What is Digg?120 Comments
- oldsk00l, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Not just games though, nVidia makes money off this in the pro-workstation market. You know, folks who run renderfarms. Disney and WETA come to mind, as they are heavy linux users, running nVidia hardware to produce those renders. NASA, ILM, Dreamworks, also to name just a few.
These folks buy Quadros too, so they're ponying up a good grand a piece for these cards, and they buy farms at a time.
This is serious revenue that ATI is missing out on, it's an entire market. - drn666, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4'Slammed'... interesting choice of words.
In order news, drn666 'slammed' digg for sensationalizing article titles.
So there... another nobody slammed something. I'll post the article and you guys can Digg it.
As for folks who run renderfarms needing driver support for Linux - this isn't really true. The Linux renderfarms people are building don't even have video cards - they're just raw compute power networked together. The frames are then re-assembled and displayed on another machine - probably a Mac (though obviously it could be anything).
As for ATI missing out on a market - I doubt they care. They control something like 70% of the notebook market (where they get paid by the notebook maker, not the consumer) and very, very few of their customers use Linux on the desktop. I realise that it sucks that they don't care about Linux, but quit whining about it and just buy something else. - shakin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I'm another user who will be switching to Nvidia for my next card due to ATI's crappy Linux driver support. I've had my 9800 Pro for three years and I've told many people to buy Nvidia when they've asked me.
If ATI doesn't want my business because I use Linux then they will also lose the business of anyone who asks for my recommendation. That's at least ten lost sales for ATI in the past couple of years.
I've also noticed that ATI's Windows drivers are sub-par. Too many crashes and I've twice upgraded to newer drivers in Windows only to find that game performance (HL2, CS:S) is much worse than with the older drivers. Maybe ATI isn't ignoring the Linux market, they're just too incompetent to write good drivers for any platform. - Stevey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If ATI felt that their profits were suffering because they did not support the Linux platform sufficiently, then i'm sure they would do something about it. However, they clearly do not care and are satisfied with the revenue they get from their Windows support.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5it's not so much a problem when your shopping for a desktop, but when your looking around for a laptop, it can be quite annoying when you see something you like but it's ruined because it has an ATI card... the thing is they're good cards... just the company doesn't want to support us geeks, the very people the rest of the world get's opinions and tech support from... ugh
- oldsk00l, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Oh yes, I will digg this one for sure. ATI's history of supporting their hardware in Linux is a terrible tragedy. It also demonstrates ATI's utter idiocy when it comes to that market. "Oh it's only %3 of the market, so we devote %3 of our resources".
nVidia on the other hand says it's a quarter of their workstation revenue, I guess THAT 5 billion dollar a year market isn't worth grabbing a tiny bit of to ATI. Idiots. - eclectro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2For all those wanting to jump ship and go to Matrox, don't. When xorg 6.9 came out Matrox drivers broke and they haven't fixed them, i.e. no dual-head.
I'm pulling my matrox cards this week and getting nvidia.
And fo all those saying "write your own driver", it is quite a headache even if you have all the technical specs (which nobody does).
Just a FYI - jbus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Yeah, what else is new...
If you are planning on on running Linux or dual booting, stay the heck away from ATI until they get a clue.
The only reason I haven't scrapped my 9800pro is because it has OK performance with the proprietary drivers and for now works well with XGL, but it would work MUCH, MUCH better if ATI would put some effort into their Linux drivers the way nvidia is doing.
Gaming on Linux could actually be just as good or even better than on Windows if companies like ATI would stop sabotaging progress in this area just to score points with Microsoft. - gabbagabbahey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If it was really important for him to have linux support, why did he go with a card that didn't have it?
He has to take some responsibility for this. - karamba_kid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"imagine where Linux could go if the community lost the "everything must be FREE" hardon. Perfect driver support across the board, etc."
Yeah if we lost that than it could head in the same direction Microsoft is headed in, DRM hell. Companies like Matrox Graphics open sourced their video drivers why can't all the hardware manufactures do the same? I did buy the hardware I should be able to use it how I choose. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3This is true. ATI has sucked in the past, still sucks today and will suck in the future. Their Linux drivers are HORRIBLE. It makes baby Jesus want to cry... :-/ So, if you're planning on using Linux, go with nVidia.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1What I wouldn't give to have 3Dfx back in the market.. *sigh*
- Anchoret, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1> There is no money in linux so why waste your time.
