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- Jagula, on 10/11/2007, -15/+355“There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes”
-James Morrow - DrBudro, on 10/11/2007, -6/+229"There are no atheist suicide bombers"
- FortyCaliber, on 10/11/2007, -10/+202I had "Atheist" on my dog tags. My Senior DI yelled at me for being "A ***** ATHEIST!"
Too ***** bad. I don't need a crutch to know why I'm doing something. I do something because I chose to do so.
I had one of those Darwin Fish on the back of my truck while I was at Pendleton and I found some sort of flyer uner my wipers "advertising" how I should be "saved." I was the only car in the lot with that flyer on it.
I took it into the Chaplain's office just to notify him that someone was littering the lot with religious propaganda and paraphenalia. When I got into his office I noticed a stack of them, freshly copied and cut, on his desk. I asked him about it and he proceeded to assault me with rhetoric about serving "God and Country" and the "Will of the Christian Nation." I then decided to also notify him that I was an Atheist and that did not need "saving" and that I served my comrades and my country, in that order and no one else. I also told him that if he wished to continue to push the matter by littering my car with propaganda and attempting to convince me that my beliefs were wrong, then I would be forced to ensure that my ENTIRE chain of command knew that I felt that was being persecuted for my lack of religious beliefs by my unit's over-zealous Chaplain.
He took the flyer back.
I received no apology as I left.
He reported me as being "disrespectful towards a superior officer." I explained the situation to my Battalion Commander.
The Chaplain transfered soon thereafter. - erikwithaknotac, on 10/11/2007, -16/+187As a Marine and an atheist, that hit home.
- montiff, on 10/11/2007, -14/+165Sorry for my blog spam. But the original host took down the letter.
And I felt it was far too important of a response not to be seen again. - OneHine, on 10/11/2007, -15/+137Does anyone else find it interesting that far-right extremists keep claiming that they love the troops, that they love American, and that anyone who disagrees with them must be in league with the terrorists...yet when push comes to shove these are the same people who don't hesitate to insult war veterans and who don't think twice about opposing freedom of religion, one of America's founding principles?
As they say, talk is cheap. Perhaps our "liberal" media should focus on this discrepancy for once. - montiff, on 10/11/2007, -12/+134Thanks for your service and support man.
- AnteChronos, on 10/11/2007, -4/+111@mikesbaker
"my previous def of agnostic is a simplification of my views of the agnostic. which is if you believe that you can't know god you still believe that there is a god."
That's fairly close, but agnosticism says nothing about one's belief in god. It only addresses whether one considers that belief a belief, or a fact. Agnosticism and atheism are actually two independent measures.
Agnostic = without special knowledge
Gnostic = with special knowledge
Atheist = does not believe in god(s)
Theist = believes in god(s)
So an agnostic atheist (which I consider myself to be), doesn't believe in god, but also doesn't claim that god absolutely does not exist (i.e. we have no "special knowledge" about the existence of god. He/she/it is just non-existent by default, like unicorns and the tooth fairy). Compare that to a gnostic atheist, who claims that god positively does not exist, usually as a result of some sort of logical (dis)proof.
On the other end are agnostic and gnostic theists. Agnostic theists believe in god, but don't claim that they can prove that he/she/it exists. Most sane Christians fall into this category. Faith is considered a virtue, and faith doesn't need proof. Then you have the gnostic theists, who claim that things like the complexity of the eye, or the perfect values of various universal constants, prove that there is a god. To them, it's not a matter of faith, but a matter of fact, which they're more than happy to point out at every opportunity. - pawperso, on 10/11/2007, -2/+106I'm an atheist, and iraq veteran, when I first came under fire I was crapping myself, but I certainly didnt turn to god. I did turn to my radio op and get him to bring in the air cover, thats my kinda salvation.
- tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -11/+85Don't listen to anyone who says that there are no atheists in foxholes. It's *****. And thanks for protecting us. We really do appreciate it.
