What is Digg?82 Comments
- strangerzero, on 10/12/2007, -3/+71I think that most humans don't want to acknowledge consciousness in animals because they will feel guilty about exploiting them.
- sgreger1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+55Theres a newsflash. ANyone whos had an animal and built a relationship with it as it grew knows that even if they are dumb they are obviousely lucid and able to anylyze things even if ina way which seems primitive to humans.
- bitcloud, on 10/12/2007, -2/+48And i struggle to believe we're still grappling with the concept that *gasp* human's are animals... Yes pets have a consciousness. They aren't simply automata, despite what that notion might do for our egos..
- pairanoyd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+44I really want to say something smartassed here but I'll refrain.
I have two German Shepherds. They are so intelligent it's freaky.
For one thing, they KNOW what a mirror is, they understand that it's a reflection. One of them loves to sit and look at me through the mirror, in other words he faces the mirror and makes eye contact with me via the reflection. I can move my hand up from behind and make like I'm going to touch his ears. I can see his eyes tracking the reflection of my hand and then just as I get near his ear he'll turn and snap at my hand, not the reflection. (He doesn't bite, he "tags" me).. He enjoys this game.
He doesn't sit and look at himself in the mirror, he watches everything else through the mirror, he uses the mirror as a source of amusement, just like I used to do when I was a kid.
Another thing, the dogs have EMPATHY. They know when I am feeling bad and they try to cheer me up by offering to play ball.
When I'm mad and start cursing about something they put on an act, making "puppy eyes and waggy tails" to try to defuse my anger, they do it because they know it works and I calm down. How could you not?
When they want something they can tell me what they want through body language, whining, barking, ear positions, etc.. They are very expresssive and are very skilled at getting their message through to me. I can tell if they need to go out to pee or poop depending on they way they are acting.
They understand everything I tell them, they understand when I ask them if they want to go out, if they want to ride in the car, if they want to play, to go find the ball, and of course to do the typical obedience things like sit, lay, heel, etc.. They are Schutzhund trained which is the highest level of obedience and protection training you can give a dog. Ever seen a police or Military German Shepherd at work? That's my dogs.
And, they know the difference between right and wrong.
The male knows that chewing on his tail is a no-no. I can go outside for awhile and when I come in, he will either act normally or he will be acting guilty. When he's slinking around I instantly know he's chewed on his tail, I check and sure enough, he's done it so I fuss at him about it.
They are also spoiled. When they sit next to their water bowl and it has water in it, I know that they water has become warm and they want COLD water. They LOVE cheese. I can ask them "want some cheese?" and they go *****. I can take a Parmesan cheese shaker and FAKE like I'm putting cheese on their food and they just sit there and look at me. Once I really put cheese on their food they will then lick the cheese off the top then sit down by their bowl indicating they want more cheese. When I tell them no, several times, they decide they won't win the stand off and will finish their food.
If a stranger gives them a cookie or a treat they will set the food down on the floor and look up at me for approval. Once I tell them to go ahead and eat it they will but not until then. There's just so much more than there's not room to list it all. They are extremely intelligent, you would have to see it to believe it. It's like having small, bright children around. They kennel owners when I got them from, who have been breeding German Shepherds for 35 years tell me that a German Shepherd dog is approximately as intelligent as an 8 year old human child. I totally believe that.
Anyone that says animals aren't self aware is a FN idiot. They need to put their idiot books down and get a pet. But then on second thought, maybe not, I don't think they would make good pet owners. You have to treat your pet as your friend not as a friggin tree stump or a bag of rocks.
A walk through the zoo for an hour doesn't qualify as an education. - TheCount, on 10/12/2007, -1/+22I don't believe the question is whether animals "think" or not. It's easier to see this in large mammals that we've all come to know, like dogs, cats, dolphins, etc.
Things get a little more tricky when you start looking at things like fish, roaches, bees. Things that aren't all cute and furry.
There is also the question of being aware that you are aware. Does a dog think back to when he was a puppy and chuckle to himself about how stupid he was for being scared of something harmless? That's a more difficult question to answer. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+22"I believe all animals with consciousness should have basic animal rights. I also work at the zoo. Digg this if you think I should free all the animals."
I think you've had enough soy beer for today. - dj_sea2005, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22I dugg this story because of that one insightful comment.
- johnsto, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18The question is, do they know there are known knowns? There are things they know they know. Do they know there are known unknowns? That is to say do they know there are some things they do not know. But, do they also know about unknown unknowns - the ones they don't know they don't know?
