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219 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+27Ford needs to invent profit and sales growth.
- Disparity, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Um, does anyone else notice how sketchy this article is?
- tazamore, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10I'm sick of hearing about concept cars. Either build and sell it or shut up about it.
- Chompy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I'll believe it when it's in the showroom.
- hackersword, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5300% more efficient is in the claim that hydraulic stores better then the battery. But implied is that the hydraulic system is significantly bigger then battery, this is why only feasible in a truck. The "efficiency" does not equate to better/more mpg then current prius.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Huh? You can't store energy in a hydraulic cylinder, the fluid is not compressable. I think they are really referring to some kind of hydrostatic transmission, which supposably will let the engine run in a more efficient range. 300%? I'll believe it when I see it. I have an old Oliver tractor with a hydrostatic transmission. It might get a couple of miles to the gallon."
Do some research before professing knowledge of all things hydraulic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_accumulator
"A hydraulic accumulator is an energy storage device. It is a pressure storage reservoir in which a non-compressible hydraulic fluid is held under pressure by an external source. " - nozol03, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Wow, you would really think all of the Ford-bashing wouldn't be so high on this story... it's exciting new technology, so just take it at face value. People worried about Hydrogen powered cars exploding as well, but that apparently isn't much of a problem either. Worried about a hydraulic system blowing up? You aren't exactly driving around with an inert liquid in your fuel tank right now.
I hope technology like this will help Ford overcome their recent struggles. My Dad lost his job in the massive Ford layoffs, thanks to people who prefer to save some money by purchasing foreign vehicles. Take your Toyota and drive to Walmart... you are slowly burying this country.
You should have seen the warm welcome that was given to the Toyota RAV 4 when they wheeled it out onto the ice @ Joe Louis Arena during yesterday's game against the Avalanche. It got booed more than the opposing team. - mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4WIsh the article was more informative. Doesn't really describe how it works. I'm tyring to envision how you could store energy in a hydraulic cylinder, and coming up blank. Anyone care to describe this to me?
Sounds good though. Using the word hydraulic in a hybrid truck is probably also good marketing. It sounds manly. :P - silverstrike, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Why is that everyone bashes American cars to readily? Honestly, their quality problems were several years ago. Now, the Focus, etc are easily as reliable as the Japanese models (and I own a Corolla).
However, for all the naysayers out there, and all the "see it, believe it" people, check out google before you rant:
http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_tonka_hydraulic_regenerative/index.htm
Its already been done on a F-350, where the system was used for off-the-block power for towing. The reason its more efficent than current hybrids is a simple result of thermodynamics: When energy changes form, some of it usually leaks away.
In the case of a regular hybird, mechanical energy is transformed into electrical (generator), then into chemical (battery), and then back again. This process is expensive -- a lot of energy is lost.
This new system is much more efficent, as the energy never changes form -- it remain mechanical the entire time. My main concern would be the pressures the hydraulic tanks are under. Several hundred PSI in a metal tank is the eqivalent of driving around on top of a bomb. - nozol03, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3These Japanese manufacturers basically only have the 4 cylinder engine and hybrid capabilities working toward their advantage. It seems like an excessive amount of the vehicles are made from plastics, as to keep the manufacturing costs low.
To that point, thank God that the Americans still own the truck market. Japanese trucks are a joke (Tundra, Ridgeline, etc...) - dknighton, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"Cool....too bad no American will buy this. Everyone knows Americans NEED their 4 MPG 12 passenger SUVs. "I need to offroad to the mall for a jug of milk", typical American."
Anti-American much? Americans don't NEED to burn a gallon of fuel every 4 to 12 miles. The like and enjoy CHOICE, which I think is really what gets people like you pissed off. It's a basic battle of the haves and have-nots. All I can say to those kinds of comments is, "Don't hate the player, hate the game that your OWN government is playing."
When hybrid cars come in the styles that Americans want, and when they perform as well as the standard gasoline engines do, AND they save them money as well, Americans will start buying them and a market shift will occur. But we "typical Americans" are not going to sacrifice quality and performance to drive around in a car that burns less fuel. Not to mention that you pay a premium for the "priviledge" of buying a hybrid, and they're about the smallest, ugliest cars on the face of the earth! Even the Escape hybrid is one of the smallest SUV's on the market, and the gas mileage is not impressive enough to justify the sacrifice.
