What is Digg?42 Comments
- gandre, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Damn, by the title I thought I was gonna get to see some pretty images that would cheer me up
- Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Sadly, way too expensive IMO. The cheapest way still seems to be to stuff people with pills, sadly.
- BluParadox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7You dont have to whine to cut yourself... Lots of people do it without telling anyone. Sure, some people do it to get attention or sympathy, but there are other reasons people do it as well. Self-hatred, a desire for some sort of control (even if only just a little), a need to feel something "real", and as a distraction from emotional pain are some other reasons that come to mind. That said, it's definately not a smart thing to be doing, lol.
Also, I beleive most manic-depressives do the majority of their artwork while in their manic state. Lots of artists are depressed, but I dont think it has much to do with their creative talent. - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5The thing is, see also the article, that CBT doesn't work with over 50% of the people who are depressive. Furthermore, CBT is therapy, meaning that it depends a lot on the person giving it, and the person receiving it. It's like getting a haircut. One hairdresser makes you look good, the other does a bad job.
There is no "one CBT" that fits all so to speak, even though giving it a name suggests different.
The problem is that once one person gets CBT the person self, but also the people who are close to this person assumes that everything is fixed soon. In some cases (roughly 50%) this is eventually going to happen. In other cases (roughly 50%) this is not going to happen. Meaning that the person goes to therapy, everybody has high expectations, and nothing happens (or too little). After a few months it is decided that the person is not cooperating with therapy, lazy, or gets the diagnosis borderline personality disorder. The thing is, that the people close to this person somehow decide that the therapist is right, and the person receiving the therapy is wrong, resulting in more stress for the depressed person.
The thing is, medication has about the same effect as therapy: roughly 50%. For some people neither works.
I think it's an excellent idea if at a very early stage can be determinded if CBT is going to help or not, if medication is going to help or not, etc. Using the wrong thing for many months makes things worse, a lot. Also one loses the trust of friends and family, or worse. - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Yes, a long time ago I considered suicide, but most people have probably been in a situation like that at some point in their lives."
Some people (like me) get those thoughts extremely often, even when their live is ok. The thoughts just pop up in their head, often at very unexpected moments. Or at least I often can't explain why I have those feelings, and yet they are extremely strong.
"I simply realized that the world is much bigger then myself and my problems, and several people are far worse off then myself and handle it a lot better then I was."
So you already discovered that we are not all created equal. Good. Since everybody copes different by what happens. Depression can be inherited, and how can you "get over" something you inherited? Like I already explained: you're probably not an olympic swimmer. You might never be able to become one. Are you weak? Lazy? Or have you just *your own* limitations?
"I will agree with you that some people probably do lack the capability of helping themselves,"
Thanks, and be happy, since that is a good beginning on a long road to understanding. You probably also need help now and then. Some people need more then others, often because they have limits.
If people cut just for attention, look at your cutter friend. How much attention did she/he get? How long did it last? My experience is that people are indeed there with help and attention when you're depressed. However, when you start to hurt yourself in a bad way, you will get less and less attention. If you think cutting is about getting attention you can't be more mistaken. It's just an opinion you formed, probably based on your experience with a friend. Maybe you should read what professional researchers think about cutting. Currently it is thought that there is a very thin line between cutting and suicide. With which I agree. Mind, I don't say that all people who cut are suicidal. But calling all cutters attention seekers is a stupid mistake, and certainly not supported by science.
If you have no personal experience with cutting, it's very hard to understand. Most people hide the fact that they do it. If you look around in your class (I assume you're still in school), you might probably know one cutter, but in your class there might be 5 or more. And not all cut themselves, some people hurt themselves in different ways.
The question "why?" can't be answered by "they want attention", also since a lot of people who do harm themselves have plenty of other ways to get attention, and real and better attention. There isn't even an easy answer to the question why. If you really want to learn more instead of just repeating what the masses yell, there are plenty of good books out there.