If so, they'll make a terrific US Defence Secretary. - pairanoyd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15Feed him then.. Duh.
- pairanoyd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Oh yeah, I almost forgot.
My dogs dream. While they are sleeping you can see their eyes moving around, as in REM, sometimes their eyes are even open.
And while they are sleeping, they lay there and their legs and feet and moving, you can tell they are "running" they will woof and bark and make all sorts of funny noises, even wag their tails in their sleep.
They usually have these very active dreams after I've taken them to the kennel, which they LOVE to go to, they make a huge scene when I ask them if they want to go to the kennel, they will run out to the car and sit next to the door and wait for me to open the car door for them to get in.
They have a great time running around the huge lot and playing with the other dogs. And always, always, that night they will have vivid dreams, sometimes they get so excited in their dreams they make enough noise to wake me up. I'll look down at the foot of the bed and sure enough, they are "running" and barking in their sleep.
They are dreaming about the good time they had that day and replaying the event in their minds. And that my friends is a sure sign of conscious thought and intelligence. - Mattevil, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16reminds me of the far side where a scientist built a decoder for dogs and instead of bark! it said hey!
- goblindegook, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14"Thats why I'm not fixing my own car or making my own burger or getting rid of my own trash."
Yeah, when the plumber dropped by to unblock the toilet, I thought I was exploiting him too. That was until he handed me the bill. Joking aside, that's a terrible thing to say, dude: just because there are people willing to take on the jobs you refuse to do doesn't mean they're any less smart or worthy of respect. - mos6507, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I really think that the scientists who are the most vehement about downplaying animal intelligence have the least personal experience with them, or they have some kind of inecurity that puts blinders on them. I don't think it's fair to say that all the things we observe about animals that are humanlike can be attributed to our own biases. For instance, there have been debates about how "human' the neanderthals were. They had stone age technology clearly beyond the nearest apes, but it's hard for humans to comprehend another species being roughly equivalent to our own. We really have to look at the animal kingdom as more of a continuum than just us at the top and all other animals equally at the bottom.
I like to think of the more advanced animals as similar in mental capacity to very young children, or young children with adult coordination and survival skills. The brain of a human takes a while to develop. Before children are able to speak, all they can go on is instict. The difference is a child will continue to develop, whereas an animal can no longer progress beyond a certain point. That point varies from species to species and even between individual animals.
Since animals don't have the physiology required to speak, we think they are "dummer" than they probably are. Some of the most intelligent behavior exhibited by animals is when they communicate nonverbally through gestures. For instance, in my family we had a siamese cat who, in a strange reversal of Pavlov's dog, was smart enough to discover that by jumping onto the mantle and knocking stuff off he could get humans to let him out. This progressed to such an advanced state that he would merely paw at it, stop, and turn to see if he got a reaction. If you didn't move towards the door, he would move the object closer to the edge, and look for another reaction. The second you gave in and moved towards the door he'd realize he won and jump off the mantle. He had no real interest in knocking stuff off the mantle. It's one thing for an animal to do something obvious like hang around the front door or scratch at the screen, but to do something this indirect and manipulative shows some advanced thinking. Pets seem to be very good at anticipating things based on past patterns ala game theory: if a, then b. Sometimes exceptional animals can think beyond to if a then b then c. If they seem themselves to be too predictable, it may be because the life of a typical pet is pretty idyllic, and as long as things stay the same, they have no reason to deviate from their comfortable patterns, unlike humans who are constantly restless even in their success.
As for emotions, some emotions may seem largely absent from animals, but certainly animals feel affection, loneliness, physical pain. They also have dreams where you can clearly make out in their involuntary movements that they are playing through scenarios they are visualizing. I also think animals can fall into phychological problems that we may think are exclusive to humans. We had another cat that ballooned up to 23 pounds. I became convinced she had become addicted to food because she was mistreated by the other male cats in the household.
Most of the cats in our household seemed to have quite complex characters. This surely had something to do with how they were raised because I've also come across animals that seem far more vacant or feral. Humans are social creatures and a pet that is raised with a lot of attention from humans and no survival pressures is going to act more "human" since that's the only real influence they have. - LushusJackass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9As I was reading this article, I was actually very surprised that this is even a source for debate in this day and age. Like many have said here before me, if you've lived with an animal for any length of time, you already know that they just aren't hanging around for a free meal-ticket. (They may decide they like you more because of it, though!)