Check yourself, and get to the REAL reason why you don't like Americans. It's probably envy. - three60, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I am so tired of hearing US auto companies talk and talk about efficiency. I'll believe it when I see it. In the meantime, only Toyota and Honda are walking the walk.
- nozol03, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@bmpwe
Yeah, and since my dad designs the cars and everything else, it is clearly his fault. People like you will be the end of the American automotive industry. What ever happened to patriotism in this country? I still remember all of the "Buy American" murals and flags that were prevalent during Desert Storm. The average American assembly line workers and skilled trades are being dicked because people see better things in other cars. Here's a new flash to you, though... when there are no more American automakers, you aren't going to have many choices.
God forbid the day where the only choice I really have in mainstream automotive is between Toyota and Honda. - justinf951, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Buying toyota is actually more patriotic than buying most "american" cars. Toyota actually manufactures a large amount of their cars in the united states unlike most american car companies.
- HMTKSteve, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3A car that runs on water??? Are you crazy! Bottled water is more expensive then gasoline!
Besides, you know they will void your warrenty if you use tap water... - Bigcat1021, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6"I'll stick with giving my money to Japan, ***** the American working man."
When the American working man can't design a decent car and/or operate a solvent company, he deserves to be *****. - panique, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@justingf951 - "Buying toyota is actually more patriotic than buying most "american" cars. Toyota actually manufactures a large amount of their cars in the united states unlike most american car companies. "
So your saying it is more patriotic to cause money to exit our economy than to keep it within our borders...I guess your definition of patriotic is "subvert one's nation in any way possible". - seandaly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Best link w/ diagram of full system so far!!!
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/02/epa_eaton_and_p.html
This is an interesting concept. I'm curious to see how well it pans out (if at all). I've worked with industrial equipment in the past and have seen hydraulic accumulators in action.
There is a concern of weight... Any accumulator large enough to store enough usable energy as proposed in the above diagram would have some serious weight involved, which would cause highway fuel economy to suffer. I'd imagine that the best applications would involve lots of stop `n go driving (city driving or postal delivery trucks).
There is also the issue of installation. Hydraulic accumulators like to be installed vertically, not horizontally (unless they are not the bladder type). The bladders tend to rub the inside of the tank if they are on their side and reduces the life of the accumulator. That's probably why Ford chose an F-150 as the test bed instead of a focus! :c)
Anyway, we'll see if anything comes out of it...
I would be interested to see if someone would invest the time into designing a hydraulic accumulator out of composite materials (wound tank design) to reduce weight. - vmerc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Even if it's true, excuse me but I don't want to get in an accident with a high pressure hydraulic system just waiting to explode in my face. All that stored energy has to come out somehow. And what if it needs service? I would rather have it explode in my face than pay the exorbitant sums of money that Ford will charge for them to look at it. And you KNOW that it will be dealer only service for a long time.
- nozol03, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Chompy, I think you are making the mistake of putting the blame on the workers. The average assembly line worker can change company policy or change the direction of the company no more than he can throw one of the cars he manufactures. I think if anyone within the company is to blame, it has to be the fat-cat white collared workers and the board members. They are the ones who need to open their eyes and breathe some life into the companies, before it is too late.
- A2Ska, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Sounds too good to be true.
- swight, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If I'm right, this work is based on this:
http://www.hydristor.com/
And I've been waiting for good news like this, this is great for gas guzzlers, but how about the same tech being applied to a battery or fuel cell car? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"This really isn't going to be more appealing to the average car buyer than any other green friendly vehicle. Until someone creates a dependable, cost comparable, and easily maintainable engine that pushes out MORE than the avg. V6, your not gonna the majority of people going to it."
what the hell is amater with you, a F-150 has a 20gallon gas tank, at 60mpg thats 1200miles on 1 tank, the car will pay for it self in with in 3 years on the money you save on gas. i don't know a person who would not want that. - nozol03, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@ Mogua
As Sirocco posted earlier in this discussion:
Check Consumer Reports. American vehicles have been steadily climbing in reliability, while Asian and European vehicles have taken a huge hit in the last five years. Ford and GM vehicles are now rated slightly higher than BMW, Mercedes, and Volvos in terms of overall reliability.
