What is Digg?580 Comments
- force275, on 10/12/2007, -64/+247@realhyperx
"I am catholic, my church helps battered women, poor people, children and many others. We have a soup kitchen every day. We are here to take care of people. Even if God is a myth, no other service exists that does what we do. We do not take money from taxes, we put in our own money for these things. We help. Have you ever talked to someone that lost a loved one? Church and faith helps tremendously."
That is all excellent work, but couldn't you do it without being threatened with eternal hellfire and the like if you don't? People should do these acts based on their own morals--not the threat of damnation. - vulgrin, on 10/12/2007, -80/+234"We do not take money from taxes"
B.S. you get freedom from property taxes and other tax breaks. Can you imagine what the property taxes would be if you just taxed all of the Catholic Church's properties in the U.S.? - Try billions of dollars.
And there are plenty of other organizations out there that feed the poor and help the homeless who aren't affiliated with the Church. - mike1630, on 10/12/2007, -96/+243Dawkins is the man.
- cdgod, on 10/12/2007, -21/+114@rubeusesclair
Sure they do lots for the community, and they can continue to do so without the guise of a mythology.
They can become a true not-for-profit like the Food Bank (without any religious undertones).
Kindess and warmness does not depend on a religion. - RenZ87, on 10/12/2007, -30/+120@force275
Why do people always assume all Christians are good because they fear hell? - Rodzirra, on 10/12/2007, -49/+123Shopko: "But the atheists I know absolutely HATE the fact that I pray to God and that I take my kids to Sunday School."
Shopko, I hate that you take your kids to church because you're not giving them a choice. Screw yourself up all you like, but leave the poor kids out of it. You're destroying their ability to discern between reality and fantasy. That, in my book, is a form of child abuse. - OneZeroZeroOne, on 10/12/2007, -9/+761) Not having a religion and speaking your opinion about that fact is NOT the same as being religious. There is no National Organization of Atheists lead by the Grand Atheist Wizard. Atheists don't have a creed or handbook. The only thing you can say about any atheist is that he or she does not believe in the supernatural, or that am omnipotent being created the universe. Having "fervor" over your beliefs isn't the issue. The issue is that, fervant or not, most atheists don't wage crusades or jihad, they don't murder, they don't found oppresive theocracies, they aren't willfully ignorant and they don't wantonly suppress scientific endeavors.
2) Why do you have to be a member of a church to be charitable? If you need to tag along with a bunch of other people that go to the same building you do every Sunday in order to do something good for other people, then that says something about you, doesn't it? Why do you do it? To impress others? Peer pressure? To please the idea of god that's in your head? Why not do it just to be nice? - RubeusEsclair, on 10/12/2007, -88/+150RealHyperx is right. Churches do more for the community than the government can. The tax breaks they get are offset by the things they do FOR the community. My chuch gives rides to people that have a job, but lost their transportation and can't afford anything. They give food to the people that are unable to work. They do things for people on a personal level that the government cannot accomplish.
Again, even if God is a hoax, you cannot deny the benefits of a church community. - SIDSI, on 10/12/2007, -32/+81Religion is not the peoblem, people are the problem, without religion those people would just find something else to fight over.
- Cutkomp, on 10/12/2007, -33/+69Religion isn't the really problem, people who exploit the many religions are. It's human nature to seek a higher power and appeal to authority. We are at a point of evolution I think, not physically but mentally. The Information Age will eventually bear good fruit as the people who exploit get exposed. Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus... all seeking the same thing, all looking in different directions, most being exploited. Sadly, the evil side of man will make it happen, but when it does all must be forgiven.
- Railer, on 10/12/2007, -42/+77Hitchens, Dawkins in the same debate. The only thing I would prefer is listening to the conversation of these two in a pub after the debate, couple smokes and a couple beers later then your going to hear a few good stories. And my guess they'll be filthy.
- ophilye, on 10/12/2007, -10/+45like what?
Skin colour?
sexual preference?
sex?
oil rights?
government procedures?
pfft... never happen. That's crazy talk. You're crazy. Get out of the road. - Rodzirra, on 10/12/2007, -18/+49renz87, I don't think many people think that "all Christians are good," so you don't have to worry.
- taintedzodiac, on 10/12/2007, -26/+53to summarize foxifiednutjob's post above:
People lie and think themselves better than others. Being religious does not change this simple fact. - pkulak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+25"I am catholic, my church helps battered women, poor people, children and many others."