I find it repulsively arrogant of anyone to assume that animals are mentally and emotionally inferior in any way to humans. Granted, the overall knowledge capacity may vary, but the ability to learn, feel, problem-solve, and express themselves is no different. To even wonder if an animal has the ability to suffer seems utterly ignorant. If you've ever been to a zoo with less than adequate habitats, I'm sure you've seen the resulting behaviors. Circling in corners, obsessive head-swaying, and many other obvious symptoms of trauma and emotional distress.
I tend to think that the humans who believe animals aren't capable of these things are the ones that are the inferior life forms. I can't even begin to wrap my brain around such a warped perspective. - Pudwhack, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I think we(humans) are conceited about our thoughts. My dog is not a robot. It is a living creature. It does not have an OS. It has a brain. So why would people believe we are the only ones with consciousness? Conceit!
- tysonkad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8If you think about it, all the Science talk about what is happening inside the mind of an animal, saying that it's only doing things because it's programmed to, can be associated with humans. We are just a bit more complex in our thoughts, and have a highly developed way to communicate, some would argue that we can even read each others thoughts or emotions. We run on emotions that influence how we act on a daily basis. To say that an animal isn't conscious is crazy. They experience and remember emotions just as we do.
...sorry if I'm unclear, not the best writer.... - Yage2006, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8My dog is a German Shepperd as well :)
He understands gravity knows if he puts his ball on a hill it ll roll down then he waits for me to kick it then kicks it back at me. I don't see any genetic need for him to do that,
Hes just having fun and knows what hes doing. - pairanoyd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Mine too. My house is not level so he'll put the ball where it will roll under something. He'll sit there and watch it roll underneath furniture then sit bark at me to get it out for him. That's his way of getting me to play ball when I ignore him. The female is still a puppy so she's still developing her own unique and annoying habits carefully thought out in her little doggy cranium with the intent to inflict mental torture upon me. :)
She's not as skilled yet in social interaction as he is but she's coming along quickly. She's basically still a clumsy babe. - Hobo97, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11A space lot, "a lot".
- jonoxplor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I also have a dog, although not as big as yours (matlese *****) she is very smart and knows many words equal things for example "walk" she will run off and grab her lead,(we have to spell it when we talk about it but i think shes catching on to that aswell) just goes to show you that an animal with training can learn alot more than alot than people that dont have pets relise
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Yeah, you should see my dolphin fetch the stick.
- smokinjuan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5My dog (husky) is a scientist. I once watched her take the knot from a rawhide (that being the only part left) and place it in the water trough. She cocked her head while watching it expand as it took on water and she poked at it with her nose. At the completion of the experiment she turned to me and said, "so THAT'S why I feel like ***** after eating those things" and I said, "yeah, good girl Silver."
My other dog (dalmation) scared the hell out of me one morning when I woke to find her squatting over me like she was about to ***** on my face. I said, "Damnit Crickett, what the hell is wrong with you!?"
She replied, "Are you retarded? Can't you smell that? Let me the #!@$ OUT!"
In the spirit of "fair and balanced" here's Willow's (husky-shepherd) sillyness. One day while scratching her ear she became aware of the hind leg that was doing the scratching. She observed the foot and slowly brought it closer to get a better look. Then she became aware of her eyeball.
"YELP!"
The Three Stooges couldn't put on a better show. - twooranges, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I know what cats are thinking.... meow,meow,meow,meow I want chicken I want liver
Meow Mix Meow Mix Please Deliver. - Avengelist, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14I don't want to acknowledge consciousness in my cats, because sometimes they look at me like they want to eat me, and finding out that it may be what they really *are* thinking isn't something I need to know.
- goblindegook, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6(And I say I doubt it because I know for a fact that, as a species, we have no qualms about exploiting our fellow human beings. This isn't about guilt. If anything, it's about pride.)
- DubbedOver, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4My German Shepherd can also show that there are thoughts going through his head. I have seen him laying in bed next to me and suddently get up - go out to the living room and get his marrow bone to chew on.
He'll bring it back into the bedroom but I won't let him on the bed with it so he stands there deciding whether he wants to chew it on the floor or sleep next to me. He'll ussualy drop it by the side of the bed and go back to sleep.
