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- da5idblacksun, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Love it and can't wait. Hopefully Honda will do a diesel hybrid.
- Scopitone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Digging for the brilliant title. Well done
- brufleth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7There used to be these things called station wagons. They were longer than normal cars and had a large cargo area that could be folded up into a third seat. Eight people (or six people and two large dogs) could fit in them quite well. They didn't get gas mileage like a Civic but it was better than an Explorer.
Stations wagons were phased out though because they were classified as cars instead of trucks and they hurt the overall mileage of a car line for car makers. So they aren't made anymore because they were less efficient than cars but they were still a better option than today's SUV.
Car companies convinced consumers they wanted a big gas guzzling truck when a mild mannered station wagon was all they really needed.
No, a Volvo, Ford Taurus, Audi, etc wagon is not the same. They're nothing more than sedans with swollen trunks. - DarkSideofMoon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7One thing that amazes me about North America (especially as I live in Alberta, Canada - very oil rich province) is the belief that everybody needs a really nice truck. A heavy duty truck that does more than the person driving it actually needs.
I drive a Mercury Topaz that gets me from Point A to Point B (and on weekends Point C) and it does me perfectly. The right amount of gas mileage to keep my pocketbook happy. I just graduated from highschool and a lot of my friends who went to work in the oilfield just went out and bought a fancy new truck to win some points with the ladies (or something) and I just don't see the reasonning for it. They're not hauling huge goods, nor doing anything absolutely spectacular in the field, so I believe it's just a status thing.
North America has to get past this belief that we need something bigger than we actually need to get a job done. - fnj2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@mlkmnz
You're out of date. A long time ago diesels were slow to start when cold but quick when hot. Nowadays they are very quick both cold and hot (BOTH diesel and gas can be slow when VERY cold). On my VW TDI the glowplugs aren't even engaged at all unless the engine block temperature drops below 50* F, and even then only for 2-3 seconds unless it gets really cold; closer to 0* F. The hot restart, or cold start on a warm summer day, is quicker than just about any gas engine.
If there is anything against diesel hybrids, it's that a diesel doesn't NEED to be hybridized for good economy the way a gas engine does. Diesels retain MUCH more of their efficiency at low output than do gas engines.
As for noise, mine is quieter inside the cabin than the comparable gas model.
In real world comparisons such as this one by Autoweek , the VW TDI outperforms the Prius hybrid in terms of fuel economy. - nox327, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Mercedes ones again is leading the automotive industry into the future where diesel cars will take over and replace the current overhyped Hybrids.
Here is how the BlueTec engine works from Mercedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee-_9osMRfg
Look at the side image on cnn, Mercedes diesel vs. Lexus Hybrid, what did I say. - Web_Weasel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It's actually CNNs title but it is great.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5actually i have ridden in a few new diesels, like the mercedes ones, and they are whisper quiet. quieter than my gassy volvo. the technology has vastly improved
- ZenMojo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4What the ***** is wrong with people? We're being offered piss and ***** and everyone's just eating it up like it's the second coming.
Sulfur emissions are down but all other emissions are the same. The hybrids on display get ridiculously mediocre mileage.
Anyone remember the Ford Eco Spirit? 104 MPG!
Look up these cars: VW Beetle, Golf, Ford Fiesta, Honda Civic.
http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/overall-high.htm
Face it, cars are getting less and less mpg and it's like no one's even paying attention. We don't need a conspiracy, people don't really want fuel efficiency. - mlkmnz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@Screwy1138
"First, you don't own any medium+ sized dogs, do you?"
Yup. 2 actually. Retrievers. On the odd occasion when they need to travel in a vehicle, they go on the backseat. Rolling around unrestrained. Yet we're all still alive, go figure.
"Hiring a trailer might help, but you have to drive extra miles to get one and when you're hauling a trailer your gas mileage tanks anyway."
Honestly, how often would this guy need a trailer? 4 times a year? The occaisional slight inconvenience of that trip to the hire place wouldn't make a dent compared to the fuel consumption of a bigger car which has one person driving in it most of the time. People love to justify why they need a vehicle that is completely unsuitable to 99% of their driving conditions. Just because I might like to travel by air, doesn't mean I have to buy a Lear jet. - OnymousHero, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Other way round bucko, its about 50 US mpg. (3.8 litres per USgal, 4.5 per brit one).
Why do we still insist on using friggin antiquated units which aren't even consistent from country to country?? - EmileVictor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Not really. Audi did it before Mercedes, and I'm sure someone did it before Audi.
- Fashion_Nugget, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Of course what they really want is to turn attention away from electric cars. Many of the major car makers had an electric car a few years ago (1997) but pulled them once they realized that they wouldn't make money on all of the "maintenance" parts. That includes oil changes, and various filters for fuel and air that electric cars don't have. Of course the best thing about an electric car is that you can "fill up" at home. Demand electric cars.