- tech42er, on 10/11/2007, -16/+89No problem. It really needs to be seen; it's a great response.
- rodrigo74, on 10/11/2007, -1/+67That reminds me another quote:
"With or without (religion) you would have good people doing good things
and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil
things, that takes religion."
--Physicist and Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg - montiff, on 10/11/2007, -12/+75Well for starters when someone with an outlet as large as the Nghtly News saws some idiotic cliche ***** I think it is a big deal.
- FortyCaliber, on 10/11/2007, -5/+61Atheists are "put upon."
So many Atheists neglect to mention that they are in public company for fear of being seen as a "bad person." I lost a friend when he found out I was an Atheist. He was simply to pious to believe he could be friends with someone who was an atheist. He even neglected to remember the good times we had before that.
I have a friend that was refused a contract re-negotiation at his job because they found out he was atheist.
Oh well. I suppose being socially persecuted isn't REALLY being "put-upon." - ickarus, on 10/11/2007, -19/+73When you think about it, this comment might be more offensive to theists than anyone else. The idea set forth here is that in life or death (extreme) situations, people will believe in a supernatural being (a god).
Well, if a god is so implausible that it takes a life or death situation for a logical person to entertain the idea... Maybe atheists aren't the ones who should be getting offended...
/rabidly anti-theist - SurrealDream, on 10/11/2007, -1/+53@MrFlesh : Don't come up with such asinine arguments, it's embarrassing for all of us.
- joebus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+51Also, this would receive national attention if the same thing happened, but you said, "There are no Christians in Foxholes." Katie would also, most likely get fired from such a comment.
- Urusai, on 10/11/2007, -2/+49That's because nobody will promise us 77 virgins BEFORE we blow ourselves up.
- DrBudro, on 10/11/2007, -0/+46Kamikaze (Japanese: 神風; literally: "god wind")
The state religion of Japan in WWII was Shinto, and the Emperor ordering them to be Kamikazes was regarded as a divine ruler... - fucayama, on 10/11/2007, -0/+46@moldelcadet
Not to take anything away from your point but technically the kamikaze pilots were supposed to regard Hirohito as a deity, technically. - atticus8, on 10/11/2007, -2/+46I love it how you will accept someone's atheism as long as they have a "good reason". Apparently, believing in an invisible force that creates all earth's life and then drowns it all in a flood, and believing in your personal ability to influence the physical laws of our universe (you know, the "power" of prayer), is something so downright logical and obvious that no proof is necessary. But you now need a "good reason" to not believe in some entity for which there is not and never has been any credible evidence of any kind. Ever. Call a spade a spade, but only if you can produce a good reason to do so.
Equally precious is your categorization of having a hard life as being a good enough reason to be atheist. In your very next sentence after you mention this, you point out that having a hard or easy life has nothing to do with theism's validity. Somehow, you can't see that the same obvious truth applies to atheism. Do you really know people in real life that actually make their theological decision in the manner you seem to think they do in your head? Is it really that one guy has a hard knock life and goes "Hey, my life is hard and the world is hard. I'm atheist now!", while another guy, a rich, healthy, handsome guy across town grows up and goes "My life has always been satisfying and happy, so thus Jesus is the only begotten son of Our Lord God who rules in Heaven!" I know in asking these questions I'm being the typical atheist downer that actually asks for evidence, but I happen to believe that having evidence for your beliefs is a beneficial thing. And unlike other beliefs I could mention, I have proof for this.
It might sound from this rant that I want to dislike you personally, but I don't, because you don't sound at all like an *****. You're probably a fine guy to have a beer with. My real concern is this: your attitude toward the atheist community is infused with a profound condescension, and yet, mind-bogglingly, you seem to sense no trace of it at all. This all-too-common phenomenon drives athiests (almost everywhere a vastly outnumbered minority) to be constantly, casually, and arrogantly dismissed for even the most common-sensical of our "beliefs". For instance, you can probably tell I've just about had it with those that make me feel as if asking for evidence for beliefs is a ludicrous idea. It eventually strains your nerves and not all of us can be all cool and calm like Jesus. Not even Jesus was like Jesus. I could prove it to you if only we had more reliable evidence.