I'm sure Consumer Reports is in the business of lying /rolleyes - Jorg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"@justingf951 - "Buying toyota is actually more patriotic than buying most "american" cars. Toyota actually manufactures a large amount of their cars in the united states unlike most american car companies. "
Bull...
My previous truck was made in Kentucky (on a line that also made Mazda trucks) and the one I drive now as made in Kansas City... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2
My guess.... They use the extra energy from the brakes to JACK THE CAR way up using huge shocks like monster trucks... then when they need extra energy they blead that off by slowly lowering the truck.
:) - nozol03, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Global economy or not, in terms of quality and reliability, American auto manufacturers reign. Unfortunately, most people are just buying throw-away civics, accords, etc.
The idea of a global economy can really do nothing but harm to the middle-class American worker. In my opinion, NAFTA was a terrible freakin' idea. - itake, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Wow..definitely a poorly written article. The system the writer refers to is meant for larger vehicles, and would replace the battery system which doesn't have enough torque to get a large vehicle moving as well. Here is a link (http://www.iags.org/n033104t3.htm) to a hydraulic hybrid that is being developed by the EPA that improves SUV gas mileage by 55%, there is talk of coupling this with a diesel engine for even better efficiency.
- rodball, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3if(seeIt == true){
believeIt();
} - etx313, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Fords been doing something similar for a long time with their brake systems. The fluid is used to stop the car, the pressure created while breaking is stored and that pressure is released when you begin to accelerate to push the truck. I hear it was only used in small commercial vehicles.
Oh, and all you idiots go get your Japanese cars. Your just following the trend, it's cool. I don't purchase the burgers you flip at the local fast food joint so I guess we're even. - thecrazyitguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I am not sure why Ford is wasting time with this...Honda just announced quietly the hydrogen powered car...why not just move in that one direction, rather than 500 other directions (exaggerated to emphasize point). We have gas engine/battery , gas engine/battery/hydraulics, battery, etc...They should focus their energies on one technology, the one with the most abundant element in the universe. It would be difficult for us to run out of that stuff, wouldn't it?
- dasc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I think it works kind of like those 'AirHog' toys. Braking energy is used to compress air and store it liquified (hence Hydraulic) in a cylander. When needed the air is released and it drives a turbine that provides power to the wheels to overcome that initial inertia. It's similar to how the Prius uses a generator for braking and batteries to offer a boost. As it turns out more gas is lost in first gear trying to move out of a dead stop then is used to travel at a constant speed in the higher gears. Both methods seem to be a good system to assist the car in stop and go traffic but I still don't believe long haul highway mileage will be improved. Still, the truck does seem like it will benefit more from hybrid technology as they tend to be used more for business and 'city driving' then they are for highway commutes. Who should really get a boost from this kind of technology would be delivery services in town. UPS, FedEx and the Post Office really have no excuse for not pushing for this kind of technology. Especially the Post Office. The one in my neighborhood with his right side steering stops at every house. Also as mentioned the batteries lose effeciency in cold weather so hydraulic assist would be a better solution for New England, the Dakotas, Canada, anywhere with a cold winter.
- 298th_Scat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I couldn't find another site with same information other sites max out a 55% .. So I am guessing this site is BS
- Backlash, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I can't believe how many ingonrant people there are at digg now. Really saddening.
- dwhitbeck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1 Hydraulic accumulators as opposed to hydraulic cylinders, do store energy depending upon their size. They are essentially a nitrogen bladder inside a high pressure bottle. To store enough energy to propel an automobile up a small hill would require a huge accumulator.
- TuxFan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hopefully Ford will develop a hybrid system that is better than Toyota's system but I doubt it. Current CEOs and capitalists prefer to sell the same crap year after year followed by complaints that R&D are just wastes of money. Last I checked, capitalism required innovation. Maybe they prefer fascism or communism since they don't require or even like innovation.
- draco8876, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I hate Ford...but love fuel efficiency and trucks...In other words, here's a Ford I'd buy.
