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- maninblac1, on 10/11/2007, -3/+45It's an interesting view point.
In terms of R&D, ATI and Nvidia, are equal. They will perpetually and systematically outpace each other, with a few hiccups in between. AMD and Intel however are quite different. AMD can not compete with Intel in R&D, they don't have the money or the fab for it. Thus i will divulge a little play of how the CPU industry really played out and why ATI hiccuped this time around.
AMD has always had one goal since it entered the CPU industry, out market their competitor, meaning. That for every new release that Intel offered, AMD had a cheaper, more powerful processor to match it within a short period of time. And this worked, for a long long time. Because Intel was a sleeping giant, they became infatuated with NetBurst, it was their cash cow. Intel needed only to extent the pipeline and ramp up the frequency for garunteed incremental performance gains, all the mean while costing next to nothing to change fabrication and did so successfully for 5 years. Ignoring of course the switch from 479 to 775, and 130nm to 90nm. Regardless, intel milked that cow until it hit the end of the road with the P4EE 965, where they finally saw the end of their road, netburst was too hot, too slow, and too hard to extend. Not only this, but they couldn't keep ahead of AMD long enough and sell their processors cheap enough to hold their market share. Something had to be done....
Thus....AMD did what it should not have done, and awoke the sleeping giant (Intel).
So intel pulled a 1-2-3-4, not only would they create a new architecture, but they would drop the fab to 65nm. This presents a huge problem for AMD, 1, because AMD simply can not move to a smaller fab size fast enough. And 2, doesn't have the money to split between designing a new architecture and build new fabs. 3 to add insult to injury, intel slashes prices so low that AMD has to dig into it's pockets just to keep it's head above water. Of course 4, appropriately timing it right around the aquisition of ATI. Boom boom boom boom.
The restructuring of ATI to fall under AMD, the huge $600million Q4 06 loss that AMD posted, all contributed to a lackluster release of a "subpar" card series. Or "handicapped" if you want to blame it on the drivers.
Simply said, this is simply excellent timing on Nvidia and Intel's part. It's like eating something that sits very heavy, you gobble it all up, and until you can digest it, it's hard to move. I expect ATI to release a future card that will wow us. But, i'm deathly afraid of AMD slipping through the cracks. With the benches on peyrn looking like they are, and the speculation of how barcelona will perform with respect to that doesn't usher a sense of market security in the CPU industry. AMD stands to lose more than it ever has before if barcelona doesn't stack up.
Some may say that intel is excersizing anti-competitive tactics, and you know what, i whole-heartedly agree, it's down right monopolistic. But, if i was a judge, who had to decide whether to fine Intel or not, i wouldn't. It's one thing to under cut your competitor by selling cheap crap super cheap, it's another to offer a measurably superior product at a lower price. You can't call it anticompetitive if the product being sold is obviously better than the competition. - sishgupta, on 10/11/2007, -6/+44ATI/AMD needs to wakeup before they lose their entire market to nVidia and Intel.
This is pathetic.These companies used to be top level competitors but ATI/AMD just can't keep up.
I was a long time ATI/AMD fan but they have lost me with a long line of poor products. - Stiffler, on 10/11/2007, -10/+27Good article. ATI isn't a bad company by any means and they must have seen this coming before the 2900 release. I can only believe that they have yet to unlock the full performance of the card. Maybe it needs more driver tweaks or possibly a hardware refresh. Or possibly it's meant to shine in DX10 games. Oh well, I'm happy with my 8800GTS and I know people with the 2900s are happy with them as well. I suppose that's what really matters.
- Optimaximal, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10Episode 1 has been out for a year now.
- diversionmary, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10When I was younger I used to live and die by framerate and the constant upgrade cycle. It seems so alien now.
- ApeInago, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9OPENGL
- tolkan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10Not to mention ATi's losing battle with Linux support. They can't even keep up Linux drivers with their new hardware not to mention my X1400 which came out a year and a half ago...
What are the employees of this company doing during working hours?
P.S. Besides the aforementioned Fanboys, who's still buying ATi Cards? - directedition, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9I remember messing my pants my first time playing a 3D game with my ATI Rage Pro 4MB. Oh my God, this is SO awesome. Look at that! It has THREE ***** DIMENSIONS! AND TEXTURES TOO!