"but unlike you, I believe they are the minority and most just want attention."
Unlike you I don't believe. I have read plenty of research papers and good books on the subject.
"I could be wrong, there's no way to get good facts in that situation,"
Yes, that's an easy way out. There are a lot of good books on self harm. And plenty of people who do or did self harm which clearly contradict your assumption of "most do it for attention". - solargroovy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Short but interesting and dugg for non-fanboy content
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Okay, article was way short and those linky-window things that popped up when you put your cursor over them sucked. Still semi-interesting.
- Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"and as a distraction from emotional pain are some other reasons that come to mind."
Other reasons for cutting: avoiding worse things from happening like suicide attempt, or losing contact with your body (dissociation/psychosis).
"That said, it's definately not a smart thing to be doing, lol."
If it prevents one from doing worse things (like a suicide attempt), it's a very smart thing to do. Note that self harm releases endorfine and calms a person down. It's in fact a tranquilizer but probably more effective. And since it works, one can get quite addicted to it. The think is, it's often an answer to something that science hasn't have a good answer to yet, or isn't available at that time. People don't start cutting just because, it happens because they have often no other option at a specific moment.
"Also, I beleive most manic-depressives do the majority of their artwork while in their manic state."
No, I think not. The thing is, in a manic state one has often a zillion ideas, but can't complete any of them. It is possible to get ideas during the manic state, and start things, but the thing with manic is, that it all looks too good to be real, and there are so many of those extremely good ideas.
"Lots of artists are depressed, but I dont think it has much to do with their creative talent."
Touched by Fire is quite a good book to read regarding this. Depression is not just feeling *****, and crying in a corner, not being able to do a single thing for a long, long time. Depression has ups and downs in my experience. One can do quite some things while depressed. I wrote some poetry while I was depressed (not saying it is good or what), so creativity doesn't stop when depressed, nor do I think it's less. Moreover, my experience is that depression teaches one a lot about life, friends, relationships, etc. Things I didn't think about when I was feeling ok, and had no significant problems at all. - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"with all the psychology mumbo-jumbo you know, haplo, I would think you'd have realized that your keystrokes are going to waste trying to argue on the internet."
There are always people who read my keystrokes. You just did, but it was beyond you ;-) - fuckingstudent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3.... or for one thousanth of the cost you could get them to actually see the cognitive therapist and ask the therapist who will respond to intervention. Shame they didn't state which bit of the cortex was involved.
- moderntimes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Researchers found that compared to controls, nine of the participants with depression had decreased activity in a region of the brain called the subgenual cingulate cortex after they read negative words. Of those nine, seven recovered from their depressive symptoms after CBT. Only one of the five participants with depression who did not demonstrate decreased activity in the subgenual cingulate cortex recovered after CBT. Better recovery also was associated with increased activity after reading negative words in a brain region called the amygdala.
“The amygdala helps us to recognize things as being emotional. In some people with depression, the amygdala doesn’t turn off as fast as it should after it recognizes something as being negative. The subgenual cingulate cortex regulates emotions and plays a part in turning the amygdala on and off,” said Dr. Siegle. “If the amygdala doesn’t get ‘turned off’ in a person with depression, when exposed to negative information, the person may ruminate, going over this information again and again. Cognitive behavioral therapy teaches people techniques to stop this rumination, so it makes sense that it would be a good treatment option for those people who can’t turn off their amygdala,” said Dr. Siegle. "
via
http://newsbureau.upmc.com/Medsurg3/BrainImaging.htm - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"I dated a cutter for awhile, and I don't feel any sympathy for people like that. Just because I don't see things your way doesn't make me clueless,"
If your not able to feel sympathy for people because you don't consider them at your level, you *are* clueless. Are you an olympic swim champion? Why not? Are you a millionair? Why not? You are hopefully smart enough to understand that *you* have limitations. Why can't you understand that other people have limitations as well?