I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
Reality is largely about money. Linux is largely about no money.
To the extent Linux is profitable, it gets developed (as in the billion -- with a "B" -- that IBM spent on developing Linux mainly for embedded industrial systems with proprietary code). When it's uneconomic, it doesn't get developed.
I don't hate Linux, but I do hate Linux cultists -- with their magical thinking substituting for common sense, their breathtaking sanctimony, whining sense of entitlement, lack of maturity and ignorance of basic economics. They're utterly despicable. - isolationism, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3This is why I use Matrox instead of ATI. I like supporting the Canadian hardware industry as I think we make some really great, competitive hardware -- when you compare Matrox's driver policy for Linux compared to -- well, just about any other vendor, the choice seems clear. Does Matrox do the 3D? Well, no -- but thankfully I don't do any 3D work these days.
I am a little worried about all these new Linux desktop extensions based on OpenGL, though, and wonder whether it isn't going to drive a stake through the heart of cards that specialise in 2D/framebuffer rendering except for special/embedded applications (such as HTPCs). - rileyjt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think the truth is that these hardware people don't actually want another OS to succeed because it would increase their development costs while providing them with little extra revenue. Gaming is what will drive the 3D market and I know I would use Linux if I could play all the latest games on it, but I don't see it happening any time soon. There is just not any money to be made by fragmenting the PC gaming market when the gaming companies already have a platform that works well for them.
- kolop1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1 ATI slammed? That's a bit dramatic. ATI does not want to waste its time with Linux. It is barley 3% of the market share.
- leszek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1they dont understand they can gain market-share in windows users by writing good drivers for linux.
i am the "computer guy" of my family. I use linux but 90% of my family use windows. I give them advice for buying computer stuff and help them installing.
moral of story:
1 linux user happy makes 10 nvidia cards - mentor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well, yes. That's not really a meaningful benchmark though. GLX gears ain't exactly intensive on the features of the card.
- loker269, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.
Reality is largely about money. Linux is largely about no money.
To the extent Linux is profitable, it gets developed (as in the billion -- with a "B" -- that IBM spent on developing Linux mainly for embedded industrial systems with proprietary code). When it's uneconomic, it doesn't get developed.
I don't hate Linux, but I do hate Linux cultists -- with their magical thinking substituting for common sense, their breathtaking sanctimony, whining sense of entitlement, lack of maturity and ignorance of basic economics. They're utterly despicable."
I completely agree with that!
also to those saying ATI's windows drivers are horrible...have you even compared them to nvidia? every other week I needed a software update with nvidia or else one of my new games were completely *****....with ATI I have never had that problem.....not saying nvidia is bad I have no real bias torward either company but come on stop whining....vote with your dollars and if you make a big enough impact (which I doubt since only a handful of people are linux users) they will change..... - mentor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1How about they release some hardware interface specs, so we can support the card in any Operating System, Kernel, or other software that we want? Linux support is nice if well it actually works, but kinda sucks if you're using BSD or otherwise
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Even without the market share, they are losing serious geek points. Who determines what stuff the corporation runs on? the geeks. We control a lot more than .3%.
- drbroccoli, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Linux has .29 % Market Share. ATI is not missing serious revenue"
Ahem. 3%. Besides. They really should support their damn products. My geforce 2 out performs my friends 128 megabyte ATI whatever, even with drivers installed and configured. (On linux.) - chrishurley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Why is this news?
"Some guy bitches about lack of linux support". Who cares?
How stupid is it to buy hardware based on what it might someday do (i.e. support Linux) - Outdoor83, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ATIs are so bad just in contrast to NVIDIA: NVIDIA drivers are incredible, work out of the box, and have a very reasonable install system. It also has a great accompanying troubleshooting guide which allowed me to fix a bug in one of my NVIDIA installs. A company that's that helpful to computer guys gets my nod: it's NVIDIA forever for me.
- Anchoret, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"I thought the great thing about Linux (and OpenSource) was that when something needed to be coded, optimized or configured a great up-swelling of thousands of talented programmers would spontaneously start working to address the need. And they could do it faster and better than a company could.
"So, WTF? Y'all just stitting around eating RedVines and drinking Fresca?"
Here, another common-sense, real-world reason why "free" desktop Linux development will never work. Write this down, Anchoret's Twenty-Third Law:
"Availability of unpaid help is is inversely proportional to competence."