- mgbuddy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Diesel offer some great advantages to petrol on the green side.
- Diesel cycle can be used with a lot of different carburants with no or little modification. For example, my New Beetle TDi can run on almost any natural seed oil only adding a 30€ heater on the carburant intake.
- In the "offline" type of hybrids (All electrical engine with an internal combustion engine charging batteries), a Diesel engine is perfect suited. Works better at a constant RPM and has a lot more of torque.
- All problems of the old days had almost definitively gone. (Noise, start-up problems, smoke...)
- To all of you arging the cancerigen particle problem:
- The diesel sold in EEUU is full of sulphurs and really dirty. Any modern european Diesel can't use it without destroying the catalizators in a few kilometers. The sulphurs are the most prominent cause of the cancerigen in Diesels. The new TDI diesels burn the carburant almost completely, and the few that may get out are burned or trapped in the cartalyzator.
- The particles are heavy and are deposited to the ground very quickly, so it's really dificult to get to your lungs if you don't put your mouth directly to the exhaust. - ZeroLogic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Ya know a Turbo Diesel would be nice... I would buy one.. but I live in California... Just can't buy one here, and can't buy out of state and register it here. The 7500 mile rule sucks.
- apdicaprio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Diesel is ok, bio-diesel has an issue below 40F which is why for the most part it is an additive and only run straight in the lower 48. Cold starts was an issue a long time ago as well as noise but those issues have all been solved for the most part.
- apdicaprio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2You probably also buy into the 200mpg carb., you know, the one that no one can demo because they are scared to. Really, the liability on the electrics was too high so the cars where pulled. With how lawsuit happy the US is, I can hardly blame them, but there is no conspiracy. If GM could put honda / toyota / mercedes... out of business with a car that lasts 200k miles and uses electricity for a very reasonable price, they would. Honda doesn't seem to care about building a car that lasts 200k+ miles. Gas is a VERY cheap energy store which makes it worth while for now. Some time is needed for being able to fill up a car's electric charge in 5 minutes (similar to a tank of gas) before it is viable as many people need more than the 300 mile range prior to an 8 hour break.
- Web_Weasel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I've already got one. A 2005 Jeep Liberty Diesel. Great mileage and power.
- OnymousHero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Interestingly, the diesel cycle is less efficient thermodynamically than the otto (petrol) one, however diesel fuel has a higher calorific value and hence the engines are more economical than their petrol counterparts.
Roll on veg oil diesel :D - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Here in Europe, Diesel cars are already very popular. Probably down to our far higher fuel prices. In a small car like my Renault Clio, 60 MPG is usual, already as good as or better than a hybrid and less expensive, less complicated and with no horrible chemicals from batteries to dispose of at the end of their life. (60 MPG on an Imperial gallon is 72 MPG on a US gallon).
- SVPirate, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If anyone can make a good diesel, the germans can and so can Honda (they just seem tp be good at anything to do with making cars).
That said, with the help of Peugeot/Citroen, Ford have made some mighty good diesels for the Land Rover range (TDV6 and TDV8). The latter is one of the smoothest and quietest diesels in the world and generates astounding power and torque thanks to twin turbos. You'd think such an engine would drinkl mega fuel but in fact it's rated at 27.1 mpg (in UK gallons), which is pretty respectable for a 2.5 tonne SUV.
It's about time people got into the idea that Diesel is a great fuel all-round. Until such time as a really viable alternative fuel is found, it's gonna have to be the next forward step. It's more efficient and can be made clean, plus modern engines are powerful and refined. Also Shell can blend performance diesel fuel from methane, which in turn can be made from renewable sources. As a result you've reduced impact on non-renewable oil resources, cut the amount of carbon emissions per mile, and kept petrol-like performance (and maybe even improved on it in areas). Suddenly tractor fuel doesn't look so planet destroying? - mlkmnz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6@Shivetya: In response to your points:
1) Tell your friends to suck it up and squeeze in
2) Hire a trailer. You could do that hundreds of times and still come in cheaper than the cost difference between a Murano and a Civic
3) They're dogs. The back-seat with a dog harness is fine if you're worried about safety. Either that or leave them at home, they need not go through the drive through with you
4) You're pocket's fine, but what about the planet?
Your reasons for owning a guzzler are pathetic to say the least. Its your mindset which is contributing to the murder of the planet. Unless you're a contractor or farmer, you have no reason to own a big truck or SUV, period. - brufleth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The US has more stringent particulate emissions laws than Europe. Even the VW TDI which is relatively "clean" can't be purchased in several states (New York and California I think) because of its particulate emissions.
