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49 Comments
- feoren, on 05/30/2009, -4/+27But . . . but . . . if I actually become educated about stem cells, I won't be able to justify to myself shouting nonsense and distorted truths about them to serve my own selfish agenda and impose my superstitious will upon others!
- enevitable, on 05/30/2009, -1/+10The problem with embryonic stem cells is the misconceptions of them. Currently all extra embryos used in IVF are thrown away after when they are no longer needed, with exception of few frozen as back ups. So instead of throwing unneeded embryos away, scientists want to use them.
So the problem is entirely morals, and lack of education on the subject. Do we want to throw away as many as we do now, or open up the slippery slope to where we will start producing a lot more embryos then we need and develop them to save lives. The problem when we use emotionally charged arguments is that it blocks us from thinking of the whole picture.
I also strongly disagree with the life starts at conception argument, I'm more of a wait until the fetus is actually developed person. The biggest miss though, is that fetus/embryos should have the same rights as a someone living. Just because one day we too will become a corpse, does not mean that we have the rights of a corpse. - ButterLoyalist, on 05/30/2009, -1/+8How is stemm cell formed?
- jhbarr, on 05/30/2009, -0/+7When the Pope gets a PhD in a science field, maybe I'll start listening to him.
- JDLamb88, on 05/30/2009, -0/+6Sorry but the bible is not a reliable source.
- SSPink, on 05/30/2009, -2/+8A blastocyst is not a person. A clump of ~100 cells is not a human being, it is not capable of feeling anything, it is not capable of suffering, it is not capable of cognition, it is not capable of doing anything. By contrast, a fruit fly's brain contains ~250,000 cells, a cockroach's brain ~1,000,000 cells, and that's just their brains. So every time you swat a fly or squish a roach you are inflicting much, much more suffering on the world than the doctors harvesting stem cells. If you are so concerned that destroying a clump of ~100 human cells is murder, then every time you scratch your ass you are committing a holocaust.
"Life starts at conception." And what of the fact that in some pregnancies the zygote splits in two? Where does the second "soul" come from? Or do twins share the same soul? Or what of the fact that sometimes after there is a split the two separate zygotes fuse back together and result in only one fetus? What happens to the extra "soul"? Is it lost or does the fetus house two "souls"? If your "god" is all powerful and all knowing, why would it provide a soul to zygote it KNOWS will be destroyed?
Your absurd, unfounded beliefs are getting in the way of human progress and human health and you have no right to force your baseless dogma on those of us who are trying to live our lives based on evidence and reason. - inactive, on 05/30/2009, -0/+5memes are serious business
- kaosethema, on 05/30/2009, -0/+4the fetus is within a woman's body thus it is an issue concerning HER body not YOUR religion.
- jhbarr, on 05/30/2009, -1/+5and Jews are for embryonic stem cell research. What should it matter what either my or your religion says. I don't impose my religious beliefs on you, why are you imposing yours on me.
- insanebrain, on 05/30/2009, -1/+51) become Christian
2) stay dumb
3) ???
4) is this what you call profit ? - jhbarr, on 05/30/2009, -1/+4Then you are for embryonic stem cell research because an embryo is not a fetus. No one is discussing fetal stem cell research.
- CrackyJSquirrel, on 05/30/2009, -2/+5Yes, because that is what they want to do. They want to create farms of pregnant women to harvest their unborn fetuses for our selfish search of immortality. You have cracked the conspiracy, found us out you have.
Not sure where you get the idea that fetuses are being aborted purely for stem cells. - cjurdane, on 05/30/2009, -0/+2I all for stem cell as long as they don't kill fetuses. There is so much potential to this. I wish they'd get double of whatever research funding they are getting.
- cjurdane, on 05/30/2009, -2/+4bravo, you explained it beautifully.
- JDLamb88, on 05/30/2009, -0/+2Even then, I won't listen to him.
- Leviathan84, on 05/31/2009, -0/+2Kudos on the submitted argument.
Mr Harris's logic will be wasted on many in these forums though comrade. - Tarnum, on 05/30/2009, -2/+4You break them open and suck the insides out? Or gather the cells from the the placenta, that is medical waste anyway?
We are not the Inquisition. - Vizeris, on 05/31/2009, -0/+2The Catholic view is wrong. Sorry. If life started at fertilization, how in the hell do you explain identical twins? They become 2 people from a single fertilized egg, and they sure don't seem to share the same soul to me.
If life did start then, more than one soul must occupy the body, and unless you are prepared to say that multiple-personality disorder is being possessed of more than one soul, that's a poor argument. And if that were true, then your God is far from merciful or kind, or better yet, he's not perfect! You can't pass the nature of God's creation off on the devil.