Good people don't need religion to do good things. - theLured, on 10/12/2007, -33/+54I hate these articles. I am an atheist. I believe in science. By that I mean I don't believe in any religion(discounting science as a religion). Although I do hope for life after death or something close. Notice I said hope and not believe.
Religion is not the problem. People are. Everyone knows of the evil Christian in movies that tries to "do the lords work". It is the people, not the religion. If a religion says "go out and kill someone now" then it can be blamed, otherwise it shouldn't.
Religious people do not bother me if they don't discuss their religion too much with me. The preachers in town piss me off. I know about Christianity, but I don't want to hear about it the same as Christians would be offended if I started saying that evolution is the truth. If you are a preacher, preach in church, not town. If I do want to hear about Christianity then I will enter your church and ask about it.
Also I do not like Christians that try to stop teaching evolution. I believe in science, science is my religion{yes science can be classed as a religion). If a Christian says that evolution should not be taught then Christianity or any other religion shouldn't. It is egotistical to say that you know the truth. None of us know the truth, we just believe.
This Christianity vs science is just plain crap. I believe in one thing, you believe in another. All around we have roughly the same morals so lets just get along. For those that don't understand my thought that science is a religion, read a science book. You believe what it tells you. That belief is the same belief found in religion.
Science has proof. That's great that you have proof. Christians get proof too, like when you see on TV they have been given a second chance and gain their beliefs again.
Science disproves Christianity and Christianity disproves science. I believe science is right, but I don't say that I am right. I try not to be egotistical over my beliefs or anything else that I do(yes I know this can be read as me being conceited, for the smart arse who tries to point it out). - NotEvenClose, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24As a Christian, I agree that religion is a problem. But not for the same reasons listed. The problem with the Christian "religion" is that it was never suppose to be a "religion". It was never suppose to be about politics. It was never suppose to be about money. It was never suppose to be about whether we evolved or were "created". It was never suppose to be about Popes and TV evangelists. Christ was about love and faith.
For many "Christians", their religion has turned into prejudice and hate. For far too many, Christ is simply a religion. That is not what Christ was about. - geekee, on 10/12/2007, -12/+32Oh my science, you're right.
- beckerist, on 10/12/2007, -30/+48That's akin to saying "The programming on your Television set isn't what's causing your children to be violent, it's the TV set!"
no. Religion IS the problem because religion is the courier for corruption. Religion is no longer about differences in morality, it's now used as a tool to spread agendas (be it social, economic, political..etc)
There is no single religion that expresses MY exact views. Does that mean they are all wrong? To me, yes, to you, who knows? My point isn't that "religion is bad OMG11!!!11" My point is that religion CAN be bad, and yes, it's our human nature to blame for that, but don't regard the "philosophy." The philosophy is what triggers our human instincts to corrupt it in the first place.
Make religions OBJECTIVE (give me proof) and THEN you can stop blaming them. Until then, it's all up to interpretation. - xekko, on 10/12/2007, -18/+36I don't think we'd be better off without religion. We'd be better off with universal tolerance and acceptance, from *both* religious and non-religious people. We all should learn how to agree to disagree and to focus on what unites us rather than what divides us.
People should be allowed to believe whatever they want to believe, but no person should be able to force their beliefs on others, religious or otherwise. - reddfox321, on 10/12/2007, -16/+30I cosign 100%
The religion isn't the problem. Man is.
If all people could follow any religious code to the T, morality wouldn't even be a problem. People are not always altruistic by nature; they're equally exploitive. I think a lot of religious leaders should understand that they and theirs are no exception before they start the finger-pointing for societal ills. - ChumpChief, on 10/12/2007, -18/+32So, let me get this straight. Atheists tell religious people that the atheist way of thinking is the right way, and yet they berate the religious people for arguing over whose way of thinking is right?
What a load of hypocrisy. If you want to be atheist, be atheist. If you want to be Christian, be Christian. If you want to be Jewish, be Jewish. And feel free to think whatever you want to think about the other religious beliefs -- just don't try and push yours on to people who don't want it. - Ellsass, on 11/05/2008, -5/+17"I am catholic, my church helps battered women, poor people, children and many others. We have a soup kitchen every day. We are here to take care of people. Even if God is a myth, no other service exists that does what we do."
Maybe it's because you're already doing it. Are you suggesting that if all churches were to disappear, then no other organizations would form to help those same causes? Why set up a soup kitchen when one already exists? - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16@beckerist:
"Religion is no longer about differences in morality, it's now used as a tool to spread agendas (be it social, economic, political..etc)"
Dude, that just shows a level of innate naivete I doubt I'll see again on Digg.
