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282 Comments
- inactive, on 07/22/2008, -11/+386Nothing "defies" physics, they just have to redefine what is currently known
- steelese, on 07/22/2008, -10/+271As a classically trained cellist, I would go about it this way. Press extremely hard on the string, then proceed to push your finger toward the bridge. Now this is were it gets sticky. You would need a lot of friction on you finger so as not to slip down the string, but rather drag it with you. Now here is were it is possible being a violinist, and not so much for us cellist. When you play at extremely high frequencies you need to get very close to the bridge. Chances are she picks up so rosin from the area here bow contacts her string. I have seen here play, she uses circular bowing like I do, thus she is all over the strings as she plays. This would increase here contact with rosin. So rosin is very sticky and would increase the friction between her finger and the string. This would allow her to drag the string with her finger. This would then lower the tension on the string between her finger and the bridge thus creating a low not.
This is just my well educated guess. Chances are she started tensing up as she was playing, that would be in line with her age when she started doing it. At that age there is a lot of performance fear. This caused her to pull her arm and fingers in and thus made her play sharp. You tend to play sharp when you're tense and flat when you don't care. Don't know why, it's just that way. Because she was obviously a trained to be a virtuoso, she used increased pressure to compensate for the slippage. It then became a habit and as she continued to do it she became stronger. Enough so that she created the effect.
So there you go. Physicist prove me wrong. - Lane, on 07/22/2008, -7/+159I just had an awesome idea. Suppose all matter and energy is made up of tiny, vibrating "strings."
"Okay. What would that imply?"
"I dunno." - Neiby, on 07/22/2008, -7/+153This is extremely interesting, but that music makes me want to kill kittens.
- Stupidumb, on 07/22/2008, -3/+102She's probably just humming the note while she pretends to play.
- cubbiesx, on 07/22/2008, -2/+92Impossible music > Alternative music
- inactive, on 07/22/2008, -13/+88i wish i could see a video of her doing it....maybe bending the neck in is all i can think of...
- theradical, on 07/22/2008, -1/+62oh my goodness, she's discovered the brown note!
- RTourn, on 07/22/2008, -3/+62Give it time, this is how science works.
- steve9924, on 07/21/2008, -3/+57Looks like the Norwegian researchers startd a couple of years ago, but I can't find any published results ... I'd really like to know what they found out.
- jjjjjjb, on 07/22/2008, -0/+50These are actually called subtones. They've been around for a while, i.e. at least 20-30 years. What you do is bow very hard and slowly - not so slowly as to make the sound totally break up - if you use a little more bow than that, the subtones will emerge. The sound that comes out is a minor 9th below what it 'should' be. You need to bow more towards the fingerboard than you normally would.
(There is a piece by George Crumb that makes use of this extensively - he even notates the resultant sounding pitches - cannot remember the name of the piece right now).
*Why* it works this way is another question. - inactive, on 07/22/2008, -4/+49Another sign of his great noodly appendage blessing this earth!
- steve9924, on 07/22/2008, -0/+44a stretched string increases the tension and makes a *higher* pitch, not a lower one....
- DFENS, on 07/22/2008, -0/+40*Shakes Fist*
Damn Your Science! - RedRummy, on 07/22/2008, -3/+35Its called additive synthesis... 2 or more vibrational sources or waveforms (violin body / bow / strings) can combine to produce a sound that has harminics which aren't present in either of the 2 source waveforms.
Its a staple of electronic music, but it is amazing if it is possible on a stringed instrument. - megaton, on 07/22/2008, -0/+26I agree: her bow, jerking or hopping at a rate twice that of the frequency of the note she's playing, could definitely cause this sub-harmonic phenomenon. The bow, in effect, interrupting every other oscillation of the string, would cause string to vibrate at half its natural rate, therefore making a tone an octave lower than it typically would. With careful control of the bow and a transfer of the energy of the string's natural vibration to the bow, I could see how it's possible for a person to do this on demand. The uncertainty of the note played at the end of the audio clip further supports this suggestion.
As an aside, it's ironic that a bunch of diggers (non-scientists) are digging down your theory down because you (a non-scientist) are a non-scientist. Their non-scientific opinion obviously supersedes your non-scientific opinion. Obviously.
And yes, you are right to use "theory" as a synonym of "hypothesis."
Oh, did I mention I'm a professional acoustical engineer? (*psst* That means I'm a scientist.) - Sal4, on 07/22/2008, -0/+26Well that article had an unsatisfying conclusion...
- theOster, on 07/22/2008, -1/+27A WITCH!!! BURN HER!!!!
- Stupidumb, on 07/22/2008, -1/+26I...don't think it's because of the music...