PS It seems that while I was writing this others have made many of my same points. It's nice to have some support somewhere, Digg is like fresh air. - rnwen2750, on 10/11/2007, -6/+47Agreed, but why in Science?
- sibhod, on 10/11/2007, -1/+40i'm afraid you've mixed up the burden of proof here. i don't have to tell you why there's no god any more that i have to tell you why there's no invisible unicorn in your room. try giving me proof of god that can be observed and tested, not the warm fuzzies you get, or the statistically obvious coincidences.
for every shaky atheist you give me i can give you fifty religious knuckle-draggers who think evolution is a liberal conspiracy by the evil intellectuals, descendants of the heretics who dare propose that god's favorite planet wasn't the center of the universe; the same lot that thinks bush is the best president even because he namedrop's their preferred deity. - Comatose51, on 10/11/2007, -1/+38@modelcadet: You might want to research Shintoism and how that religion is intertwined with Japanese nationalism. To say that the kamikaze pilots were atheists is just idiotic. Furthermore, it's one thing to be a kamikaze pilot ramming your plane into the military of an enemy and another to strap explosives to yourself and target civilians. Kamikaze pilots are not considered terrorists.
As for your remark about nationalism being the drive behind suicide bombers, again, you're quite wrong. The Middle East and Arab nations went through a phase of pan-Arab nationalism that saw the rise of the Baath party in Syria and Iraq. Egypt was the leader in this movement but they were eventually all defeated by Israel. The failure of that movement marked the rise of radical Islam, suicide bombers, and organizations such as Hamas. Before that, there were terrorists but few suicide bombers. Regardless, if you claim that Hamas, Hezbollah, or even the PLO are atheists, you're going to be laughed at. - EochaidRiata, on 10/11/2007, -0/+36This is just a transcript. If you listen to the audio he clearly says 'bronze'.
- ShaneApex, on 10/11/2007, -22/+56This response from the General will fall upon deaf ears. It does not conform with what the media wants to portray.
- ClunkClunk, on 10/11/2007, -1/+33Brown stars are what I'd make in my underwear in a foxhole, not become a theist.
- HollisJamison, on 10/11/2007, -4/+35Dugg, dugg, and dugg. Best comment in the thread.
- Forestmb, on 10/11/2007, -10/+40On the April 5, 2006, broadcast of the Today Show television show, in a segment about God, America & War, Katie Couric said, "Perhaps you have heard the expression, 'There are no Atheists in foxholes,' and the men who have occupied the oval office have also turned to a higher power." American Atheists has demanded a clarification and apology.
That's all the wiki page/the source said. Sounds to me that in a segment relating God and War, Couric asked a guest if he had heard a popular saying that related God and War. NO! MAN THE HARPOONS, SHE IS INFRINGING ON OUR ATHEISM. - ickarus, on 10/11/2007, -4/+33... What? Apparently having a hard life is a good reason for being an atheist?
As an atheist that favours logic and scientific method over personal anecdotes or pity parties, I can say that having a hard life is no more "proof" of atheism than having a good life is "proof" of theism.
Besides, it's not up to you to decide whether or not someone's reason for not believing in supernatural mumbo jumbo is good enough. As much as I wish you were, I'll bet you're not challenged at every corner to recite the teleological argument for God's existence. - SultanTravi, on 10/11/2007, -19/+45@montiff
I wouldn't call this blog spam. You put approximately one line of text above the letter.
Thank you for not writing 2,000 words on the subject before it.
PS - that letter was amazing and eye opening. - squenix1221, on 10/11/2007, -4/+29Wasn't this one of the quotes they show when you die in COD2?