Religion has ALWAYS been a tool for spreading an agenda, much like a knife has always been a tool for spreading jam. Organized religion is, at its essence, the ability for a small number of people to control the belief and value systems of a large number of people. At that level, it's a concentration of power; regardless of how 'moral' you think those wielding such power may be, it's always a precursor to abuse.
You know the old saw: 'Power Corrupts'. We like to think, 'Oh, but our leader wouldn't do THAT'. Except that our religious leaders have for millenia now. Starting from the cherry-picking of the gospels, continuing though the Spanish Inquisition, and even into modern, alter-boy-molesting Catholicism. And, of course, that's only one fork of Judaism we're talking about. The examples of religious abuses among Islamic leadership are myriad and newsworthy enough that I don't even need mention them. Jesus Christ - as a theoretical historical figure - knew this; his own death was caused by the same sort of corruption in Jewish leadership of the time. Tibetan Buddhist monks before the Chinese invasion were also quite exploitative (suffering from what we call 'Ivory Tower' disease, in a very real way). One only need to take a glance at Hindu to know that the same sort of abuses go on there.
But, of course, that's the deal a believer makes; the leaders get some level of control over me, and I get some level of peace of mind. It's a good deal for some people - even if abuses do occur. It's an especially good deal for people for whom peace of mind is a rare and valuable commodity.
But I'm not one of those people. And I'd like it very much if the various theists around would leave me alone about my views on the existence or non-existence of God. I'm sharing my insight, not attacking you. Humility aside, I'm probably one of the more polite, respectful, and clear-thinking atheists you'll meet on the internet (because, as we all know, normal person + anonymity = inane troll); so, please don't treat me like I'm the 14 year old kid in the back of the class who wears all black and takes every opportunity to tell you 'There is no God'. I generally don't bother people with that uncomfortable likelihood. I prefer instead to look at atheism and the various theisms from an objective and critical perspective. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18Religious thought is often a so deeply routed cognitive dissonance no amount of arguments or logic or sweet talk will remove it from a fellow human being. Plus, some religiously infected may become violent; try arguing for modern liberal humanism to a algerian bearded muslim in a jalabba; he will KILL you for trying.
- iceperson, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13@Bob
If someone says "religious person X, Y and/or Z killed x number of people" and uses that to determine that "We'd be better off without Religion" then the rebuttal "non-religious person X, Y, and/or Z killed x number of people" is a valid retort. Sometimes people need their own irrational argument regurgitated to them before they see the irrationality of it. - prammy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@yenster:
My roommate is a Muslim and I am a Hindu. We do have some interesting discussions on religion.
Some things he was surprised about was that (a) we have no policy on conversion, (b) we have no excommunication and (c) we do not consider people who convert to other religions to be heretics. Another popular misconception about Hinduism is that we are polytheistic (in its core Hinduism is not polytheistic, we believe in the supreme consciousness called Brahman, not the same as the case brahmin), in fact atheism is also valid in Hinduism (check out info about Samkhya school of philosophy in Hinduism).
Buddhism can be viewed as a derivative of the Samkhya school if you think philosophically. There is no God, only enlightenment (which in Hinduism is Brahman).
Hinduism and Buddhism essentially boils down to 'Help other people, don't do things to other people that you don't want done for yourself'. Like other religions they are not perfect, but boils down to 'Do the right thing and don't hurt anyone else and if you must choose between knowledge and power, pick knowledge'. - VAXcat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12 To paraphrase Diderot, "Humankind will not be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last shaman".
- 955701, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@RealHyperx
Yeah, those are things that any organized group with a public service arm does. The difference is that the church does it to advertise their message as much as they do for compassion. Although any individual churchgoer may have more compassion and less advertising in mind, the church doesn't think that way. Poor people don't have money, but labor is expensive and they have plenty of that.
I have been asked to leave eight (!) times from charity events at churches when they found out I didn't believe in gods, including theirs. I was simply there to help people.
This goes for schools as well - churches have schools because propoganda is more successful when it starts early - Rezistik, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@chronusmcgee
Hitler wasn't atheist don't be a fool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs
Its strange how the only religion anyone here speaks of is Christianity besides of course chronus who mentions "murderous Muslims"
Most wars and murders are caused by religion or are performed by religious people, however that might just be because most of the world is religious
I myself am atheist, it doesn't mean i think everyone should be atheist that is one of my problems with religion and faith they want you to believe what they want you to and not to question it and they always think they are right. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@RealHyperX,
"my church helps battered women, poor people, children and many others. We have a soup kitchen every day. We are here to take care of people. Even if God is a myth, no other service exists that does what we do. We do not take money from taxes"
In fact, a study done in 2004 by Rachel M. McCleary, and Robert J. Barro of the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs at Harvard University, which covered 66 years and 1,693 US-based relief organizations found that a majority of relief organizations in the United States were secular in nature and unrelated to any religious organization. In addition, many organizations founded many years ago with religious names, sign of those times, are now utterly secular, such as Christian Children's Fund. Google it yourself.
