and that you can help us Audigy customers as you intend.
  • brad77, on 03/29/2008, -1/+121Unbelievable. I own an Audigy card, and just recently had to deal with this crap to upgrade to Vista SP1. Here's the text of a message I posted on the forum:

    I've been a long time Creative user, and I'm afraid that you've lost me with this one. I have used Soundblaster cards since the 8-bit Soundblaster Pro. Since then I've owned the Soundblaster 16, AWE 32, and a couple cards in the Audigy series. For over 15 years, I've used Creative's cards almost exclusively (aside from a brief stint with the Pro Audio Spectrum 16).

    When Vista SP1 was released last week, I didn't see it in Windows Update because the latest driver available for my Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro was not compatible with the update. This driver hasn't been updated since March 2007, and didn't work all that well to boot. Analog 5.1 surround was sketchy, and the sub channel didn't even work.

    Daniel_K came to the rescue in my situation. I needed to uninstall my drivers to upgrade to SP1, then install his driver package get my card working again. The installation went very smoothly, and my card is working better than it ever has on Vista. There are some quirks, but all surround channels are working as they should, and sound quality seems to be improved over the previous drivers (although this could easily be attributed to the placebo effect).

    The last thing that you should be doing is going after Daniel_K. If anything, you should hire the guy to teach their driver team a thing or two.

    Sadly, this is not likely a technical issue, but a marketing one. You seem to have made a deliberate decision to leave Audigy users in the cold in an effort to get us to upgrade to your new X-Fi series. Problem is, it doesn't seem to be working. You know full well that your forum here has post after post lamenting your substandard driver support with promises to avoid your cards in the future.

    Your strategy may work with casual customers with a sub-$50 card, but not for others who have invested over $200 for a high-end Audigy card with a breakout box. Those people, like me, are still looking for return on their investment, and will be the first to walk away from you when they get snubbed.

    Hopefully this is a misunderstanding, and you will work out a deal with Daniel_K. If this doesn't happen, you stand to lose some of your most loyal customers. Given your track record so far, the outlook doesn't look good.

    Please. Step up and do the right thing here. Support your customers, and the rest will follow.
    • RedHerringHack, on 03/29/2008, -1/+12Wise up, you are being raped by a company you still consider to be your friend. What does someone have to do to make you stop being their friend? I think they are showing their hand here, and if you are smart, you will pay attention, and drop them like a hot rock.
      • brad77, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Quit undermining my outrage, Hack. ;)

        Although I've been a long time loyal customer, I never considered Creative my friend. That would be a little naive, don't you think? "Friend" or not, I felt the need to call them out.

        Screwing loyal users to prop up your sagging revenues is not the way to succeed. I think that the above "kiss off" pretty much covers it.
    • willynilly, on 03/29/2008, -0/+10I think his post was fine good-bye to these jagoffs.
  • styckx, on 03/29/2008, -2/+23Creative practices the one rule in a business that will kill it faster then it was started

    Creative: Over promise, and under deliver!
    • gplpark92, on 03/29/2008, -2/+1Introducing the all-new Creative ZEN Vision M+ (with speaker)?
    • Ouze, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1They have been doing that for 15 years, and are still going strong.
  • styckx, on 03/29/2008, -4/+30The backlash over this is of epic proportions. That forum is full of T3H W|N! Now if only people would start burning their Soundcards on youtube so I can laugh at people burning high priced electronics
  • SmellyFingers, on 03/29/2008, -31/+6I read that book the other day and found that Jesus was more or less an *****.
    • poidh, on 03/29/2008, -0/+12You certainly know how to break the monotony of a tech discussion.
  • identitymatrix, on 03/29/2008, -1/+57I haven't heard of Daniel_K before as I don't use Vista, but from the post on the forum it sounds like he is a true hacker accomplishing more than every employee working at Creative can do. What Creative is doing is the epitome of shooting themselves in the foot, all in the name of greed.
  • gamerzworld, on 03/29/2008, -18/+4176 diggs and no front page? Come on Digg!
  • bluegem, on 03/29/2008, -8/+122Creative died when motherboards came out with onboard sound.
    • baalzebub, on 03/29/2008, -0/+31yup, and instead of causing a bachlash by threatening the guy with the modded drivers they should have offered him a job with good pay building drivers for creative sound cards, then the consumer wins, the guy with the modified driver gets a good paying job, and creative keeps a good reputation, too bad creative is run by idiots that do not think that way...
      • monkeyvoodoo, on 03/29/2008, -2/+7Welcome to America. This is pretty standard in the business world.
      • AussieFox, on 03/30/2008, -0/+4Hell, they didn't even need to do THAT