I see a thought process there and I'm a skeptical person - he just seems to think about things when he is doing something else (like thinking about his bone). - vhold, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The one thing that makes me sure that cats can be fairly self-conscious is that I once had a cat that when it did anything clumsy, like misgauge a jump and scrub, would immediately look around to see if anybody saw it, and if you happened to be looking directly at it when it was looking around, would run and hide for awhile.
This only happened several times, but the head/eye movement and facial expression were so unmistakably "embarrassed" that it left quite an impression on me.
Perhaps there is just some other evolutionary reason for this behavior besides the animal imagining what you are thinking of it.. but it was very uncanny. So either it gives the cat human like attributes or it reveals that our notion of embarrassment is really a simplistic flight response to suddenly making ourselves seem vulnerable. - ZenMojo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'm tired of ***** who think like that. A disproportionate number of gifted/genius students (something like 20-25%) drop out of high school or don't graduate from college.
So remember, the next time you see someone waiting tables or taking out your trash, remember that there is a pretty decent chance that he is far smarter than you are, his priorities are just different.
EDIT: Who's smarter? The guy whose dad owns the company and exploits his engineers who each have 10 patents to their name or the engineers with the patents? It's dog-eat-dog and the clause makes the jaws. - Pharaoh777, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Consciousness and intelligence are two completely different things. Animals have intelligence - they do not have consciousness. So, while a dog may love a master that is kind and fear a master that is mean - the dog does not know that it is a dog. It does not have an idea of "self". In fact, humans do not even gain this ability until they are toddlers - around age 3.
- Yage2006, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8I know that my dog knows what he knows can remember allot understand allot and make conscious decisions. I even test him daily for fun, I though it was prov-en long ago that animals are conscious or does it just make meat eaters feel better to think they are not :)
- aflores3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@jonoxplor
You're dog WILL learn what L-E-A-D means. I had 2 Min Pins growing up, and they figured out what a T-R-E-A-T was... - Wade, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"Animals doesn't know what you are saying, they recognize the sound and connects it to what it gets."
Grammar aside, isn't that merely the fundamental key to the way humans learn?
"If animals where as smart as you pet freaks are they would have no problem learning our language and understand that no means no, and not a sound that have to be made every freaking' time they think they can get away with something."
By your logic, every person on Earth can speak English and is a mathematical genius.
Also, 'think they can get away with something' implies intelligence, where exactly are you going with this? You seem to be overestimating people's personal thoughts on the intelligence of other animals or underestimating people's personal thoughts on the intelligence of other humans. - Gruesome, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yep, I'm with you. I get migraines sometimes. When I'm holed up in bed with the shades drawn and my throw-up bowl next to me, one of my cats is stationed right next to me. He won't leave. He only gets up when I do. When I make a noise he'll start trying to groom me. I don't have all the answers when it comes to animal intelligence and cognition, but this cat of mine has an awesome sense of empathy for his human and I love him dearly.
- mstroeck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Just as practically anybody who has dealt with animals on a regular basis, I feel very certain that they are conscious. However, this entire debate and most of the "studies" and "experiments" miss the point:
You see, the problem is, we actually have absolutely NO IDEA what we are talking about. Defining and understanding consciousness remains the hardest problem mankind faces. You cannot measure what you do not even begin to understand. Any scientist who feels it's safe to say "chimps are not conscious" should be on his best way to several Nobel prizes and eternal fame. After all, he has solved the eternal mystery of how our experience (call it "the human condition", if you will) arises out of dead matter. Oh, he hasn't? Well, then what the ***** is he talking about?
As soon as any entity consistently displays signs of what might be consciousness, we should --if we were consistent with our own beliefs about compassion and justice, that is-- feel compelled give it the benefit of the doubt. We would not eat cows, we would not kill minks to clad us in their furs, we would not abuse primates to conduct medical experiments.
The problem is that we all take part in or at least tacitly facilitate these probably immoral goings-on: Many people's livelihoods depend on the killing of animals, and who doesn't like a good steak? I certainly do, just as I wear leather shoes and sometimes depend on medication that was tested on animals.
The ethical treatment of animals is one of the few really big moral problems that remain in the secular western world-view. (I am not talking about actual social reality --which is more than problematic-- I am talking about what most of us feel and believe should be true.) It is also one of the few things I feel completely helpless about. I eat, wear and kill animals, but I'm beginning to believe that I actually don't have a right to do so.