My 10gb drive was just fine. Then came Napster. Then came Scour. Nothing would ever be enough after that. - tehpwnerofn00bs, on 10/11/2007, -4/+11Its seems odd that only a year or two ago both the Intel/AMD and nVidia/ATI competitions were fairly close, but now it seems that Intel and nVidia's new releases are only competing against their own products. If AMD and ATI don't sort themselvs out quickly they're f!@#ed. Who else is looking forward to the Penryns and 9 series?
- maninblac1, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7@baddog
Every other review on the internet probably wasn't using the 158 series driver. There was an immense performance improvement between the 158 and 100 series drivers from Nvidia. If you go by the vista experience index, on my old 6800GTO i started with the 95 series driver and a gaming performance profile of 5.0.
When the 100 series driver was released, that index decreased to 3.4 (i ran the performance eval many many times to check). After the 158.18 beta driver was released, my performance index returned to 5.0. Nvidia has done quite alot since the 100 series to improve performance. - OBKenobi, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Meanwhile, Nvidia needs stop pretending that 8600s are DX10-class cards. Those cards are even more DOA than the ATI and should be replaced with something suitable for next-gen games, not a 7x00 card with DX10 "compatibility".
Or just drop prices on the damned 8800GTS, Nvidia! - Neem, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5I just picked up this card ( 8800 gts 320 )for a new rig Im building on the cheap ( ~600 card and all). And although I haven't fired it ( my PSU arrives tomorrow ) the more I read the more Im glad I went with nvidia, and I used to be hardcore ATI fan. This is as sad as those old Gforce FX series nvidia had a few years back.
- coredump0x01, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6Heh, They barely work on my Xpress 200M. Nvidia is a very wise choice.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Honestly on a few of the pics i seriously could not tell at all.....................
And FYI a few more added grass hedges is not going to make me favr one or the other .....Oblivion is a great world....you have tasks, and you fight , same goes with Battlefield...i'm not stopping to smell the rose or see if there is more grass in certain areas that other......
If you notice the ACTUAL CHARACTER MODEL and GAME PLAY DID NOT CHANGE !!! Meaning if you have either one of these cards it doesn't really matter at this point..............if you don't than of course the smaller will win price , i'm not one to spend 600 to 800 dollars on a graphics card anyway !! - moonboots, on 10/11/2007, -4/+8It's sad to see ATI getting raped.
- purple, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6My drive is 34gb...is that bad?
- foolfromhell, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4What OS?
heres a program
http://www.albertomilone.com/nvidia_scripts1.html
Works on debian systems. AWESOME for drivers. Fixed my 8800 issue right away. - darkzealot89, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4I still use my ATI Radeon 9800 Pro. It does fantastic! But Since ATI and AMD have begun a decline, it seems my next big card is going to be a Nvidia one.
- hosehead16, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4I'm also looking into an 8800 GTS as a possible final upgrade before I head off to college in the fall. However, I find it kind of funny and unnerving at the same time how superficial some of us have become about this. I mean, does it really matter that the ATi card scored a little bit lower? It still tore up those benchmarks and for the most part was completely playable. It may not be as good a deal, but that doesn't mean that fixed drivers and a price drop won't change that. Also, most people don't have the money to run out and buy the latest and greatest like this (myself included, I'm going to be lucky if I get an upgrade at all before I leave in the fall). Are we really getting to the point where that few FPS is so important that we have to discuss this topic to no end and feel the need to scream, "OWNED!!1!!1" every time a company gets one-upped by another? Most people have to look to the cheaper cards or to "hand me down" cards from previous generations to fill their needs, but why is there very little conversation regarding that? I don't recall seeing many people screaming, "OWNED!!1!!1" when the x1950 pro did really well, or when the 8600 GTS was shown to have such mediocre performance. But that's the price range and type of card most people are looking at, so shouldn't people be equally concerned about that as well? Oh, and my x850 is still very much alive and kicking.
- Brian48216, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5The whole thing seems to cycle.
Remember how nVidia was on top with GeForce 3? And Intel ruled the processor industry?
Then E3 came around and iD was demoing Doom3 on a Radeon 9700 and AMD became king of performance with Athlon...
And then now it comes full circle. nVidia is back with their 8800 series, and Intel has their Core2Duo
I can only hope the next few years brings more impressive achievements. - maninblac1, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5Really...