Car manufacturers are working frantically to make cleaner diesels though so hopefully they'll come up with something clean enough to meet the emissions standards that also gets better mileage. - 0v3rk1ll, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Diesels are awesome. Anyone who says they "smoke a lot", "are noisy and smelly" clearly need to pull their head out of their ass and realize that we're in the 21st century. With common rail technology, diesels have come a long way. And, torque is your biggest friend.
- brufleth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"don't try and force feed people things they don't want"
Remember station wagons? Someone passed (probably good spirited) laws making the station wagon odd man out. It was a relatively inefficient car but still better than an SUV. The SUV is classified as a truck though so from a car company standpoint they're more economical.
So add campaigns and such convinced North America that they wanted SUVs. Did people really want gas guzzling, hard to park, roll over prone, often lower capacity trucks? Probably not. They were forced on the market due to changing environment legislation. R.I.P. station wagon. - pagit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1yes I will be able to get better millage from a diesel, but diesel costs the same of more at times than gasoline.
- HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Some years you can. There will be 2008 VW Diesels in California.
The reason you can't get one is they don't pass emissions. They aren't even held to as tight emissions standards as gas cars and they still cannot pass.
If Diesels can pass the same emissions as gas cars, you'd be able to buy them all the time in California. In 2012, Diesels are supposed to managet this. Maybe I'll get a Diesel then. - HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Shiveyta:
Get a wagon. They can do all that and get better mpg. Your Murano is close to a wagon already. Since a wagon is lighter than an SUV, you have more control over it and shorter stopping distances. It is thus less likely to get in an accident and thus a lot safer.
Or get a minivan, they aren't as good as a wagon on mpg, but they hold far more inside than an SUV. - HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Railroad engines are not hybrids, as they do not have batteries or regenerative braking. But otherwise the method of power transmission is similar to the BMW Mini as you say.
- strictlybogart, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1certified pre-owned perhaps?
- nox327, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1That is the next step.
Read more here
http://benzinsider.com/2006/07/mercedes-to-release-mild-hybrid-in.html - Joske, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1When fuel prices rose 200% in Europe, all the main constructors started producing 4-5l/100km diesels .. Even 3 liter/100km (that's nearly 80 mpg .. Think VW Lupo).
When is this movement going to start in the US? Or does everybody REALLY need their
15mpg deeploader to haul their 2.4 children to soccer practice? - DarkSideofMoon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The efficiency of our vehicles have increased an enormous amount of times in the last century. Unfortunately, many people believe that they need bigger and bigger vehicles as well, so the size of our cars has also increased as well.
While our efficiency has increased, the belief in our needs has decreased. - Robboblob, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1hear hear
- HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I agree filling up at home is great.
But if you live in an apartment, you cannot get a 220V socket installed in your garage (if you even have one), so you can't use an electric car since you can't charge it.
There are lots of reasons it's difficult to get the general public (and not just people with $90K to burn) to buy an electric car.
The reliability thing is a crock. As if electric equipment were 100% reliable and never needed lubrication! - sciencebase, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Diesels seem to be far more popular on continental Europe than in the UK where they have an image of poor performance (promoted by the likes of Richard "Almost Shattered" Hammond on Top Gear (allegedly). Mainland Europeans obviously recognise the better deal: 50+ mpg for a diesel of similar performance as opposed to 30 mpg for the petrol (gasoline) equivalent.
- sathishcj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I would rather that they made serial hybrids out of diesel engines like the the BMW Mini Cooper Hybrid: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/the_hybrid_mini.php - that is the closest thing to putting railroad diesel electric engines into cars (adjusting the power output and size, of course).
- xeno81, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1-Turbo engines are more efficient than naturally aspirated engines. Add a turbo to an engine, and you INCREASE it's efficiency.
-Historically, Diesels have been more reliable, and last longer, than gasoline counterparts.
-Horsepower is simply an equasion/function of Torque over Time. Unless designed to do so, a diesel engine that cannot rev over 5,250rpm will never calculate on a similar scale as horsepower numbers to a gasoline engine. That is aside from Diesels obviously designed to work differently than gasoline engines; It's simply not the way they're set up.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/horsepower.htm
Lastly, and this is only my opinion, while we all love performance (myself especially, a 280hp modified Grand Prix GTP I once had, spoiled me rotten)... I think a lot of people ultimately wouldn't mind sacrificing a little performance for economy. Not the way we've made leaps and bounds in engine efficiency. Vehicle marketing the past few years has made us believe that more power is everything. IF anything, a few cars with somewhat less power wouldn't be so bad, as maybe people on the road wouldn't be as apt to zip around and pull the kinds of stunts on the road that I see.
Just thought I'd throw these in right quick. - jodylemoine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1While it's true that current diesel offerings are fossil fuels, this isn't a necessity. As a matter of fact, the original diesel fuel was peanut oil. Today, diesel (BioDiesel) can be extracted from organic sources such as canola relatively easily.