By the way, this also extends to the future of computing. The day a computer passes the Turing Test, this computer should have rights. Since we have no clue what consciousness is, who are we to say that it can't rest in silicon? Silicon is a form of matter, removed from silicon just as carbon is matter. Both of them are even in the same group of the periodic table where's the difference?
Can anybody explain why a system having integrated circuits at the lowest level, should somehow be less likely to harbour a self-aware intelligence than one based on neurons? At the moment, nobody can, at least not to my personal satisfaction. Of course this question is rather philosophical and probably won't have any implications until artificial intelligence makes some where big leaps.
On the other end of the spectrum, however, the questions don't get any easier: When I forget to feed my cat (and only then), he will sometimes "mark his territory" in rather inappropriate places and then be unavailable for a few hours. All that will get him, of course, is even less food and certainly not a lot of attention. It takes a lot of imagination to ascribe that behavior to anything but what we humans call spite... - pairanoyd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@ ClassicJBC
"What if your German Shepherds were horribly disfigured in an accident? Say they had brain damage, too. Would you disregard their well being because they are unattractive and no longer intelligent?
I'm not saying this as a criticism of you, of course, but I think most people really miss the connection between the empathy and compassion they feel toward cute pets and the hatred and desire to kill ugly, "stupid" things like insects.
If it can feel pain, then treat it like it feels pain."
Yes. Absolutely 100%. My dogs are my best friends in the world.
Last year we were forced against our will, at the point on a gun, to evacuate the area for hurricane Rita. I took my dog with me (just had the male then) and he and I slept in a horse trailer without electricity for three days. I had the option to leave him behind. That was NOT an option as far as I was concerned. Thousands of other people did leave their pets behind to DIE while they fled for safety. They thought nothing of leaving their pet behind to brave a category 5 hurricane while they hauled ass.
I took my dog with me and he and I stayed in a horse trailer then a garage for 10 days until we were allowed to return home, then we had to continue living in a garage for another three weeks after that while I repaired the damage to my home. What was good enough for him was good enough for me. There was no way in hell I was going to abandon him or leave him behind. Many pets that were left behind died in people's homes from lack of food and water. Not mine. Not ever. If they ever come around and try to tell me that I have to leave my dogs behind (for an evacuation) they better be prepared to shoot it out because the only way I'll leave them behind is if I'm in a body bag. I have plenty of guns and plenty of ammo and I WILL shoot it out with them if pushed.
My dogs mean the world to me and I will do what ever it takes to care for them. Nothing is too good for them. As it is now, I spend a great deal of my small and limited income on their care. They live inside in air conditioned comfort year round. I spoil them but it doesn't go to their head, they know who's the boss. They would give their lives to protect mine and I would do the same for them. They deserve it in return for their loyalty, love and respect. They look up to me to take care of them and to provide for their needs.
I have neighbors that have dogs that spend their entire life chained to a tree, rain and shine, hot and cold. And the owners NEVER spend any time with the dog other than 2 minutes to put some food and water then haul ass for 23 hours and 58 minutes. People like that PISS ME OFF..
They have no business having any animals. Neglect is just as much a form of abuse as physical abuse is. It's abuse and it should be illegal.
If you don't or won't take the effort to CARE about your pet, give it to someone that will..
That may sound soppy to someone that doesn't have pets but I don't give a *****. - JEmerson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Notice the warning light when they say "Some researchers" don't believe in animal conciousness. I would think one would be hard pressed to find a scientist who doesn't dispute evolution who'd claim that we're totally unique in brain function and that our mental abilities just appeared out of nowhere instead of evolving through transitional stages.
- thomasprebble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2My dog is thinking about eating me.
- tysonkad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Animals can definitely learn to read human emotions that's for sure. It's not what you say its how you say it. Animals can sense fear in people, and they most likely picked up on a few other ones. Especially dogs, if they know something is causing you to be scared, they will pick up on that right away and possibly get aggressive towards what they think is causing the fear. If you read up a bit about the owners of the German Shepherds there was at least one good example of the Dog reading the emotions of a Human.
- NOFXY, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Don't humans "simply" associate words to what they mean? If you tell a little kid, "want candy?" aren't they doing the same exact thing dogs do? they are associating words (or sounds) with what they mean. I think you're over simplifying a process that is much more advanced than you think.
Edit: Wade beat me to it - fyngyrz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"There is also the question of being aware that you are aware. Does a dog think back to when he was a puppy and chuckle to himself about how stupid he was for being scared of something harmless? That's a more difficult question to answer."