Internationally, there are many, many more secular relief organizations than church-based ones.
You are simply ignorant of the facts, and merely reciting what you have been brain-washed with from birth by your religious community.
Oh, and you certainly *do* take money from taxes - churches don't pay property taxes on your church-owned property, which adds significantly to my taxes (especially since most churches, and their cemateries, take up prime real estate), costing the nation in aggregate many, many billions of dollars (in fact, we could provide free universal health care to every citizen in the US with the money churches don't pay in taxes). Not to mention the fact that churches are the only "nonprofits" exempt from financial accountability reporting to the federal government. No one knows *what* goes where and how much is spent on what - it's all done on "faith".
Most remarkable of all, you start the discussion by stating that you are a Catholic. The Catholic Church is one of the richest organizations in the entire world, and pays no taxes on any of it. Your church's wealth, by some estimates, exceeds that of all other churches *combined*. Wealth, it is worth adding, that is accumulating at far greater pace than is being distributed in services to the poor (your church exploits your volunteering while you fill their coffers with donations and real estate appreciation)
You benefit greatly from my atheistic tax dollars, thank you not. - arkuden, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11This story wasnt brought to the front page of digg becuase someone wanted to argue about religion. It was brought to the front page becuase someone found the story and submitted it and a whole bunch of people said "hey this is cool. dugg" If you are tired of it, dont dig it and dont read the comments.
- yenster, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Being interested in and exploring comparative religion, I've come to realize that a study of religion is basically a study of moral relativism. Of the Big Five religions on this planet (Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam and Judaism), the three monotheistic religions (B, C & I) seem to have the most glaring discrepancies between the perceived cultural or public morality as handed down via common religious teaching and what the Almighty will actually condone under the "right" circumstances.
For instance, did you know that at one point or another in the Christian/Jewish scriptures, God condones (thereby making it morally permissible):
1. Killing a human for doing manual labor on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)
2. Random murder for no particular discernible moral reason (Genesis 19:26)
3. Death for those practicing the "Withdrawal" method of birth control (Genesis 38:9)
4. Human sacrifice (Leviticus 27:29); example of the practice at Judges 11:30-39 (children, no less)
5. Genocide, meaning the complete annihilation of a population including innocent non-combatants (so many examples that I can't list them all but start with Numbers 16:49, Numbers 21:3 and Numbers 21:35...there's plenty more like these )
6. Taking virgins as war prize (rape?) and even setting aside several ("the Lord's tribute") as human sacrifice (Numbers 31:31-40)
...and on and on and on it goes. As one studies further, one begins to question how you can base *any* moral/ethical system on the religious teachings of at least three of the world's five most popular belief systems. Last time I checked, none of these have been rescinded; they have as core teaching the idea that the Deity acts on a whim and if you've got enough power and He favors you, might makes right. There are no other moral absolutes that I can see. Which is shocking, because I started my studies, like most students, steeped in the Christian idea of moral absolutes and brainwashed to be wary of religions like Buddhism and Hinduism that are less detailed or vocal about what is permissible of the just and moral person. - LogicBomB, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11Many would say the same for life without athiests.
The problem in life is people forcing their views on others and making decisions for the people based on the opinions of a few. - bcasper1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@foxifiednutjob:
I'm an atheist, but I cant help being superstitious when I'm bowling... - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11Um.
Hitler was a good Christian boy, douche. Don't try to pass your nutters off on us.
As for Stalin and Mao, the murder of innocents in their countries was politically driven. Not that it matters. OP is correct in that if dictators and mobs want blood, they'll use whatever excuse suits them to get it.
It's just that religion constitutes a conveniently repercussion-free excuse. So does nationalism. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@the lured,
"Religion is not the problem. People are."
With respect, your argument is logically fallacious.
The sole justification for organized religion - for following what someone else tells you is their interpretation of what a holy book says you should do - is the argument that it makes people better.
If it fails to do so - and, as you yourself admit, the evidence is that religion not only fails, on balance, to improve peace, harmony and wellbeing of all humankind, but, on the contrary, many people follow it to horrendous excess - then perhaps it is rational and critical to examine if there is not some basic, inherent flaw in organized religion itself.