You can get a lot on unmanageable, lazy incompetents to show up and argue with each other without much problem. You can get someone real for a few hours once in a while...but you can't get well-managed teams of highly-skilled, disciplined, pro-grade programmers to take on major development projects for years on end if you don't have some real money to pay them.
Period.
When someone decides to sink real money (billions, with a "B") into desktop Linux for some bizarre reason, it will develop. Until then, it will continue to be a sub-Beta OS clouded in this miasma of eccentric failure -- championed by neurotic, immature sub-geeks and crypto-political cranks. - mentor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Also, Freedom is rather the point of the while excercise, if you don't understand this, you are, of course, free to continue using the software, but don't presume to tell people what they are doing.
- msgyrd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0[quote]I thought the great thing about Linux (and OpenSource) was that when something needed to be coded, optimized or configured a great up-swelling of thousands of talented programmers would spontaneously start working to address the need. And they could do it faster and better than a company could. [/quote]
Yeah. That's the idea, but the problem is ATI won't release any info (chip and card specifications)about their latest cards so drivers can be written. It's kinda like trying to engineer a replacement carburator for a car, except you're not allowed to know what car, engine, or fuel type it's for. All you can do is take a big huff of the exhaust and work your way back from that.
For an example of your claims, look into the Airport Extreme Linux driver. The developers behind that reverse engineered thousands, if not millions, of lines of assembler in order to have wifi for Mac laptops. See, the problem with Macs was there was no nice wifi alternative, so the community created its own. The problem with ATI however, can be solved by selling your ATI products, writing nasty emails, denouncing their product to everyone you know, and switching to Matrox or NVidia.
Linux has a small consumer market share thats not viewed as profitable because linux isn't for gaming. The flawed logic here is assuming that this small marketshare doesn't hold any influence over the computer industry. Traditionally, geeks are who offer hardware recommendations, make purchasing decisions at companies, and have to put up with computer problems when they arise. Geeks may not make that many personal purchases, but they often influence more than their own purchasing power. Just look at this entire thread. How many people here have said "ATI rules, their drivers are top notch. I recommend them to everyone who will talk to me." None. There are people who are, at best, satisfied with ATI because it actually works for them, and then there are dozens who tell everyone ATI is actually a company that doesn't care about it's customers, with drivers that are subpar, doesn't care about other markets and is just out to get your buck.
In my own life, I have mixed feeling about ATI. I've had problems eons ago with their older cards. The driver *installer* required graphics settings my old card wouldn't support and windows didn't support natively when you just plugged in the card. I never understood why they did that. I've got a powerbook that has a mobile ATI that has never so much as hiccupped with a problem. My windows computer has a 9800pro in it and has never given me problems. I tried to install linux with accelerated graphics on that machine and it wasn't worth the trouble. ATI's efforts are shoddy at best. My linux computer has an older gforce4 in it and I got it running without a hitch. NVidia has decent support and offers good performance. I've purchased lots of ATI over the years and you know what? One of my many Linux installs broke me of ATI. I won't purchase or recommend them anymore. - Sintax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This doesnt surprise me, ATI has always had a lack of driver programmers with skills... the ones for windows are crap as well. don't expect linux ones to even be decent.
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ATI claims it's supported, and they're happy to take a few hundred dollars from you for their hardware.
That's all that matters. - Rajio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@ drn666 : Exactly!
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"ATI's purpose is to realize a profit on the hardware they develop and sell."
Yes, and sometimes they sell it for use on linux-based platforms for, you know, the same price as one that's going to be used on windows? Or have you worked out somehow that linux users are not *paying* for hardware they buy after reading about Linux support on ATi's website?
"There is no money in linux so why waste your time."
Why don't you ask ATi? They already sell Ati cards to linux-based OS users and make linux binary drivers for them to use. The issue is that some paying customers are installing their cards to find the support isn't very good, so it would be good if Ati improved it.
"You'd think someone in the linux community would write their own ATI driver and share it with the community."
There are already open source DRI drivers, with which ATi co-operate happily.
ATi prefers - understandably it may seem, to support more modern cards themselves than to open the spec fully, which is why it's up to them to provide the support paying customers have been offered. - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"This is actually good business sense for ATI. If you make a product that its ultimate use, is meant for GAMES and CAD -- both of which applications are either non-existant or HORRIBLE under Linux... why exactly would you spend money and resources writing drivers for that OS?