        Just ignore him, he was doing their job for them! With no cost to them!
    • willynilly, on 03/30/2008, -0/+8Creative had a terminal malaise from way back. Why else would you build a hard-drive-based MP3 player shaped like a DISC PLAYER? A round, unwieldy, music player disguised as a Discman. WTF?
    • Theli, on 03/30/2008, -2/+3I much more prefer my Creative sound card over my on board sound, so I would personally miss dedicated sound cards if they disappeared. They should license their X-Fi technology to Asus.
    • my10cent, on 03/30/2008, -9/+3Yeah if you are DEAF they did *lol* onboard sound blows dude!
      • theshizzler, on 03/30/2008, -1/+7maybe you need to get a better board
      • SaxxonPike, on 03/30/2008, -0/+4For those of us working a bit more professionally, onboard doesn't cut it. Neither does my home rig's X-Fi... Also signal isolation is very important when working with audio, so it's not the greatest idea to rely on onboard sound.
    • Kornstalx, on 03/30/2008, -1/+6I have a Gigaworks 7.1 surround speaker setup, and for over a year I used my onboard RealTek sound.
      I thought they sounded great. Then I bought a crappy Audigy2 Platinum for cheap, and those speakers came alive.
      The difference was unbelievable.

      Even the best onboard sound these days is sub-par compared to a dedicated (Creative, or otherwise) sound card.
      Trust me.
    • BrainRecall, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3Motherboards are inherently not well suited for analog audio. There are so many wires running at different frequencies on a motherboard, and they all like to dump their own bit of static into the mix. (All-digital speakers don't have to worry about that, but, then again, instead of a few high-quality digital-to-analog converters on the sound card, now you got dubious-quality ones in the speakers.)
    • jjmckay, on 03/30/2008, -0/+5Most people use on board sound but also a great many people want a sound card for the benefits. I disagree with your statement. I've been using sound cards sin 1992 (all Creative brand, too). Not sure what to buy now as Creative is not supporting their products as I want.
    • bossm4n, on 03/30/2008, -0/+6As many problems as Creative has, Realtek AC 97 onboard sound is so buggy it might work half the time. In fact, I've had so many problems with builds regarding onboard sound in the last few years, anytime I build a new rig, I automatically buy an audio card.
  • al11588, on 03/29/2008, -15/+1Digg this story to get on Diggnation. o yea microsoft-FTW
  • chaoticz, on 03/29/2008, -7/+80Here is an idea, dont buy creative sound cards. The sound card that came with my motherboard works just fine.
    • Shirleycakes, on 03/29/2008, -1/+16Why aren't you dugg way the ***** up? You're still showing support to Daniel K by NOT buying the products of oppressive software companies, and at the same time making a decent point about onboard sound. My Intel motherboard came with 7.1 surround, WAY more than I was expecting. No driver issues ever.
    • Bulletbillx, on 03/30/2008, -0/+12There are also other non-integrated soundcard companies such as
      ASUS
      M-Audio
      E-MU
      Turtle Beach/Voyetra
      SIIG, Inc
      Alpha and Omega Computer
      Auzentech
      BGears
      Diamond
      GWC Technology Inc.
      HT Omega
      PPA International
      RAZER
      Sabrent
      STARTECH
      Syba
      Zalman Tech Co., Ltd
    • BlackKnight6, on 03/30/2008, -0/+7You don't seem to know the circumstances chaoticz. The Audigy series was out long before Vista was out and are great cards. The problem is they have very limited functionality in Vista. daniel_k was able to get nearly all of the Audigy apps back and working in Vista, something I have been waiting for over a year for. The last driver update for Audigy 2 cards was March 16th 2007!!! X-Fi has had SEVERAL releases, including THIS march. The problem is we have lost support on sound cards we have already owned, not that we went out and bought knowing "Vista issues". Plus, things like my old EAX games lack the audio effects if I use my onboard sound. Not only that, I prefer a small audio card of 50-100 bucks to take the audio load and not the CPU as with most onboard sound.
  • justinkimball, on 03/29/2008, -0/+18I've experienced this garbage firsthand, with my creative card in my media box. Unfortunately I didn't know about these alternative drivers, and just resorted to onboard sound.