I seem to be able to remember that i can run Oblivion at 1680x1050 8xAA on a 8800GTS640 at playable frames in x64 vista, where is this huge performance loss? Oh, and have another 1680x1050 screen that i'm typing this comment in at the same time? The 158 driver series significantly closed the gap. Not that it was ever much more than 5% loss, except for a few games, *cough* World of Warcraft. - foolfromhell, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3"i generally run at 1380x786"
Mine jumps from 1280x1024 --> 1600x900 --> 1680x1050 when I try to change my res. How do I change to 1380x786? - maninblac1, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3@gizza
Because DWM.EXE is still running (desktop window manager) aero is still running, and on my computer, the oblivion window does have transparent borders. Because i have so much going on, i never actually play at 1680x1050 unless i really have nothing to do, i generally run at 1380x786 (i think that's it, it's the next step down widescreen), so i can't really say if DWM hugely effects 1680x1050. I know that benches show there is some loss though. - UNL1M1T3D, on 10/11/2007, -7/+10I agree to a point. While AMD/ATI aren't doing so hot now I would wait at least another 6 months to a year seeing how there merger wasn't really that long ago. I think given 6 months to a year we are going to see some crazy stuff coming down the tubes. Until then though I am sticking with Nvidia.
- UltraKill, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5@maninblac1
Great post. I never really looked at how things have been playing out.
In response to your last paragraph, Intel has already gotten in trouble for antitrust violations in Japan, and may in the future get in trouble in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amd#Litigation_with_Intel - ohnnyj, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I know exactly what you mean. I was one of the first to adopt SLI back in 04 and put down a sizable amount of money for my computer back then. Mostly in the name of making games faster. However, I ended up not using it very much and now it serves as nothing more than a file server that I turn on rarely.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@maninblac1
I agree with you. I have the 640, and I can play FEAR at full settings at 1680*1050, and I have the same FrameratePS as I did in XP. Simply beautiful. - Xeth, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@ TaxerDigger
RTFA. It had a link to the system specs which was exactly the same as what they used in the previous 2900XT review. - gthrank, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2ATI/AMD has crappy support for Linux drivers, so that makes them bad in my book.
- foolfromhell, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@mainblac
I have a question. When I run a fullscreen game on one screen and I try to use the other, it minimizes. What do you do?
Oh, and I can run oblivion at max @ 1680x1050 w/ 16x AA and HDR (Forced) on my 8800GTX
The new may17th drivers are AWESOME. - darkenin13, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Glad i own it! Its an amazing card for the price and new egg has a rebate :-)
- Stiffler, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@Dracker
Try re-reading the article... - maninblac1, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@foolfromhell
Try running it in 1680x1050 windowed.
You'll see a small performance hit because DWM.EXE is still running, but you should be able to interact with all your windows without your game minimizing. For me, Oblivion just "pauses" whenever i move to another program. - Gizza, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@foolfromhell (#7179040)
You have to play the game in windowed mode to do that. This will reduce performance quite significantly though.
I got one question though. Does Vista turn of Aero if you're playing a game in windowed mode? - YKKonMyZipper, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Title had me thinking the card was actually $120.. haha I was thinking about buying one right away. Still very impressive performance.
- Rickler, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Nvidias fall was when the geforce fx cards came out in 2003. The 9700 came out in 2002 when the geforce 4 was king. So it was the 9800 that took the crown in 2003.
- dn11, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2does anyone know if the HD 2600 or 2400 have been benchmarked by anyone yet? Those are the cards I'm more interested in - super low power consumption /w UVD and cheap
- pillfred, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I just did the same thing (C2D etc.)you shouldn't be disappointed as long as your CPU stands up.
- boester, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2@rickler:
The 9700 came out before the FX series, but it still beat the FX by a good margin. 9800 was not the card that took the crown, it was the 9700 and with a big margin.
Also it should be noted that the 9700 architecture is developed by ArtX, the people who made the hardware for Nintendo's old consoles. - maninblac1, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3@ultrakill
Yeah, marketing is always a fine line. I'd blame Dell, HP, etc just as much as intel for agreeing to the terms of intel's marketing. Since the suit was filed in 2005, they were obviously talking about the P4, which was neck and neck with AMD, so it's not as easy to say that intel had an obviously better product. - Alcorr, on 10/11/2007, -4/+5I had such high hopes for the 2900 xtx card. I intentionally put off buying an 8800gtx just so I could buy one because I was SURE the new flagship ati card would smash the 8800gtx. Turns out, they aren't even making a 8800gtx killer no xtx model flagship until at least 2008. Apparently the 2900xt is just something to compete with the gts...and obviously it doesn't even do that very well either. Disappointing both for the sake of amd/ati and competition.