- EochaidRiata, on 10/11/2007, -8/+31This occurred in April 2006.
http://www.atheists.org/action/alert-05-apr-2006.html
This letter is a transcript from a podcast over a year ago: http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?referrerid=101011&t=434191 - MinorLemming, on 10/11/2007, -0/+21Ahhh... Long life through superior firepower - the only _sensible_ reaction to a foxhole :)
- Murdats, on 10/11/2007, -6/+27@mikesbaker
uh, go look up the definition of agnostic - Septimus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+20No, I think you have that the wrong way around.
I want a damn good reason and proof why I should believe in your invisible friend. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -6/+25I'm a Christian and I've never posted or said that because I'm not a boarish person.
- nonsapiens, on 10/11/2007, -5/+24A Christian whining about atheists whining about Katie Couric?
LAME. - WebCester, on 10/11/2007, -0/+19Actually I think it was this one (posted by Jagula above):
“There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes”
-James Morrow
I always liked the messages in COD2. "There is nothing more exhilarating in life than being shot at without result." comes to mind. - vvargoal, on 10/11/2007, -21/+40Oh settle down. The saying isn't meant to be taken literally. It expresses innate the human need to find something, anything, to grab hold of when they fear for their lives. It's not a statement of godlessness, it's a statement of psychology. People should stop being so damn touchy.
- DavidDigg, on 10/11/2007, -0/+19Here is what I want to know: when did the Christian "war on atheists" begin? Last time I checked, Christian dogma was emphatic and unequivocal in the attitude Christians ought to have towards non-believers: patience, generosity, and empathy. There were of course aberrations---the Inquisition comes to mind---I think we are now in the middle of another inquisition. The Church has allowed some very evil people to pretend to be true Christians who know nothing of spreading the word of God. Jerry Falwell comes to mind.
- Isgall, on 10/11/2007, -0/+17If fear can cause you to believe then you believed all along. As much as people would like you to believe atheists are cowards, because they don't have heaven to look forward to, it's all *****. When the ***** hits the fan we'll stand up as well as any of the religious lot but we do it, not because some god says so, but because we know it is the right thing to do. Of all the people I've ever met Atheists, Hindu's, and Buddhists are the most morally grounded. Because above all else those belief sets or the lack there of are based on a learned sense of right and wrong not an indoctrination. You can call me a lot of things and I won't care, but call me a coward or an idiot and I'll take offense.
- Buckiller, on 10/11/2007, -0/+17There has always been a war against atheists in civilizations... it has highs and lows of course.
On a side note... I had no idea so many people were atheist until i joined digg. I live in the South... and id say about 90% of the population is Christian... - gordonj, on 10/11/2007, -2/+18There are no Katie Couric's in foxholes.
- jr1480, on 10/11/2007, -16/+32ditto
- SurrealDream, on 10/11/2007, -2/+17It's implying that, when a person is under the threat of death or extreme stress, they will find their faith in god. Thus, there are no atheists in foxholes, because all men/women in foxholes have discovered god due to their horrific circumstances.
- inactive, on 10/14/2007, -3/+18Any NON-atheists in foxholes care to remember - "Thou shalt not kill"???
- Comatose51, on 10/11/2007, -0/+14@surrealdream: And likewise many people have lost faith in God when they saw the horror of war. They couldn't reconcile a good and loving God with the harsh realities of war. Eli Wiesel[sp?], the son of a Jewish Rabbi, lost his faith in God when he was in the Holocaust death camps. Some people find strength in religion and spirituality and some don't. To imply that everyone does is insulting to those who serve our armed forces. Our soldiers fight for their country and their comrades. American soldiers are not crusaders. We don't kill people in the name of God or not suppose to anyways.
- mjl5629, on 10/11/2007, -3/+17I was in a "foxhole". I was an Atheits then and I am even more of an Atheist now.
- srothman, on 10/11/2007, -1/+14That was powerful.. I'm an atheist who served in the ARMY. Luckily I never saw combat, but even so I hate that expression, but certainly not as much as an atheist war veteran must.
-
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