    After this news, I'm not going to be buying any creative products again. What horrible PR.
  • RedHerringHack, on 03/29/2008, -4/+23This isn't about creative's inability to fix the problem, this is about corporate greed and forcing a new purchase. As long as you are purchasing a new product, don't make it a creative product. Beyond the douche-baggery, the underlying issue is that their products are slow, noisy, overpriced, undercompatible, and non-supported, and most computer builders have known this for a decade. I urge you all to wise up and find an alternative. Creative must be punished and taught that the consumer runs the show, not them. F. Y. ( I will be seeding the actual working drivers, even though my house lacks the stench of the creative presence.)
    • spankr, on 03/29/2008, -2/+2"I urge you all to wise up and find an alternative." ? We're the problem?
  • gfxlonghorn, on 03/29/2008, -6/+6They have already re-posted the thread, and allowed him to keep on giving support in the form of a Audigy pack, but all they have done so far is just removed the donations link from the thread. I think they should allow him to accept donations, but at least they fixing it.
    • grimward, on 03/30/2008, -1/+4too little, too late, the damage is already done, no amount of spindoctoring can cure this. The only thing I could imagine that would fix this *somewhat* would be to give this guy his own dev team and a hefty salary and to publically announce this to everyone, with him declaring how ***** much cash he makes each month.
  • seraphisset, on 03/29/2008, -0/+10Ha, I had given up on using my Creative card with Vista.

    Time to find these drivers for myself!
  • lacreme, on 03/29/2008, -3/+37***** CREATIVE
    • askewed, on 03/29/2008, -0/+7I'm so glad I searched for that string before I embarrassed myself ;o)
    • celkin, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3AND THE RIAA TOO!!!

      What? We must always be reminded...
  • Maddoktor2, on 03/29/2008, -2/+176Here's the drivers:
    http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/38375297/Creati ...
    ***** you, Creative.
    • extrasalty, on 03/29/2008, -0/+10I feel so much better about their IP now.
    • spankr, on 03/29/2008, -0/+12Right on! I don't have my Audigy installed anymore, but I'll seed this for months...
    • scy1192, on 03/30/2008, -0/+6seeding, even though I don't even have a Creative card.
    • pentak, on 03/30/2008, -0/+4seeding, and I don't even use Windows
  • digitallysick, on 03/29/2008, -0/+27Dear creative, personally i think your products suck so i don't use them. But, people cant use your ***** in vista, and even made a home made driver to get it to work because you guys are so ***** sorry. Then, you want to stop the guy that made it? please, keep up the good work destroying your business model
    • bingo000, on 03/29/2008, -0/+3Personally I've ditched their sorry asses since they started making ***** cd-rom drives back in 1995.
    • SolidSnak, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2***** you, Creative.
  • adml_shake, on 03/29/2008, -0/+20Wow, just wow. The best part is the first part of that letter where they try to act like they are all cool with it and stuff before they let the other shoe fall. Creative just got onto my ***** list. I was planning on one of their cards for the PC I'm currently building, but they can go ***** themselves if thats the attitude they are going to take.
  • binorgog, on 08/07/2008, -0/+48I NEVER rant about tech stuff, but this issue hits close to home. For years I have purchased creative sound cards, sound blaster, etc. There were a great company with a good product. When XP was released they were a bit late to the party with drivers, but they did come through. During the beta of Vista they had adequate drivers, but no functionality that my on-board sound did have. Then when they released vista my 400.00 Fatality card did nothing more than take up space and crackle. I ended up buying a pair of 499.00 bose USB speakers which by pass the card all together. The fact that this guy took time out of his own life to HELP people like me should make him a hero to creative. Now creative has made him a hero to everyone and they are the villians. Shame on you Creative, shame.
  • spankr, on 03/29/2008, -0/+8I have an audigy sitting on my f-ing shelf gathering dust because it's a POS - popping and static in many games - Creative sucks donkeys.
  • br0pbr0p, on 03/29/2008, -0/+16Clearly lawyers aren't very good with public relations.
  • an0nymous, on 03/29/2008, -0/+29This is shameful. IP trolls,
    You should have served the needs of your customers instead. Perhaps your replacements will.
    • willynilly, on 03/30/2008, -0/+7Not only that: They're a HARDWARE company. This guy is hacking DRIVERS for said hardware, drivers that they don't sell. So Creative should STFU.
  • JerodSlay, on 03/29/2008, -0/+17I've used Creative cards since I started. I'll never buy another Creative product again.
    Besides, when are they going to roll out something newer than "Xfi" I mean give me a break!