Can you understand that not everybody can go to university and get a good degree?
"I've been abused and stuff growing up,"
Everybody is different. Some people can handle it, others can't. Some people can walk an hour extremely fast without ever getting tired. Others are never able to do such a thing. Are the latter weaklings? Grow up.
"and I'm not going to sit around feeling sorry for myself and whining about it."
So you really have no clue about selfharm. There are plenty of good books about it. Like I said, there are people who indeed harm themselves to get attention, or as you call it "Whine about it". But there are plenty of people who harm themself but will never tell you. They have a very big and real problem. Mind, I am not saying that people who do talk about it are all whiners or don't have a problem, but if it was just because they want attention, why don't they all whine about it? The group of people that selfharm and are whiners is likely very small. But that is probably beyond you. Have you ever been in a situation that the only option to you was hurt yourself, or even kill yourself? If you have, you probably feel ashamed of it (because of peer pressure), and maybe even you tried to talk to someone about it, and was called a whiner, and if you can't beat them, join them, no?
If you have, think back: was it really that easy to do something else? I guess the answer is no.
If you haven't: ok, you have no experience, yet you have formed an opinion because you dated a "cutter". Let's hope that you learn a lot more in life.
Selfharm is a very complicated subject. You're not helping anyone with grouping all under whiners, and yes, that makes you clueless. Like some people can't do university because they are lazy doesn't mean that everybody who doesn't go to university is lazy. - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"but I think that not cutting or killing yourself is an extremely reasonable acheivement."
For you, yes. For other people it isn't. And no, that has nothing to do with being lazy. Like I already wrote, I have at unexpected, quite random moments strong suicidal feelings. I don't know why I have those. I do know that it's a feeling, and it goes away in a short time. I never worried about it very much, until my live changed a big deal, and those suicidal feelings got extremely strong.
Attention seeking? Come on, even in therapy (at least the one I got) there is a huge taboo on suicidal feelings and self harm. That are *professionals*. Imagine how friends and family react when they have to bring you again to the hospital. The first time they want to help, the second time they are getting the message (well, yours that is), and the third time it gets annoying. If you want to get rid of friends, loved ones, and even family, become depressed, especially depressed with selfharm, and not reacting to medicines nor therapy.
"I never claimed that my opinion was the better answer, or any answer at all, I stated before that it is just my opinion."
Some opinions have a bad foundation. With just a little research you could have found out that your opinion is as good as "in my opninion the tooth fairy exists". The sad thing is, that your opinion hurts a lot of people, and strengthens the "opionions" of people. How do you think it is for someone who has a serious problem: he/she cuts himself, and can't stop? He/she wants to stop, not attention (person wears long sleaves, even in the summer when it's extremely hot) but can't go to someone for help, because the general opinion is that self harm is "just" attention seeking?
Congratulations on your 20th Century Fox deal. You have worked hard for it, at least that's what I get. But you're probably aware (or will one day) that not everybody working hard, or as hard as you do, get what he/she wants. No matter how hard one works, or desires it. Like I said, the argementation you use is a common one: either people say: if you want it you can do it (but I haven't done it, because I don't want it), or if you want it, you can do it, look, I did it. I thought the latter when it turned out that university was a piece of cake for me. But soon I learned that if something is a piece of cake for me, it doesn't mean it's for everyone a piece of cake, not even that it's within reach of someone else. - jhoderd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I mentioned this before, but it is always worth mentioning it again.
Stress and depression go hand in hand. Chronic lack of sleep and
putting too much strain on your brain lead (on the long term) to
depression. Knowing this is the first step towards treatment.
There's a nice wikibook which explains it all:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Demystifying_Depression - Petronski, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Bravo Haplo for making great sense and taking the time to reply to these silly posts.
- Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3stress and depression might very well go hand in hand. However, that doesn't mean that there is always an easy answer. Some stress can not be avoided, and not everybody can handle the same level of stress the same way.