Evidence shows that the more religious a society it is, the worse its members fare across a wide array of quantifiable measures of societal wellbeing.
In fact, a strong, logical, rational and empirical argument can be made that religion itself is a bad thing for humankind, because religion itself leads inevitably to a surrender of individual responsibility and critical thought.
You might as well say, "misogyny isn't bad, misogynists are". Sometime an idea, in an of itself, causes inevitable harm and needs to be combated for the betterment of all humanity. - digitalranger, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I find the arguments in favour of religion to be highly arrogant. Any religion you look to would seem to suggest by following only it's teachings generates virtue and altruism in a person (the inference being that the rest of us are godless barbarians).
The world needs altruism and virtue - altruism and virtue do not require religion. - wobblebottom, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I like how when there is a post about religion, it always boils down to Atheists vs. Christians. I never see you guys taking pot shots at the Shinto faith, or Zoroastrianism. As far as I'm concerned fundie christians are as bad as most aggro atheists in the respect that they all act like the other is the most evil thing in the world. I am a Christian I believe Christ died for my sins and yours whether you believe it or no. Feel free to flame and spew hate, but know this, EVERYBODY is capable of being a complete and total ass no matter what religion they believe in. As far as i can tell, if the Bible turns out to be a total lie, and there is no god, then i have only lived my life devoted to a cause i believe in which in my experience promotes love and acceptance. I have always tried to be colorblind to how people live their lives, and not to judge them. I am only human, so i do not always succeed, but this is not the fault of the belief i claim, but my own. I applaud Richard Dawkins on being a very smart man, and having many good things to say. Indoctrination of children into religion of any sort is wrong (he convinced me of this) , but that does not mean you should not raise your children to make a choice on their own. If i have children, I will take them to church, and I will also inform them of other beliefs that they might explore so they can come to grips with their own spirituality on their own. So, as far as i am concerned we can live and let live, or we can continue to be pissy little internet trolls who have nothing nice to say to each other.
- wobblebottom, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@Cardiakke
As a christian, i can say that Dawkins is by far more level headed than most fundie Christians. Most of the right wingers I hear of are ignorant and uninformed whereas Dawkins is very well informed, and level headed. He says many things i do not agree with, and a few that i agree with very much. Saying that we would be better off without him is the exact kind of drivel we don't need to hear. He is a voice in the world which will help sway people either left or right, to believe in whatever or to deny everything. I believe in choice, the choice to believe in whatever you choose. I chose to believe in christ for reasons too long to go into on this forum. As i have said before I make it a point to be respectful of others. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Thats a pretty much universal sentence of clear thinking whether you be christian, atheist, or muslim. As far as i know, people do not actively seek to be kicked in the crotch with spiky boots (unless you are an active member of the 4chan community that is), so with that said, i am fairly sure everyone at heart would like to get along, and be happy. I know I would. - Hetman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6To qoute bob marley. A mighty god is a living man. I just think religion takes away power from people and substitutes it with something that is not really there. Instead of just praying for something to get better go out and make it better.
- manchesterU, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9It's people that are responsible for all the violence and hatred in the world.
By the logic "espoused" here:
Evolution is "EVIL" because Adolf Hitler justified the holocaust with racial superiority. - yenster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@prammy
"(c) we do not consider people who convert to other religions to be heretics."
Reading the writings of early Dutch, French, Spanish, British and Portuguese Christian missionaries to South and Southeast Asia, I was always amused to read how the local population could happily crowd into the Christian church on Sundays then just as happily show back up at the Ashram or Wat the next day for more religion. It apparently drove the early missionaries nuts that they couldn't get an exclusive contract, so to speak. I love Hindus and Buddhists--they just seem to be unable to comprehend the finer points of sectarianism. :) - ddxChrist, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8A lot of personal insight can be gained from religion. I'm a Buddhist, but then again I don't quite consider it a 'religion'. Nevertheless, the problem with organized religion is its inability to withstand any sort of criticism without backlash. In my opinion, it's a necessity to question the fundamental tenets of ones own 'religion'. If you can't, how does it have any meaning? How does one develop? I'm always critical of what I consider. Accepting nonsense is a worthless hindrance.
- Intangible360, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I have two very simple things to ask: Why is debate on the subject of religion bad? When is debate ever bad?
- yukevster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Actually dedicated Buddhists are looking for nothing... "That which you are seeking, is causing you to seek"
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