And if the soul was not a singular entity, but rather a plurality of different parts, how can there be a Christian hell? I mean you clearly wouldn't be you once you died. - asianjewel, on 05/31/2009, -0/+2"There are so many sick and diseased people in the world that once it's allowed it would be difficult to control ethically since the easiest way to obtain them is from a conceived fetus."
so it's more ethical to have the technology and resources to potentially save people but not use it and let sick and diseased people die instead?
"Same reasoning seems to be going on here about embryos as with black slaves from Africa, "we can't talk to them, don't understand them, and we're not sure they are even people, but we can use them to get something we want, so sure, sell me a bunch."
Um don't you think it's somewhat insulting to compare what we know NOW to what people knew in the past. And I wouldn't exactly say we don't understand stem cells in the same sense that people didn't understand black people and ignorantly used them as slaves. The whole purpose of stem cell research is so that scientists can better understand them and use the technology to help other people in the future, aka save lives. I don't see how that's related to enslaving and belittling another race. Poor analogy.
Finally, your entire argument about how human nature would use stem cells as a reason to make maximum profits as through having a purposeful miscarriage doesn't make any sense. Because if a woman would REALLY be stupid enough to cause herself to go through all types of emotional as well as physical pain to cause a miscarriage, she must either be retarded or desperate. And I don't think women in that sort of predicament are really capable of carrying a full term child anyway let along raise it, so in the end, the benefits of her being able to help say 20 people through her embryo's stem cells would greatly outweigh the cost of POSSIBLY not having a child (though I'm sure that woman isn't really interested in having a child in the first place and probably isn't even capable of raising the child herself). - inactive, on 05/30/2009, -1/+2I would happily volunteer for research into stem cell research on humans, assuming my body is suitable.
- Crazysticks, on 05/30/2009, -1/+2Loaded question. It's never right to kill someone unless they are doing so to others. Even then, it is a case to case, grey area, tight rope walking decision that I could never have the balls to make.
- murrayc1968, on 05/30/2009, -2/+3Stupid Catholics.
Ok, so let's say that using an unborn fetus for its stem cells is indeed a "sin". So, why not simply use the stem cells from a fetus that was MISCARRIED? No harm, No foul. Isn't a miscarriage God's abortion?
Also, and this is where it pisses me off about religious people who don't do their homework objectively, you can also use stem cells from the placenta after a baby has been born. Again, No Harm, No Foul.
So why are religaholics standing in the way of ethical progress? Or more importantly, why do we keep LETTING these dogmatic nut jobs get in the way?
Stupid Catholics. - inactive, on 06/01/2009, -0/+1My guess is that this ethical dilemma associated with stem cells originated from the Health Care industry. Think about how it would negatively impact the profitability of the industry if you could simply inject stem cells into a damaged area of the body to cure a huge number of currently serious ailments.
- IgorUnchained, on 05/30/2009, -2/+3Very interesting read. Too bad the Pope gets his science from a different book.
- Gguillorn, on 05/30/2009, -2/+3"Even atheists are against killing humans .. but aren't always vegetarian, are they?"
Yeah, even us godless heathens have morals sometimes. Also, kinda confused by the whole vegetarian argument, most Americans eat meat regardless of religion. - Vizeris, on 05/31/2009, -0/+1Meiosis is finished prior to the first zygotic division, and thus before the separation of twin zygotes my friend. What you have in twins is two genetically identical individuals. And it has everything to do with God if you suppose that God made the world in such a way so that the soul inhabits the body at fertilization/conception.
And thank you for making my point for me, conjoined twins, another prime example. Explain that if the soul is there at conception. It's not like we can say what the soul is, but if we suppose our souls contain our immortal consciousness, as Christians do, we can sure as hell suppose when the soul would not be present.
From a secular point of view, I don't care about the soul. Consciousness at bare minimum requires a neuronal network, not even present in its most basic form until after gastrulation (well after we harvest for stem cells). So yes, twins have separate consciousness because they have separate nervous systems. Your brain is you, that's why people who suffer brain injury can fundamentally change after the injury. - booyahbitch, on 05/30/2009, -1/+2IT'S A MYSTERY BEEEACHA!!!!!
- insanebrain, on 05/30/2009, -0/+1Look at the Internet... you are dumb.
- ajkrik, on 05/31/2009, -1/+1Idiots. Life doesn't stop for sperm and egg cells because the are combined. They ARE alive, viable, living. The question is whether or not you wish to treat these living cells as "people" or as something disposable. Personally I don't give a rat's ass what you do with your sperm or eggs or zygotes, but if I donate sperm to create fertilized eggs, I want a say in their disposal, I don't need to ask morons who have no interest in them whether they consider them living or dead or lunch, mind your own f-ing business.