Also, that stress and lack of sleep leads to depression doesn't mean that reducing stress and making someone sleep good removes the depression. Some forms of depression are caused by a malfunctioning in the body.
A depression might slowly creep into ones life (years), and hence can often take a long, long time to go away (read again years).
And thanks for the link, I am certainly going to read it. - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"The difference between you and me, using your swimming analogy, is that I believe that if I wanted to be an olympic swimmer that I could be. You believe that some people have it in them, while others don't. If you truly want something bad enough, you can get there."
And you also believe in the toothfairy. Come on. Most people I hear saying those things have a normal boring life. They are no movie stars, they are not in the olympics, they are not rich. Most of them haven't done a thing that makes them special. A lot even don't have a grade. Yet they claim that if you want it bad enough, you can get it. Yet they don't have it, *shrugs*.
It's like saying: I know a system that always makes me win lottery. But I am not going to use it, because it's not fair.
"As far as you reading more books on the matter, that doesn't mean much to me. The science behind this stuff is shaky at best."
So in short, the stuff you feel and believe is the better answer, especially some scientist have in the past been able to fool people.
As for the rest, you seem to prefer to stay ignorant. Good luck with that. - Petronski, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Haplo wrote: There are always people who read my keystrokes.
Yes, and the person or people who might benefit from what you've written will likely never let anyone know that you've helped them just by leaving these educational messages. But having read what you've written, they will investigate more, and might even seek help. That's why I applauded your posts above. - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5So you really have no clue, *shrugs* not that I really expected any from you. Your fanboys probably will digg this down, but they are at your level so I guess that's "more creative".
Oh, and for your information, quite a lot of extremely creative people are depressive. If you are able to read, check out: "Touched with Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament" By Kay Redfield Jamison (yes, I know that name doesn't ring a bell with you, but you're clueless). - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Is a thing that helps in deciding which tool to use for a job not a tool in itself for helping the job done?
I say yes :-) - clownguyx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Once again, we have differing opinions. I remember being in high school and seeing all the kids that I thought would amount to something and those that wouldn't because they weren't very smart, at least in my eyes. Some of those kids are more successful then I would have ever imagined just because they probably wanted to prove people like me wrong. It's inspiring to see people like that. It's harder for those kids, but not impossible. Look at that kid with autism that scored like 20 points or something in the fourth quarter of that high school game, that's inspiring.
I think that people, like yourself, lack a true role model or real inspiration in life. Do they want to get better? I'd guess so, but probably just not bad enough, or they haven't found the right motivation. However, me feeling sorry for them won't fix anything.
As far as joking about it, if you can't laugh at something then what is the point? For me, it's all about the humor in everything, and if people find it offensive it just makes it funnier in my eyes. I have my limits, but it holds true about 95% of the time. - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"As far as joking about it, if you can't laugh at something then what is the point? For me, it's all about the humor in everything, and if people find it offensive it just makes it funnier in my eyes."
I had just a peek at your site, well, if the one in your profile is yours that is (I guess yes, since it somehow goes with your writing style). It clarified a lot, good luck to you. - clownguyx, on 10/12/2007, -10/+11Nope...I'm more creative then that. People that cut themselves are unoriginal. We've all been depressed teenagers, some just aren't as whiny as others about it.
- Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I wrote down my points of view a bit better (I hope) http://johnbokma.com/mexit/2006/04/03/selfharm-depression-ignorance.html
- Petronski, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Great link. Thanks.
- Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2thanks petronski :-)
And yes, some will read more. And some on the "other side" of the problem might feel a bit better when they hear something else then the easy cheap "cutters are whiners". A lot of people who do selfharm really want an alternative. Attention obtained by selfharm lasts less then the "5 minutes on fame" cliche. - clownguyx, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2No, I have never cut myself. Yes, a long time ago I considered suicide, but most people have probably been in a situation like that at some point in their lives. However, I did not use the "join them" mentality you are implying. I simply realized that the world is much bigger then myself and my problems, and several people are far worse off then myself and handle it a lot better then I was.