Actually, it isn't. How many times have you seen a dog or a cat dreaming? Large motions are limited, just as ours are when we dream, but you can see them running, lips snarling, etc. Clearly, this is imagination creating a scenario which they are working through. Dreams, in humans, are not hugely different from simple memory, and often can incorporate memories.
No one can know until we can read out what is going on in their minds, but the external evidence supports a strong ability to imagine a circumstance not present, and further, to insert themselves into it as actors. That's what dreams are. - vaxguru, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I took a philosophy unit last semester and we looked at the possibility of animal consciousness and other related topics. This article was a great and relevant read. Really makes you think. Hopefully more research brings about more answers.
- Vouksh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Agreed. When my old cat was hit by a car one night, I still loved him even though his jaw was smashed and his one leg was turned around. How could I *not* love him? Unfortunately it would have took around $500 to fix him, and even then it was only a 40% chance that he'd live, so we did the humane thing and put him to sleep (I refuse to let my pets be put down with a bullet or a shovel).
I also agree with the parent post. We have a cat that weighs like 30lbs. He seems to know whenever your angry or sad. If you sit down and your sad, he'll climb up onto your chest and start rubbing his face against yours. And my other cat, if he's climbing onto something he shouldn't, you can snap your fingers and point down, and he KNOWS he's in trouble. He also loves to play. If you get down on the floor and act like your gonna grab him, he'll roll over and act like he's trying to bite you.
I also hate it when I hear people talking about torturing cats. It makes me want to beat their face in... - ClassicJBC, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2What if your German Shepherds were horribly disfigured in an accident? Say they had brain damage, too. Would you disregard their well being because they are unattractive and no longer intelligent?
I'm not saying this as a criticism of you, of course, but I think most people really miss the connection between the empathy and compassion they feel toward cute pets and the hatred and desire to kill ugly, "stupid" things like insects.
If it can feel pain, then treat it like it feels pain. - yahoofrom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1do you?
- videoCT, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1the other day after catching a mouse, for about an hour afterwards he retraced his steps around the house, but only to the places where he had the mouse cornered, looking for it. That seems to be active memory. Granted he is an Abyssinian cat, one of the smartest breeds!
- robbiedo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I have lived with Parrots for 20 years. I have two of them, and they are never caged, and free to roam around when I am home, which gives me an awfully fun job to keep the place clean. They are two slightly different species. I would make the argument that one is more self aware than the other, but it is limited and significantly different from human and other mammalian intelligence.
Avian intelligence, especially of the corvids and parrots is something that we really understand in a very limited fashion. A quite different evolutionary path was taken by the birds. For a long time. scientists assumed that because bird brains are so much smaller than mammal brains that they were little more than a programmed ball of feathers. However, in recent years, researchers are coming to the realization that there is something else going on with birds, especially the corvids and parrots. Most people are aware of Alex the African Grey. I doubt that he is an exceptional parrot, just intensely trained to try to think like a mammal.
Sometimes it appears that science is trying to prove the obvious, but religious belief and the nature of man's specialness force us to take a circuitous path to what was obvious to many ancient cultures: the equality and respect for those that shared their environment. Maybe we are finally capable of relearning that and respecting it. - avolant, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1and in order to live you just have to be an individual being. what part of natural order cares how you think about it, or what concepts you hold at all? the way you think about your existence has nothing to do with your factual existence.
- xenixninja, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
Couldn't agree more on that one. - dortdruben, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1My cat is so smart she goes to the bathroom all by herself in her own, personal, "toilet"! She even buries it and sweeps the floor afterwards.
Take that, dogs! :P - theXenon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1My bulldog Licorice will jump down off the couch as soon as she hears me coming down the stairs. Sometimes, I will hear her jump down off the couch as soon as she hears me moving around upstairs brushing my teeth. I used to block the couch with the coffee table and an office chair on wheels until I came down one morning and the chair was rolled away from the couch and my dog was fast asleep not having heard me coming. Another morning she was rolling the chair back into place so I wouldn't know she had been sleeping on the couch! – I now block the couch with a laundry basket. She's afraid of laundry baskets because when she was little my kids liked to turn laundry baskets over and put them on top of her to watch her run around bumping into things.
My dog tries to deceive me all the time. -
Show 51 - 82 of 82 discussions
The Digg Toolbar for Firefox lets you Digg, submit content, and keep track of Digg even when you're not on the Digg site. Download the official 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is