What is Digg?59 Comments
- lynxus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I have some Chinese friends and contrary to popular belief they still like China...the standard of living may be lower, but the cost of living is also much lower. It's also not that hard to believe that the Chinese students would want to see their parents and friends on a regular basis, rather than once every 2 years.
- Aidenag, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14this is what happens when scientists are ignored and called liars by a nations leaders for so long...
- tigro, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8why would they want to go back to china? here they have the freedom to believe what they want, they can make as much money as they want, and they can buy whatever they want, what makes you think these chinese scientests would even want to go back? (of course assuming they had the choice, Immergration and all that)
- datastorageguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I think the point of the article is to explain that 600,000 chinese and Indian engineers do not equate to the equivalent number of engineers graduated in the US.
"they determined that many of the Chinese and Indian degrees are "sub-baccalaureate," awarded to the "equivalent of motor mechanics and industrial technicians."" - rblinne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5If you look at unemployment rates of scientists and engineers the issue has not been whether there is a shortage of scientists and engineers but whether they would get jobs or are underemployed. The article here added some balance to the debate.
There is only one reason why corporations are outsourcing engineering to India and China not shortages of qualified people in the U.S., cost. Even from this narrow perspective this is short sighted. In order to be successful you need to have projects that are self-contained because of the time zone effect. Particularly working with India causes many, many late night phone calls and urgent items take a minimum of 48 hours to get resolved. Corporations are unwilling to spend large capital on their India and China teams so they work with substandard technology and even with broadband the massive file transfers are onerous.
Meanwhile there is huge wage inflation and attrition going on so the competitive advantage is being lessened as we speak. Once the wages finally even out then only those projects that serve the local markets will make sense. At that point, THE MANAGEMENT WILL NEED TO BE OUTSOURCED. Then the little light bulb will go on and the corporations will say, never mind. - datastorageguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Are you for real? People with PHds or even master's degrees working at Fermi lab are making 25k a year? Can you confirm this? It would be a dam shame if it were true.
- mecc, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7It seems that as universities struggle to become more like corporations, the value of actual education drops. Computer science degrees are all but MS office training courses. Research at universities seems to creeping in the direction of becoming centered on commercial interests, as opposed research for research's sake.
- danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yeah same with the guy bagging your grocies at the grocery store. If you think because Bill Gate and Steve Jobs make great money without a college degree they are not important you are in for a rough life.
- raid517, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Scientists should be put up against a wall and shot for treason.
Who needs science when we have GOD to show us the way? - raid517, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I can't belive someone voted me up.
You people are crazy. - politech, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This is indicative of more than just university standards. Primary, Middle and High School math and science scores have been steadily dropping for decades. When a college freshman knows how to make a dream circle but does not know basic algebra, what's a university to do?
- billisdog, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6It's horrendously unfair to say that computer science degrees are all but MS training courses. Maybe at DeVry and ITT Tech, but at any real four-year college, there's no Microsoft anywhere to be found in the CSE department.
- DesiGUY, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4QUOTE: "China's schools graduated more than 600,000 engineers and India's schools produced 350,000, compared with 70,000 in America."
Its all about QUALITY, guys. Im not saying that both INDIA and CHINA doesn't produce QUALITY engineers, they do. But, when the averages are compared, American QUALITY is better.
Being said that, nearly 80% of ALL engineering/computer sciece graduates who graduated from American Univs are foreign born(India nad China makes nearly 80% of that).
Im an Indian. Graduated from an American univ and now working for a large corporatio; making nearly 100Gs.
As long as being GEEK/NERD is considered a joke in the americna school/college system, kids(most of them) will not take up computer science/ engineer courses at the colleges.
Ur opinions, please. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3What happens when you place economic values above knowledge? What happens when hollyweird is idolized? What happens when more people vote for their favorite "idol" than they do the President of the United States?
Is the fact that the state of Science in the US is in such bad shape really such a surprise?
Americans are dumb and don't want to admit it. - satanatnmtedu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3On some level you are correct, Engineers aren't scientists. But, if I obtain a MS or PhD in Engineering I will need to do some pretty pure science. So, I would suggest that those of us that use science (including math) in our work could be considered scientists, especially if we have advanced degrees.
BTW, from my experience, there is no shortage of scientists or even math and science teachers. - mudgod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Not exactly true. Yes its largely about love but if say ones family needs $$$ invariably family comes first. I know multiple PhD professors who loved their work but had to switch to applied fields when they started a family.
- mudgod, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@tigro
A friends friend brilliant IT guy working for an investment bank, lead designer was earning between 150-200k, Indian dude in NYC despite that guess where he lives now ;). Moved back a couple of months ago....
A lot of other people do the same, there are great job opportunities opening up around the world (Ireland, South Korea, India China you name it) and people prefer staying where they grew up with their parents and siblings if they can.