Just take a deep breath - steve9924, on 07/22/2008, -3/+27well, I guess the title was a bit toungue in cheek - hence the cheeky "so far".
it "defies" explanation at this point tho :) - mrgodai, on 07/22/2008, -4/+28Violin of Subharmonics
Binds when equipped
Violin
Ranged
Speed 1.7
1 - 1 Damage
(1 damage per second)
Durability 90 / 90
Requires Level 67
Equip: Chance to confuse scientists for 1-2 days - Regbooker, on 07/22/2008, -0/+23"Although you are a smart bunch."
Yes, watched your profile and you're new here. Don't worry, soon you'll find the sad truth. - Jeffool, on 07/22/2008, -1/+23Um, you guys aren't really paying attention to the nuance of the article. (Though, to be fair, it's easy to miss.) It's not a question of how it happens (she outlined it here: http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?I ... ) it's a question of 'why it works.'
For what that's worth, I dig this lady; find something you can do, and kick people's ass with it. Also, she has a blog: http://subharmonics.blogspot.com/
Shame Diggers, where is your Internet-fu? - joegibes, on 07/22/2008, -0/+20String theory states that although matter is made up of atoms, atoms are made of smaller and smaller particles, which at the lowest level are made of tiny 'strings' of energy and whatnot.
- mystikraven, on 07/22/2008, -1/+19Actually, that would be 0.59 damage per second, if the Speed is 1.7.
Man, I'm pathetic. - inactive, on 07/21/2008, -20/+37Interesting that they can't figure out how she is doing it!
- afx1, on 07/22/2008, -1/+16she better stop violating the laws of physics if she knows what's good for her
- steve9924, on 07/22/2008, -0/+15link at the bottom
- Lingur, on 07/22/2008, -0/+14So would this be the audio equivalent of "photoshopped"?
- nextyoyoma, on 07/22/2008, -2/+15Ok, you guys are (understandably) putting forth a lot of theories that show your ignorance of string playing. One of the more popular theories here has to do with the "cancellation" of vibrations from her circular bowing. Circular bowing is is a fancy way to say that when you change from one bow to another, you move your hand in a slightly circular pattern to avoid completely stopping your hand. The bow MUST stop, if only for an immeasurably small moment, but there is no way for the horizontal motion of the bow to completely change direction without stopping. Circular bowing just helps to decrease this time that the bow is stopped. Circular bowing would not even be an aspect of what we're hearing here, because what we're hearing is not simply at the beginning or end of a stroke. Even if that were not the case, circular bowing is not some magical technique that allows you to defy physics. Virtually every well-trained string player uses this technique.
Also, many of you seem to lack an understanding of physics and why this is so remarkable. When a stringed instrument is played, the sound you hear is the result of the vibration of the string. The rate of this vibration determines the fundamental pitch of that string. That rate is determined by the factors of the string's mass per unit length, tension, and length. In theory it should be impossible to the change the pitch to a note lower than the fundamental without increasing the string length, decreasing the tension, or increasing the m/ul.
My theory is that our understanding of the physics of the vibrating string is flawed. Brass players can produce tones lower than the easily obtainable "first partial" by actually playing the fundamental. I believe that the sound produced by a normally vibrating string may not indeed be the fundamental, but instead the first partial. Guess we'll se.e.
edit : My last post may not have gone through. If it did, bury this one. - steelese, on 07/22/2008, -0/+13I've done the whole sub tone thing, The problem is this is several octaves bellow a normal violin register. If you listen to the music you notice everything is a glis. I'm not saying that the subtone bowing technique isn't involved, I believe there is more to it.
I pulled out my cello and was able to lower the not significantly through a friction pull.
I also know how the bowing technique works. If you think of a bow as millions of tiny fingers picking at a string it will is easier to understand. Each time the string is picked it snaps back and then rebounds, only to be picked again by the bow. This happens extremely fast, on the A string 440 times per minute. When you put pressure on the bow you slow down it's snap and rebound. This creates a significantly slower frequency. The reason it is the minor 9th is because of where the bow sits in proportion to the string.
This isn't noise cancellation, like throat singing. Think of it as a damper.
The reason why I don't think this is it. The sound has a creaky hollow sound. This has that hollow sound, which is why I don't rule out bowing techniques all together. However, the resultant sound of this violinist is much smoother. The other issue is one of the amount of friction that can be produced. Even with bass rosin on the bow, the friction could not overcome the tension on the string sufficiently.
Oh well, I could be totally wrong. In which case you win. FTW
EDIT: I also realized I had my gut strings on, which would make it much easier to stretch the string as you drag it. - hypogenic, on 07/22/2008, -5/+17I just play guitar casually but that's the first thing I thought about this also. Will try after work at home to get impossibly low notes. Wait. I have FR. Forget it..