Ati just lost one customer to nvidia, just picked up an 8800gtx, couldn't be happier. - daphatgrant, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1The last kick-ass v-card that came out of ATi was the 9800XT, all the rest have been ehh. Wake up ATi, nVidia did after their X series flops. And to be completely honest I am not really surprised by the results, but it is interesting to see the actual performance scores.
Thanks [H] for another great review :), I hope ATi sees this article, I used to love them but they need to get there asses in gear. - kwreid, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Wow, ATI and "Dead to me" are in a title on a recent post of mine.
http://blog.geeqs.net/archive/2007/07/21/ATI-You-Are-Dead-To-Me-_2D00_-Part-2.aspx
Basically, for the longest time I'd alternate between ATI and NVIDIA cards in my new custom built machines over the last 7-10 years. I've had a lot of experience with both cards as each would outpace the other in release after release. It was great.
However, more and more I realized that the customer experience with installing and maintaining things like driver support for video cards seems to be much more of a challenge for ATI. Their support department is a glorified knowledge base search engine... just much much slower. I've had enough. ATI is dead to me. As long as NVIDIA are around and still making cards just as good or better, I'll never purchase another ATI video device. - Lane, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1well i know what im getting for... well... i a selfish bastard so i know what im getting.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@Skye16
It was merely an example an example however that is a reality some versions/series/brands of Graphics cards that are in that very said price range hell 400 and 200 dollars is pushing it, 600 to 800 is just absurd pricing all together but still a reality.
My overall post just points out when push comes to shove ( if you never had a card period or desperate need of an upgrade ) any person would autmatically go for the less pricer card, even if it means a minimal performance hit, to the more xpensive.................................................................
( if it means more price just to show more shadows , grass etc )
Just in this scenario the lower priced card seems to be giving better potential from a graphics stand point , which is RARE...and not to question the company's testing but you could go onto many sites that do these tests and come up with different answers and Benchmarks with every mouse click.
Just so happens this site reports that the lesser card price is a better choice ..so take from it as you will. I personally know for a fact that Nvidia Cards are great however run very very hot !! To Where Ati even though they have legged these past 2 yrs aren't much further behind and their cards are very welled cooled. Remember 5 yrs ago Nvidia was eons behind ATI cards it was a sin.....................
Yet Ati is only a few leaps behind in time of producing newer cards not overall performance as they do get the cards out just not as fast as Nvidia as of the last few yrs they aren't as far back as Nvidia was t them yrs ago - warrior420, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1For something that took this long and got delayed this much, I'm very disappointed. Something thats this big, takes so much power, should be the card that Nvidia has to beat. But its not, Nvidia has had their cards out for over a half a year and this is all that ATI could come up with? Shame.... Ill say I'm not surprised. ATI has gone downhill since the 9800 Pro in my Opinion. Good thing ATI still has the Xbox 360 to get some revenue from, 'cause they are going to lose a lot with this card. We all know there will be a refresh, an "XTX!!", or a "2950" or something even more embarrassing a "XTXPE!" all to just get a slight edge on their mistake they brought out first. Only with a higher price tag and the same crap performance. ATI is dead to me...
- maninblac1, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@animejunkie101
Uh, let's look at those DX10 benchmarks, oh wait, none of the games are native DX10, the only DX10 game that's being built from scratch is Crysis, lost planet, call of jaurez and CoH are all ports from DX9, bad ports at that.
Oh, and last i checked, Nvidia beat the 2900XT in the LP DX10 benchmark, but then ATI beat them in the CoJ benchmark, guess who sponsered each of these tests, Nvidia on LP, and ATI on CoJ. Give me a break, we'll see the real quality of these cards when crysis is finally out.
Let's also not forget all the $$ you toss down the drain on the ATI card with your larger PSU and cooling and idle power requirements. - orph3us, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2im waiting for the 65 nm 2900 because I have a non nvidia motherboard with two pci x16 slots and I would like to go along the dual card upgrade path. Buy one card this year top of the line, one year later when prices are lower, buy another... I really dislike what Nvidia is doing with their sli motherboards, you have to have an nvidia motherboard to run sli with anything later than a 7900gtx (can run 7900 and under with hacked 85.96 drivers) .. Im hoping a 65 nm 2900 consumes much less power and runs a slight bit faster with more texture units as well :/.... I'm sick of replacing hardware, and since Nvidia won't allow me to run sli on my 975 asus p5w dh mobo, I'm gonna be going the crossfire route when the 65 nm 2900's are released... currently running a 7800 gt ... more than enough for now :P
- pismophreak, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Yep, me too. Got one about a month ago. Very happy with it!
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