- cynyr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@mi2ca
"I rented a Ford vehicle on a recent vacation. The week I spent with that car was enough to let me know that I would never in a million years buy a Ford. It was like driving a plastic shoe box. I don't believe this hydraulic nonsense either. I've never heard of using hydraulics as a means of storing energy. Compressed air maybe, but not oil. Ford and GM both need to be completely overhauled from the top down. Start by firing every executive in the place and putting the working class back to work! And this baloney of buying American cars. *****! Tell Ford and GM to stop jobbing out component manufacture to companies that use oversease labor. The consume is not the problem."
i would doubt they are using compressed air, i would guess they are using relitivly high pressure oil, and using a Hydraulic accumulator to store the energy, this would also allow aot of the energy to be released at once, the problem with air is the pressure changes with tempurture, and it is compressable so only good for certian things(air tools). anyways i'll refrain from dealing with the opinion parts of that comment, just to say that, air is most likely not what they are using. - scottjl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1sorry. but i'll believe this when i can drive it off the sales lot. i've read way too many articles about inventors/engines/cars/designs that run 500miles on a drop of gasoline but have yet to see any that i can rush out to my local dealership and drop $20k on. until then, this is as real as my flying car.
- autoklix, on 02/10/2008, -0/+1I don't like ford.
but the efficiency think is something that really nice to hear.
http://www.autoklix.com - LaughingMan11, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@nozol03
"This is obviously a joke. Ford didn't have any hybrid anything until a few years ago when they licensed Toyota's old SynergyDrive for the Escape."
This is incorrect. Ford developed the technology on their own (actually, they inherited a lot of it from Volvo when they purchased them). However, Toyota got the Prius to market first, and got their patent first. Their design for the hybrid system looked similar to Toyota's, so Ford and Toyota arranged to swap licenses. Ford used the Toyota license to avoid litigation for their Escape design, and Toyota got some of Ford's diesel licesnes. - SuprCzr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ford has had this technology in the works for quite some time. It was in the tonka truck show f350. I'm told by former ford employees that it does work, in practice and theory. The efficiency isnt quite up to snuff, and driveability isnt there (its very loud).
Remember that this tech only works on acceleration... Highway driving is totally unaffected, and driving a 4500lb truck on the highway is still gonna net you 13 mpg. - Sirocco, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2>> When the American working man can't design a decent car and/or operate a
>> solvent company, he deserves to be *****.
Check Consumer Reports. American vehicles have been steadily climbing in reliability, while Asian and European vehicles have taken a huge hit in the last five years. Ford and GM vehicles are now rated slightly higher than BMW, Mercedes, and Volvos in terms of overall reliability. As for solvency, Ford is largely a slave to the Auto Workers' Union, which pretty much explains 99% of their problems.
Times change, and only fools hold on to their grudges in times like these. - kiseki, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Actually Toyota is #2 in worldwide sales and are on track to surpass GM at current growth rates. In the US they are 3rd. Toyota is simply on a tear while GM and Ford are scrambling for a response and cutting costs.
As for the article, wake me up when there's an actual product. Do you guys really think all companies don't have tons of things "in development" that will supposedly shake up the market? - tilleyrw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If it sounds too good to be true, better wait until you can buy it at Wal-Mart.
-- Your Loving Cynic - mattspammail, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1With a sweet graphic like that, I don't see how this could be anything but credible.
Well, I'm off to pre-order, then invest a few million in Ford stock. - bobpaul, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1dwhitbeck --
There are other fluids that can be used in a hydraulic system other than hydraulic-oil. Air is a compressible fluid, so is helium. - dwhitbeck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1One of the advantages of a gasoline/electric hybrid is that you can use regenerative braking to charge the battery instead of just creating heat from the brake pads. This accounts for the efficiency of hybrids in city driving. Perhaps you can charge an accumulator to accomplish braking also. Does anyone know how much energy you can store in a reasonably sized accumulator as opposed to a reasonably sized set of batteries?
- nozol03, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Laughingman
I agree with you a hell of a lot, and I see face-to-face with 99% of your argument. I just want you to recognize the one simple fact:
It is hard for a middle-class auto worker to exist in the market the way it is. There is a lot of resentment toward other auto manufacturers, and a lot of undue resentment to your fellow Americans for buying those vehicles. Notice, I said undue. Once it was GM vs Ford, etc. etc., but anymore, it seems more of a collaborative America vs the World. I am wrong to get so upset, but like others have said, it hits the hardest at home.
You just need to realize that while the company executives see losses and still make 6 figures, to some of us it is the difference between living and dying. Frustration comes from the inability to make change.
Thank you for this discussion, it has been very thought provoking, and has given me something to do while I had some time off @ work here :-D - adml_shake, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Just give me my god damn flying car already!
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