I will agree with you that some people probably do lack the capability of helping themselves, but unlike you, I believe they are the minority and most just want attention. I could be wrong, there's no way to get good facts in that situation, it's mostly speculative. - Lady_Phoenix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1same here, ah well....
- spdude, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0That indeed is great news but i dont know why everyone here is calling Depression a disease?????
It is NOT a disease it is a condition or disorder but you cant call it disease
I am wondering if it can help manic depression or bipolar people?
http://www.depressiontopics.com/manic-depression-bipolar.php - forger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Depression can be overcome by keeping yourself BUSY doing ANYTHING that will keep your mind off things. That inhibits the amygdala of the brain, which is the main area/part of the brain specialized for emotions, since it's a part of the lymbic system. Yet it's a good article, I digg it.
- ecksman321, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1likewise
- sert, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2with all the psychology mumbo-jumbo you know, haplo, I would think you'd have realized that your keystrokes are going to waste trying to argue on the internet.
- clownguyx, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I don't have the willpower to be a swimmer, so I am not one. I do enjoy writing though, and I spent a lot of years on it and now I have a deal with 20th Century Fox. It wasn't handed to me. I put forth a lot of effort to get someone to take note of what I had written and they finally did, now I'm heading in the direction I want. It's not an easy thing to do, but I did it and I still have a long way to go. I'm not sitting down and crying about it and saying it's too hard and I can't do it. The victory is much sweeter when it's earned and worked for and not just handed to you. Now you obviously can't acheive anything and everything, you have to be reasonable, but I think that not cutting or killing yourself is an extremely reasonable acheivement.
I never claimed that my opinion was the better answer, or any answer at all, I stated before that it is just my opinion. - ErikKrupper, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1where was the content in this post?
- quadvods, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0"Being able to predict who will respond to cognitive behavior therapy, and who will not, may prove to be a valuable tool for treating depression"
Hmm.. being able to see who will respond and who won't is NOT a tool in itself for treating depression.. it is just something that will save time and money. - Lionhart, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Maybe they should just cry more. Depressed people piss me off.
- gbguy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0I just listen to the Brain Hack portion of this podcast when Im depressed:
www.greenbush.org/take2 - clownguyx, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1I can't look around my classroom, because I've been out of school for quite some time. The difference between you and me, using your swimming analogy, is that I believe that if I wanted to be an olympic swimmer that I could be. You believe that some people have it in them, while others don't. If you truly want something bad enough, you can get there.
As far as you reading more books on the matter, that doesn't mean much to me. The science behind this stuff is shaky at best. You just know more about other people's opinions then I do. Just because it's in print doesn't make it fact. L Ron Hubbard has plenty of books out and the guy was a total quack and con-artist.
I don't have the numbers, but I bet you the suicide rate has risen in the last 100 years or so because our society makes it ok to fall victem to your own emotional demons. People need to toughen up.
As Tony Soprano might say, "What ever happened to Gary Cooper? The strong silent type." Probably bad to quote a fictional character talking about another fictional character, but seems fitting to me. - clownguyx, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1I dated a cutter for awhile, and I don't feel any sympathy for people like that. Just because I don't see things your way doesn't make me clueless, it means I have a differing opinion then yours. I've been abused and stuff growing up, and I'm not going to sit around feeling sorry for myself and whining about it. People like that need to get over yourselves, it happens to a lot of people all the time. It's sad, but that's the world we live in right now, get over it.
- clownguyx, on 10/12/2007, -15/+10Why is this information not completely ready now? I hate this world. Where's my cutting blade?
- Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -19/+6OMG, lolzz, ur so funny, not.
Have you ever cut yourself, or know persons who do so? I mean, not because you think you're a cool goth, and want to look cool? But really, because you had no other way to express how ***** you felt? I guess not.
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