Also the immigration issues arent helping either. Another friend of mine was working here, was on an H1, left the country to get his VISA stamped (exit/re-entry), they took 3+ months for a background check in the meanwhile the company that had sponsored him simply gave up and fired him. He's job hunting globally at the moment... - otterpkt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2An interest rate of 7% is no where near an all time high. 25 years ago the rate was over 15%.
- rblinne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Then call your congressman and ask that they demand that Speaker Hastert appoint a conference committee for immigration reform. Part of the Senate bill includes an increase in H1B quotas.
- hoppdawg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2agree 100%. I really hope arerica isn't ***** in the next 50 years
- brokkena, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Being a scientist has very little to do with economics. I've been in and around higher education for the last 15 years, there's only one thing that makes a scientist, "pure love of science". I've seen graduate students and eat rammen and frozen burritos working 18 hour days for years. Not to get their degree but for the love of the work.
No amount of money can motivate someone who's not in love with science to stare at super collider read outs for years on end, looking for trace anomalies to prove a new theory. As the article points out, high $$$ just weed out those not purely in love with the work. Other countries may make it easier on their students, but in the end only those with the love will actually become scientists. Our system just weeds them out faster. - szelij, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Of course not. The US will always have the advantage because of its reputation...researches flock TO the US to research. It doesn't matter if American scientists decrease, more foreign scientists will be recruited instead.
But ever tightening immigration and labour laws, coupled with protectionism will reduce the numbers of foreign scientists. Already foreign student numbers in the US have dropped, most seeking education elsewhere... - millixaw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Why mod down billisdog? He's correct. I go to a real university and out CS department is all UNIX-based. Granted it's Sun, but we can't be perfect. The only Microsoft is in the Visual Basic course.
DeVry and ITT Tech aren't "research universities" and ITT Tech isn't even a college so much as a glorified trade school. - DBCubix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Yeah I always love it when a college says that they are not for profit. My arse!
- cyberdork, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I just like to point out that this is one of many Seed Magazine articles which made it to the frontpage of digg. I subscribe to this excellent magazine. And I would like to recommend it to anyone working in the academic world.
- rimco, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Maybe if scientists made some damn money, this wouldn't be a problem. I live a half hour from the famous Fermilab, and the average salary for those people is about $25,000/yr. I'd love to be a scientist, but not for that kind of pay.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+7when corporations run this country there is no way american scientists can thrive.
this country is fueled by greed and everyone is only thinking of money and last time i checked, scientists arent making all that much for what they do.
i, for example, want to be a scientist, really really bad. but its just not cost effective. how the hell am i supposed to make money while studying 10 years to get my degree? students gotta eat and live too, ya know? america is ***** up when it comes to education, all these other morons get C's and D's and they get EXCESS in free money from the government, many even buy cars with it,,, but i get straight A's and im struggling to pay my bills,
im leaning towards not even becoming a scientist at all, its just not worth it and the government needs to wake up and realize this before this country is simply a corporate run stage show with all the other countries movin on up and were just dealing with the same ***** as usual: money, scandals, sex, corruption, stupid fights between liberals and conservatives, etc, etc, etc - brdsofprey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2So you're saying the Government should dictate what is really "needed" and what we should be producing. In addition what people should go to school for and how much they should be paid rather than the market setting the rate?
Sounds socialist almost to the point of being communist. - caudron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2An endangered Species? Not even close:
http://tom.digitalelite.com/2006_01_26_20_08_00.html
Tom Caudron - danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2He exagerates a little - 100 - 500K. I graduated with an M.S. Engineering with a whopping $5k in student loans. 100-500k if you buy a boat and a truck to pull it with while you are in school.
Seriously get, a grant, get a scholarship, get a job. The reason why people have such high student loans is because they are spending more time drinking beer then studying or working while in school. They also can not live without their luxuries of an Audi, a Motorcycle, a Big Screen TV, and sweet pad. People who graduate with large amounts of student debt have no one to blame but themselves. Our parents and grandparents got through school working 40 hours a week. - danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Cry me a river.
- Egoist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1So two countries whose populations are floating around 4 billion each have more _____________ graduates than America? Holy newsday, batman!
- lynxus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4our Chinese will beat their Chinese.....what makes the author think that our Chinese won't just go back home to China?