This isn't ATI's fault. It's Linux's fault for not getting the desktop ready for a consumer state yet. There are a lot of bright people in the Linux and Open Source camp, but they largely have an elitism about them that doesn't allow them to think in terms of doing things the way "Windows" did. Sometimes, taking a page from a competitor is a GOOD thing. When Linux is ready on the Desktop, easy to use and simple to navigate, no need for ./make and RPM dependencies galore -- then ATI should be ready to make drivers for it.
Until then though, I am not going to blame ATI because they aren't writing drivers for the .000001% of people who run Linux. The odds are even worse that they'd buy a graphics cards of any value for a Linux system when there's no software to make use of it."
Wow, I take it you've never been within 100 miles of a 3d graphics project, Maya workstation, or render farm then, because almost everything you just said about CAD was complete horsecrap, not to mention everything about linux, market share and Ati's attitude to linux.
Yeah, ATi are just catering for the huge contingent of 3D productivity users that have workstations and clusters to design and render their stuff *on windows XP, using ATi Radeons* - because there are loads of those.
Try walking into any such establishment. You will see unix on the workstation and unix doing the rendering.
I'll bet all the big shops wish they had your smarts - they could throw away all that SGI, Quadro, Mac and Linux kit and do all their stuff using direct3d with a nice soothing fisher-price GUI and a 200 dollar graphics card that screws up openGL. Why don't you phone Disney or SGI and tell them? You could time how long it takes them to stop laughing and hang up when you do too - that'd be fun.
0.00001% my arse - a cursory google would have stopped you making a fool of yourself.
Luckily ATi are smarter than you, and have been making FireGL drivers and premium products for Linux for ages. The whole issue, however, is not the (already well-recognised and lucrative) need for support of the linux market, but the fact that end-user apps like games on low end cards like radeons, need more realistic support now than ever before, because of the well-documented growth in desktop use of linux. That's something Ati really haven't been matching up to too brilliantly. - oldsk00l, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@everyone who keeps talking small marketshare percentages...read my above comment (as it looks like the reasonable people did) and let's talk workstations instead of gaming.
Where having a really great driver isn't just "nice" but imperative, and do your research...nVidia publically stated in a few places that in overall workstation revenue linux accounts for %25 of it.
Good business isn't looking at raw marketshare numbers, good business is looking at the dollars, and for nVidia it's obviously been a fruitful investment. - ztirffritz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I really think that the solution is an open-source hardware movement paired with open-source software. That would make the hardware work on Apple, Windows, Linux, Solaris, Irix, whatever. That would have to be profitable. Then the Linux devs would have a known architecture to work from. That would essentially be an open-source version of Apple I guess, but it would be better than the hit-or-miss thing that we've got going on now.
- zeebo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@crestfalling
Nvidia has no problem releasing up to date binary drivers for linux, and they haven't lost any trade secrets because of it. This is not a linux kernel or GPL related problem.
Right now ATI doesn't even have basic 2d support for their newest cards under linux. They won't even provide the bare minimum that I expect from even the lowest end video card. I would think that a vocal 5% of the market would be worth catering to even at that level, as its worth it for every other video card manufacturer around.
Whats even more strange is that they have no problem supporting MacOS which has about the same marketshare as Linux, making the marketshare argument make no sense. Its not as if they don't already try to court an influential niche market with their crossfire line of cards/motherboards which probably appeal to a similar small but vocal and tech savy, minority of users. They seem to fail to realize that the crossover between linux users, and buyers of new and high end video cards is rather large.
If I were wearing my tinfoil hat, I'd probably question whether this has anything to do with ATI's close relationship with Microsoft and the similarity of the chip in the xbox360 to ATI's current offerings. - akinder, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"Seems like if the OSS community was as good on actually developing things as it is at bellyaching, they wouldn't have much need for the latter."
Probably the best thing I've ever read on digg. Definitely summed up everything in one short sentence.
Want driver support? Stop bitching and put in a binary driver layer in the kernel so that companies aren't forced to open their secrets. For all the bitching and crying about "evil M$" and their bullying, the open source community does the same thing with their GPL and zealotry. Some people want to make money, they don't want to just give away everything for free. But, at the same time they'd like to help out with the Linux kernel. Imagine where Linux could go if the community lost the "everything must be FREE" hardon. Perfect driver support across the board, etc.