    • sephiroth965, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2Well Creative also makes the E-mu series of cards. They aren't as well known, but the sound quality destroys any of the products they release under the creative name.
  • jackbauer007, on 03/29/2008, -0/+5i just installed an update for my creative sound card and now my creative audio console doesn't work...daniel k are you still out there.. p.s. ***** you, creative
  • bincoder, on 03/29/2008, -0/+17Remember back in the olden days, when a corporation knew how to run a business? Creative should take full advantage and hire this guy at a decent salary, not moan and bitch about his talents affecting their power trip. Wouldn't you get more sales if your product covered every OS known to man? Wouldn't increased sales equal increased profit? Isn't profit the name of the game? You could be replaced by some obscure company in China, it's been known to happen before. Get creative, Creative.
  • BriscoeJr, on 03/29/2008, -1/+46Why don't they just hire the guy?
    • styckx, on 03/29/2008, -1/+45Because, Creative has PURPOSELY (And has admitted) they DON"T want these soundcards to work on Vista. They are purposely crippled in order to make people upgrade and buy more expensive versions of a "Vista Ready" product. This guy said "Hey look it does work and here are the drivers for you do it with".
    • ne0shell, on 03/30/2008, -0/+2whats ***** is the "vista ready" product is still crippled and does not fully work without another hack. Try hooking up an X-FI card on Vista using external optical or spd/if and see if dolby digital signals decode using the stock drivers. Guess what? They don't and the advertising on the package states DTS and Dolby Digital as supported.
  • extrasalty, on 03/29/2008, -1/+15Digg the story, tell your friends about it so they can digg it too. Show that ignorant pencil pusher ***** for brains( poshaughnessy@creativelabs.com) the Digg effect. Enough is enough.
    • haterofps3, on 03/30/2008, -1/+2The last thing I wanted to do when I upgraded to Vista was deal with drivers, between Vista being bloated and lacking drivers I am really soured on both Microsoft and Creative.
      • TheGeneral69, on 03/30/2008, -0/+6comment dugg for making me try to check the checkbox.
  • PHiZ187, on 03/29/2008, -0/+14You know, I didn't think that I had any creative products because I was just thinking about soundcards and PC peripherals. But then I realized that my last TWO MP3 players were Creative (I hate the ipod cult, and dislike itunes). Well, I won't be evangalizing their products anymore, and when it comes time to upgrade to a new MP3 player, I won't feel any Creative loyalty.
    http://www.creative.com/products/mp3/
    • sephiroth965, on 03/30/2008, -0/+3The drivers for their mp3 players are ***** too.
    • FogDogg, on 03/30/2008, -0/+1Digg me down, but check out the Zune for your next player.. Suprisingly good quality from the hardware AND software.
  • Murphious, on 03/29/2008, -0/+25I really hope this blows up in creatives face in a huge way..
  • EmailAddress, on 03/29/2008, -13/+6LOL!!

    "I don't even have a sound card and I want the drivers!

    LINKS PLZ!1
    "
  • Jfox386, on 03/29/2008, -9/+2Just when things are going good for creative.... /sigh
    • styckx, on 03/29/2008, -0/+4Things haven't been going good for them since Vista RC1
  • Comp1demon, on 03/29/2008, -2/+57Taking