New idea: need patent fast - a Floyd Rose for violin. - steelese, on 07/22/2008, -0/+12It would depend on the instrument. Younger stringed instruments do bend toward the bridge. This general stops after about 1 year. The longest I have heard of curing time was 3 years. Once the wood cures, it doesn't bend anymore. Maybe her violin is made of a highly elastic wood. Probably not. Read my comment further down to see my idea.
- drgmdp, on 07/22/2008, -4/+16HYPOTHESIS, not theory
- mistermaster, on 07/22/2008, -11/+22God did it.
- PhoebusApollo, on 07/22/2008, -1/+12Violin: 1, Science: 0
- Hackenslacker, on 07/22/2008, -0/+11It's a clean octave jump, no bending.
- RadiatedAnt, on 07/22/2008, -0/+11I wish I could unhear that :(
- HMMcKamikaze, on 07/22/2008, -0/+10Or the Impossible lifestyle, for that matter.
- EntangledPhysx, on 07/22/2008, -0/+10worked for me.
- bcstereotype, on 07/22/2008, -1/+10Fascinating, though the shortness of the article leaves me wondering if the whole story has not been told.
- JakeyG14, on 07/22/2008, -3/+12I'm a classically trained physicist and it IS indeed possible to exceed the velocity of light, so maybe that has something to do with this...maybe?
- thatguydr, on 07/22/2008, -0/+9YES! Oh dear god is it sad that the only correct answer has only 10 diggs.
I'm a violinist and a physicist. It's easy to produce these notes but VERY HARD to sustain one at a specific pitch. And that, to me, defines the mechanism.
Ordinary strings vibrate at the fundamental, which means that they are held at both ends and the length of the vibration is 2* the length of the string (if we're defining the wave). If you pluck the string with your finger, it makes a POP noise and resonates. (Remember that.) When you bow, the rosin causes micro-contact with the string (and a micro-displacement), so you're driving (adding energy to) the string without physically pulling it a large distance, allowing it to vibrate at the fundamental.
A VERY SHORT string is difficult to bow, as the micro-contact (and subsequent micro-displacement) from the rosin can interfere with the actual "width" of vibration.
The subharmonics likely occur because the bow is GRIPPING the hell out of the string at one end. This changes the ordinary "width" of the vibration - the micro-displacement (or a sum of a few of them) effectively BECOMES the width of the vibration. (You've "removed" the "held" end of the string nearest the bow.) Of course, you're only pulling the string in one direction, so the pull to one side followed by the slip-back would likely cause the actual waveform to NOT be sinusoidal.
The same physical effect is the initial pop of pizzicato (plucked strings), and the fact that I find it damned-near-impossible to sustain a single note when I'm playing sub-harmonics (I get "croak") is because my bow technique does not evenly pull the string at a single frequency (but rather a large mix).
Does that make sense? I wish I could draw pictures here, since it really doesn't seem that it's all-too-difficult of a mechanism to understand. If one took the teeth of the saw and made them "pluck" and made their spacing very small, that's basically what the bow is acting like... - FeargusMcDuff, on 07/22/2008, -0/+9I thought the strings made up sub-subatomic particles.
- shlemielo, on 07/22/2008, -0/+8There's a video of her playing here with several examples of "subharmonics".
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XNzL75a_dD8
I've played violin for quite a while, but I've never used this technique in a real performance. It's fairly simple to do. you just need to press down very hard with the bow, flatten out the hair, and play closer to the fingerboard. By doing this, the string vibrates at a slower rate than normal, and you create the effect of a lower note. - blergle, on 07/22/2008, -1/+9I suspect the bow itself is acting as an LFO / sub-oscillator.
- whoawen, on 07/22/2008, -1/+9Is it inconceivable to you that not every person on digg speaks English as their first language?
- theOster, on 07/22/2008, -1/+9you're all missing the ref;
http://xkcd.com/171/ - smurfsahoy, on 07/22/2008, -1/+9One thing that nobody has mentioned yet, and that is not ruled out in the article, is that these low frequencies don't actually exist at all. There's a psychological illusion called the "missing fundamental" illusion. If you hear a number of frequencies that are all multiples of one another, you will hear them as having the pitch of the lowest multiple, EVEN IF that lowest multiple does not exist.
For example, if you hear a 1,000 Hz tone, a 1,500 Hz tone, and a 2,000 Hz tone all mixed together, your brain will interpret it as a sort of weird 500 Hz tone, even though there is no such tone actually in the air. If a violinist were to play 2 or more almost perfect frequencies that are multiples of a lower, nonexistent frequency, then the audience would hear a tone that a violin shouldn't be able to produce. But it wouldn't be violating any laws of physics, because the tone they hear isn't real, just imagined.
In theory, if you play the violin precisely enough, you should be able to produce PERCEIVED (but imaginary) tones as low as the ear can hear - around 20 Hz or so, like a distant fog horn or something. - Gartland32, on 07/22/2008, -1/+9Well it sure is a good thing you're here to clear that up for us.
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