- dbstovall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Actually, I think if you watch college enrollment trends you will find that an upswing in a particular economic field will always lead to an upswing in the related college majors because of the perceived opportunities. I have always had an interest in computers and was totally self taught as a programmer until I sought my CS degree when I enrolled at the university. This was the early 90's. When the Internet bubble started to grow, enrollment in the Mathematical and Physical Sciences College shot up, the largest growth was in students seeking a CS major. When the bubble burst, enrollment plummeted, it is just starting to get back to where it was when I enrolled. The same thing happened at the same university in the mechanical engineering dept. in the late 80's when my brother in law attended. He said that there was a perception that , because of the state of the economy, when you graduated you would have plenty of job opportunities and could pretty much write your own ticket. What happened? Tons of people all over the country sought mechanical engineering degrees. So when they graduated, there was actually a surplus of qualified people. My brother-in-law decided to go to law school and become a patent lawyer instead.
My guess is that right now there are a lot of people entering universities that are considering chemistry, microbiology, and zoology because of the perception that the pharmaceutical, and genetic research industries seem to be ready to explode. - hoppdawg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As a recent ME grad, I know the engineering degree programs need to be majorly overhauled at american public universities.
Their are so many smart people that drop out of engineering degrees their first and second year because the curriculum is so bland and foundational.
Schools have to be ABET accredited, so they all follow the same cookie cutter classes.
My ideal engineering school would have the following:
-two week intensive classes taken in sequence instead of four or five during an 11 week term
-bad ass competitive competitions
-no tenured professors
-requirements that everyone showered
-two internships req'd
-cutting edge term projects
-guinness on tap in the computer labs
-success of the program would be measured by how much money the graduates commanded - DigiNinja, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm pretty sure you got voted up because people assumed you were being sarcastic. Judging by your second comment, they were right.
- danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I agree with everything you said except for the exageration of the numbers. There is no way 80%
- steamynachos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've met quite a few business and "pre-med" majors at my Univ, and no Chemistry or Physics majors. Seems most people have their eyes on the dollar.
- Sarlacc83, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1When i was a college freshman, i had no idea how to draw a dream circle. I've graduated now, and I'm still asking, what is a dream circle?
- rderveloy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Computer science degrees are all but MS office training courses."
Although the CS students at the school I went to could get free Microsoft software, nearly all the CS lab machines were dual boot with Linux as the primary OS in the CS labs. Heavy influence was placed on Java and multi-platform C++ development. - rodan32, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Dude, you need a little perspective. Your comments might work directed at a true fundementalist state like Iran, but if you think that people in the US are burning down the observatories, you need to adjust your tinfoil hat. We've got some real religious wackos, but not to the point that religion is hindering science.
- rderveloy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Too many law, medicine, and business grads.
If engineers and scientitsts would be paid as much as the 3 professions I mentioned above, without having to get a PhD, maybe more people would become them. - rderveloy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"guinness on tap in the computer labs"
As a recent CE grad, I can say, without any doubt, that this is one of the best ideas I've ever heard! - Indoman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0What I've seen from the professional job market is that the standard these days is master degrees and up are required. The national average is most grad's leave college with a loan debt of 100 - 500K depending on field. Most starting base salaries in the corp environment range from 30 to 50K and as of today the Fed's just up'd the interest rate to almost 7%, an all time high. I ask you ... what is wrong with this picture? Are these people suppose to put their life on hold to pay off the debt? No marriage, no kids, no house? Some people really need to correct this problem and quit looking dumb-founded, like they don't understand what the problem is!
I think in general most people are looking for get rich quick schemes, going into the medical field or going into business for themselves (the private sector). Most people aren't stupid and know this ratio doesn't balance therefore they are doing whatever it takes to tip the scales in their favor. - bjflanagan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"i, for example, want to be a scientist, really really bad. but its just not cost effective."
If money means more to you than the thrill of discovery, you weren't cut out to be a scientist.
I edited three volumes of reports for the National Science Teachers Association. Over 60 authors -- from K-12 through college, with students of every background -- found that getting kids involved in hands-on science made a world of difference.
http://store.nsta.org/showItem.asp?product=PB192X4&session=1C1A3E6E4BD245B88A2C1A005E3EA379 - analyticbeing, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I will be a sophomore at an engineering school in NYC in the fall. I want to major in physics, but money is the problem. The school I'm going to now is FREE, whereas all the ivy leagues are on the order of tens of thousands of dollars. It seems like everyone's got their eyes on money. Alot of my friends are going through really tough courses, actually, sleeping through them, just so they can get a better job and make more money. That's the American Way. As for me, I know America has a good reputation for research, but I have my sights on other countries. Yes, it has come to that point.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0More endangered if they mistake the inches for centimeters
- merper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Sure you're not referring to post-docs? Not exactly the same thing as real research scientists.
- loftwyr, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4This article talks a great deal about the number of engineers graduating. Engineers aren't scientists.
Why not talk about the fundamentalist movement in America that makes science unwanted and the difficulty to get funding for any science that the government doesn't like? - jdiggans, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"want to be a scientist, really really bad."
Grammar would be a good first start. As for not being able to make money in science without ten years' worth of effort, that is simply preposterous (I work in science). -
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