That will be the REAL year of Linux on the desktop. From the look of things, that'll be in about 50 years. - j0keR, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Who uses ATI? Nvidia has been better for some years now, and I don't see them losing that any time soon. Everybody I know who's a real gamer uses a high-end nvidia card.
- mattbert, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ATI certainly isn't the only hardware company that lacks decent Linux drivers. I messed around with Linux for awhile and was irritated at the lack of drivers for my Canon Pixma IP5000 printer and Creative webcam.
ATI is under no obligation to support Linux. It is a niche OS, and ATI has decided it is not worth the investment of time and money to fully support it. Considering that the vast majority of 3D-accelerated games only run on Windows, it seems like a reasonable decision. Why bitch about it? If you use Linux, buy an Nvidia card. If you use Windows, take your pick. - CarbideTipped, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ATI's drivers and software just sux, Windows and Linux. I vowed a long time ago to never buy ATI products.
NVidia has never let me down. - Slapo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0There's this little problem with market share of an operating system:
- it's small => companies aren't interested => users might not have all the drivers they need, therefore they don't use it or there might not be the program they need to do their work in for that OS, that means those people won't use that OS. Since this makes the group of people who practically can't run the system / can't run it well enough / as they need, etc., pretty big (close to e.g. 90% or more of the buyers and users), it makes the market share of the system small => companies aren't indetested in making stuff for it, ... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ATI's point of view:
"We just aren't going to make any real income from the Linux community, thus there is no real need to work hard for Linux compatibility."
Linux user point of view:
"ATI is a piece of *****, and will always be ***** 'till they understand they NEED the Linux community"
Real life:
ATI is more or less correct, why should they develop drivers for a user base that is less then 1% of their total sold hardware? But Linux should be looked into JUST because they are the up and coming new contender into the desktop race, they aren't there yet but they will be in a few years, and having drivers that work with no special hoops to jump thru would only help ATI" - jbus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I don't understand the hostility of people that have no vested interest in this situation. ATI supporting Linux is not going to hurt Windows users one bit. It's no skin off your ass, so don't worry about it.
In spite of all these comments about Linux being only "a handful" of users, a "niche" and so forth all of these people fail to take into consideration that dual booters as well as people that have attempted to try out Linux, but are prevented from doing so by NEEDLESS driver issues, make up a much bigger percentage.
Ultimately ATI shouldn't care what OS people run... They are a hardware company and they are setting themselves up to lose growing chunk of customers, especially now that Linux has emerging 3d accelerated desktop support.
At the rate of which the Linux desktop is evolving, I think it is safe to say that many more people will be interested at least trying, if not switching to Linux in the next 6-12 months. So why exactly should ATI continue to be Microsoft's little sheep dog, keeping all restless sheep from looking for greener pastures? - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0From a business perspective I don't blame ATI for ignoring Linux but I hope they realize that Linux users are often the hardcore techies who others look to for hardware advice. There is a price to pay for alienating Linux users.
- Anchoret, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0> Why is this news?
> "Some guy bitches about lack of linux support". Who cares?
The persons here who Digg anything with the word "Linux" in it, I assume.
I mean, haven't you noticed how many utterly content-free links like this get put up? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I have a 9600 card, and was thinking of formatting to go to linux, now I won't even try it, but then again, I never planned on gaming on linux LOLz
- brickbat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0My first card was an ATI about 10 years ago. Since then, only nvidia. 3 years ago, I started using linux. I had no problems with video BUT I had a Canon printer and a ***** no-name wifi card. Talk about no linux drivers. Don't get me started. ATI and Canon are never getting my money again.
- sundancekid503, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0What ever happened to the Linux "make it yourself" spirit?
ATI is a business and they're just watching their bottom line. - ripter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I used to love ATI, until I started playing around with Linux. Their lack of support and their unwillingness to support makes me stay away from ATI. I used to recommend them, not anymore!
- ericesque, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Digg for the simple fact that decent ATI drivers for Linux would be nice... then again, ATI doesn't even offer decent windows drivers for their mobility series. Generally they leave it up to the notebook manufacturer...which is worthless.
*sigh* I hate to switch to nVidia since their image quality is second rate, but with better drivers and better software support in general, I think it's time to cut my losses. -
Show 51 - 100 of 120 discussions
Browsing Digg on your phone just got easier with our enhancements to the 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is