- Dustyb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@da5idblacksun
Considering the average VW diesel gets 50 mpg, and the next generation diesel is supposed to do 80 mpg, I think a Honda Diesel-Hybrid would be unstopable. 130 mpg anyone? - vorlons, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Winter diesel" has additives to keep it from freezing down to below 0F. These additives like PowerService white bottle are also sold everywhere (Wal Mart, Autozone). That with modern glow plugs solves the "freezing fuel" issues.
As for Biodiesel, it starts to give problems at 40F if you are running 100%, but at lower concentrations it is safe to run in the winter. Here in New England you can by B20 (20% biodiesel / 80% reg diesel) which has the antigel additives in the winter without problems. In colder Canada you would not want to got above B5 (5% bio) in the winter.
I homebrew biodiesel from waste fry oil and run 100% in the summer and this winter will run 20%. - Pharaoh777, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I am strongly considering getting one of those when/if I get back to the States. It sucks that they aren't going to mass produce them though.
- strictlybogart, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1We all know gas prices suck in places like france, but what are the prices for diesel?
- HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1xeno81:
Adding a turbo to a gas engine requires lowering the compression ratio to prevent knocking. Lowering the compression ratio reduces the efficiency of the engine (and the power) axiomatically.
Adding a turbo to a Diesel engine does not require lowering the compression ratio, since Diesels don't have a problem with knocking (it's how they ignite the fuel).
Turbos increase power per liter. Turbos can allow you to use a smaller (and thus lighter) engine to make the same HP and prehaps increase efficency. Turbos can make use of the heat in exhaust gases which would otherwise be wasted.
But overall, turbos usually reduce mpg. Look at any gas car that comes in a turbo and a non-turbo version. Look at the Subarus, etc. The only exception I can think of is the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky. The turbo versions of those cars make a lot more power and better mpg. - nerdofnerds, on 10/12/2007, -0/+187' 300SDL FTW!!! ^_^
Seriously, i'm a big fan if diesel for the simple fact that if need be, it can run off of vegetable oil.
My 300sdl has pretty damn good acceleration (better than my parents' tardmobile SUV) and gets awesome gas mileage.
I think after they drove it a few times I had them talked into a diesel for their next car ^_^ - Hungryhaney, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2We old and behind the times Yuropeans actually buy our cars with trailer hitches and add a little trailer. Costs less than the SUV when buying and since we only use the trailer when needed, gas mileage is great too.
Of course, after seeing the size/weight of the average American, I can see why they need big SUVs. - dreserd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I totally agree... I drive a big truck. Let me tell you why:
1. The chicks dig it. There's no way a hot fake blond in skin tight acid washed jeans would even look at me if I pulled up to the Tastee Freeze in a hybrid Japanese bomb.
2. I have dogs. They need to go everywhere with me otherwise people don't know I have dogs. The grocery store, the hair parlor for my perm, the mall... everywhere!
3. I cannot compensate for my short comings with anything smaller than a full size SUV or Truck.
4. When I do actually need to haul something it comes in handy both of those times a year.
5. There's no way you leftist Pinko bastards are going to tell me what to drive. I'm proud of my ignorance and need to display it prominently.
6. Hopefully the diesel fumes will retard the brain growth of my 47 children enough so I won't have to pay for college.
7. I'm glad to send as much money to the middle east as I can. The money I send there goes to pay for the weapons that have given so many kickbacks to W and Dick. Props to W!
You tree huggers can all go to hell and die! I just clear cut 2 acres in my back yard for a new garage. - rocketryguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Basically it's economics, hybrid is expensive to implement well, but is coming down as it advances. So they're just trying for a smoother transition financially.
That said, I wish they'd just say "damn the torpedos" and get it going asap. We need to get co2 emissions down as much/fast as possible. - HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Wow, just read the article.
That vehicle is not real.
You cannot remove the mechanical brakes from a car. Why? Well, because first of all, because you need to be able to stop faster than you accelerate, and regnerative braking can't do this, it would require removing energy from system faster than the drivetrain is capable of. Second, a generator type system cannot effectively slow a car on its own because the generator produces less electricity the slower you spin the input shaft (wheels). That means it's removing less energy from the system. That means that the slower the car goes, the less braking power it has. At slow speeds of 5-10mph, you have almost no braking power at all. You must use mechanical brakes to finish the job.
Finally, 200-250 miles worth of all-electric range means you need a huge battery pack. The Tesla requires about $50,000 worth of batteries, this vehicle would require a bit more due to higher weight. Ultra capacitors hold even less energy.
In short, this vehicle is fake, and if it were real, you couldn't afford it. - nox327, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1you misunderstood the statement, "but won't cost as much as a normal hybrid", they are saying that it won't cost as much as normal S-class hybrid and not a prius.hybrid. This is only a mild-hybrid that they are talking about.
A Diesel Hybrid has also been promised sometime in the future. -
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