- Gguillorn, on 05/30/2009, -0/+0[citation needed]
- nullcodes, on 05/31/2009, -2/+2Twins each have their own soul, at fertilization there is one human cell it has a soul .. following this, the the process of meiosis can create a new human entity with it's own soul (sense of self awareness).
Your argument has nothing to do with God .. from a secular point of view .. how do twins have their own sense of self awareness? They are given this at birth? Do conjoined twins have their own soul and sense of self awareness? - arcrad, on 05/30/2009, -2/+1Butter, you ***** the whole joke up. It should be How is steem cell formed? Third letter, idiot.
- nullcodes, on 05/30/2009, -8/+8Catholics are not against stem cell research. We believe that life starts at conception, so we're against killing a human when it's in an embryomic stage in order to steal stem cells or do research. There is no problem with taking adult stem cells or even stem cells from an embryo/fetus as long as it doesn't harm (injure or kill) the fetus.
Is it OK to kill one person and take all his organs to save the life of 20 people? - CrackyJSquirrel, on 05/30/2009, -3/+3you had me at kill babbys.. I will do that ***** for free..
- inactive, on 05/30/2009, -2/+1It's not, sorry.
- booyahbitch, on 05/30/2009, -2/+1Sheeee-it! If they are saving my life, or making me walk again after a spinal injury, I don't give a damn if they kill ALL the babies!!!
- pazimzadeh, on 05/30/2009, -3/+2The main problem right now in embryonic stem cell research is not the opposition (religious, non-educated people, etc...) it's that using embryonic stem cells does not actually work right now. When embryonic stem cells are injected they grow into tumors...basically they are 'programmed' to become a fetus so that's what they do their best to do. Oftentimes normal body parts (i.e. hair, teeth, etc...) appear at the injection sites, which is obviously a huge problem. Research is being done to prevent this but the mechanisms involved include very complicated cell signaling mechanisms which aren't fully understood yet.
Even stem cells that are allowed to differentiate a bit into a specific type of cell (multipotent cell) can usually go back to their original state (pluripotent) and grow into a full tumor/fetus. - dupery, on 05/30/2009, -2/+1So exactly how many cells does it take for an embryo (or fetus) to be human?
- AraleNorimaki, on 05/31/2009, -1/+0SOUTH PARK DID IT
- TomGfromCanada, on 05/30/2009, -3/+1you smush up a bunch of babies in to a past, then apply to your paralyzed back.
- mitso6989, on 05/30/2009, -1/+0Creating any industry using our reproductive parts is a questionable matter from many angles and viewpoints. There are so many sick and diseased people in the world that once it's allowed it would be difficult to control ethically since the easiest way to obtain them is from a conceived fetus. And no you can't use miscarried or still born as they are dead, no more cell replication. And again if you could find a way, then all you have to do is cause a miscarriage, and hey, big batch of stems cells, that either you could sell, or that the hospital or lab could profit from. And the profits would be so immense that human nature would be to reason it so they could make maximum profits. Same reasoning seems to be going on here about embryos as with black slaves from Africa, "we can't talk to them, don't understand them, and we're not sure they are even people, but we can use them to get something we want, so sure, sell me a bunch." now days this seems absurd. So how absurd will this debate about "embryos aren't people" sound in 50 years?
- nullcodes, on 05/31/2009, -3/+1It's a separate human life, and entitled to protection. Just because you have the right to privacy doesn't mean you can kill someone in private. You have the right to privacy at home too, but that doesn't mean you can abuse your kids there.
Anyway, the stem cell issue is dealing with embryos that are no longer in a woman. - insanebrain, on 05/30/2009, -3/+1I can haz no plural ?
- inactive, on 05/30/2009, -4/+1People can still be educated about stem cells and be against it. My Phd thesis was on the topic of stem cell ethics. I can tell you that there were quite a few scientists who are very well informed, and are against embryonic stem cell research.
- nullcodes, on 05/30/2009, -6/+3You haven't a clue when human life forms, furthermore the reason it's not ok to destroy life has nothing to do with God. Human life must be protected regardless of it's IQ or how many brain cells it has, because nobody knows what self awareness is and how it arises. Even atheists are against killing humans .. but aren't always vegetarian, are they?
- RiotHeart, on 05/30/2009, -4/+1You break them open and suck the insides out?
- socoolisme, on 05/30/2009, -9/+4They just inject you with that fetus crap and you're better in 5 minutes.
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