What is Digg?954 Comments
- lucidguru, on 05/22/2008, -15/+123"this whole creationism vs. evolutionism has nothing to do with being an atheist"... ah but it does. A free thinker is dangerous because they cannot be controlled. They want you to fall in line.
- cpizanias, on 05/22/2008, -20/+118Unfortunately, not only is evolution not taught in some schools, but the meaning of the word 'theory' is not properly taught as well.
A theory is a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena. The colloquial usage in our vernacular for the word 'theory' is actually 'hypothesis.' Einstein didn't give us his best guess of relativity, he gave us the theory of relativity. A theory is comprised of some of the highest orders of scientific knowledge, such as the law e=mc2. If all theories are nothing more than conjecture according to creationists, then why would e=mc2 be correct but everything we now know about evolution, genetics, etc. be invalidated by the intelligent design hypothesis?
Evolution is a theory, not a hypothesis. "Intelligent" design is a hypothesis, not a theory. This is why it has no basis for being taught in a science curriculum.
Also, "Big Bang" Theory is a very outdated concept and ignores the past 60 years of physics. What should be taught in high school is "M-Theory."
Evolutionary psychology provides great theories as to why we believe in religions in the first place, but the creationists and the scientologists would never allow such controversial teachings at the secondary level.
I'll be criticized for this conclusion by all sides I'm sure, but why bring children up with a belief in any deity or deities? Why not raise them with your morals as a guide and then when they are older they can make a more informed decision about what faith to practice? - JoaoPe, on 05/22/2008, -28/+126Please God, saves us from people who believe in you.
- MikeSD34, on 05/22/2008, -3/+64Creationism isn't a valid scientific theory, and does not adhere to standard scientific practice. As such it should not be thought in science classes to suggestible children. You can believe in and have faith in anything you want, but that doesn't mean it belongs in schools.
- treelovinhippie, on 05/22/2008, -7/+67Evidence mate. Evolution has evidence. ID has nothing. And if you're going to teach ID (the Christian version), why not teach the Flying Spaghetti Monsters' creationism version? Or Zeus? Or any of the other thousands of gods out there. They all have exactly the same amount of evidence (none) and 'validity' (none) as Intelligent Design. So can you not see the issue with saying "why not teach both?".
If the US continues on this path you can kiss goodbye to liberties, freedom, technological advancements, political dominance, military dominance etc etc. History is a great indicator of this. Baghdad used to be the intellectual capital of the world during 800-1100AD until some douchebag clerics decided that maths was the work of the devil. And we know how much that part of the world has gone downhill from then.
I love how our entire global civilisation and everything in our lives that we take for granted (medicine, electricity, clean water, abundance of food, computers etc) has all come about solely because of science and the scientific method of inquiry. And yet people are so brainwashed through indoctrination that they turn their backs on this incredible achievement of mankind simply to stay in their comfort zone of medieval beliefs. It is petty, childish and a disgrace on the human intellect and capability. - HakonD, on 05/22/2008, -12/+71Being from Norway I have never actually talked to anyone who believe in creationism, but I really feel for the students who have to put up with that crap from teachers. I can't help but wonder what the next generation of Americans will be like...
- ncairns, on 05/22/2008, -10/+65Um. And you support Ron Paul?
You do know he's a Creationist and thinks public schools should be able to teach it, right? - Daz3, on 05/22/2008, -5/+53"Teach both theories. Easy. Done."
ID isn't a scientific theory. It is a pseudo-scientific hypothesis. If we were to teach our children pseudo-scientific theories we may as well include 'astrology', 'numerology' etc...
Do you support the teaching of these 'theories' as well? If you do, you're an idiot. If you don't, you are being hypocritical. - DarkLance, on 05/22/2008, -6/+53you are a moron, sorry.
Science has been wrong many times, yes, but no one denies that. In fact we hold that as the main reason the Scientific Process is far more valid than religious view on creation. The ability to admit one's mistakes is a strength no religion can accept, as it removes its "infallibility", thus making it out to what it really is, a bunch of stories written by dead people.
My arguments are falling on deaf ears though I think... soo, I'll just digg you down. - gordonj, on 05/22/2008, -2/+39@foxhaze
let me paraphrase your comment;
"I have no idea how science or reason works, yet I feel it is my place to comment on what is or is not science. I do not know why people proclaim evolution to be science, yet say ID is unscientific. I don't understand the concept of "tolerance", because I think that it is intolerant not to teach non-science in a science classroom." - inactive, on 05/22/2008, -2/+39The funny thing is I went to a private Christian school (in Australia) and we never had any of this creation *****. In science we learnt science, in religion and church we learnt Christian mythology.
I briefly encountered these people but they were other students, not the teachers. - danogburn, on 05/22/2008, -5/+41Scientific knowledge changes over time. There's nothing unusual with science being "wrong" its part of the learning process. Religious beliefs, on the other hand ,NEVER change even in the face of contrary evidence. Therefore, its religious people that are closed minded.
- Coven, on 05/22/2008, -2/+37Then teach them side by side in a PHILOSOPHY class. Keep your religion out of my science classroom.
- inactive, on 05/22/2008, -4/+37Don't defend science when it's proven wrong.
It was proven wrong by better science.
Religion has never been proven right, ever. - Drahkar, on 05/22/2008, -3/+35Because it has no basis in fact at all. Its a religious belief. If you want to learn it go to a private religious school. People have no right to force their personal religious thinking on others which is exactly what they do when they force Intelligent Design and Creationism into the School system.
yngtimmy, either you are one of these morons who should, quite frankly, be bitchslapped for their religious intolerance and persecution of anyone who doesn't believe what they do (Most ID Followers and Creationist advocate with fanaticism the banning of things like Evolution from the teaching system as well as many other proven sciences because it doesn't fit with their view of the universe) Or you haven't read very much about these people. If you haven't read much about these people I highly recommend you do. Many of them are borderline psychotic in my book. A lot of them are the kind of people who would like their kids die of curable diseases because 'God will reach down and cure them because we believe in him and follow his word'.
Blind Faith is a sickness. It perverts ones ability to think clearly and clouds your vision from learning and growing. And its a key tool for those in power to use in controlling the masses in a leashed fashion. - starmanjones, on 05/22/2008, -11/+43hang in there. like platinumwolf said... don't get so wrapped up fighting this you loose the diploma. its obvious that knowledge is not the important factor in a high school eduction. the paper is. whats being done to you is child abuse.
they can distort reality and force feed you junk religion... but they can't change truth. you and others will come out of high school knowing the dangers religion poses to truth. you will be their worst nightmare. they do have a limited run with this nonsense.
i've noticed that all those arguments they used to duck because it sounded stupid even to them are finding their way in the dialog. thats a good thing. it means they are loosing. the people left arguing are more and more irrational and the logic less and less consistent.
maybe this is a small hope... i live in kansas. this group of nuts decided that we were a good target for their guerrilla war. that whole episode was planned from the outside and those people literally infiltrated our state board of education. kansas is an odd place. in the east we are among the most liberal place in the U.S. in the west they are conservative. not religious right conservatives.
we... i... went to the school board meetings. we prepared for a fight. but when the time came we looked around and nobody was for teaching religion in science class. the religious weren't for it. the non religious weren't for it. the teachers weren't for it. it had no support. we ended by complying with the law. there was a class created. it had not schedule. it had no teacher. it had no enrollment.
the next election cycle we canned these guerrillas for god. i would normally as part of my personal policy on people not say this. we aren't making the rules. we are under attack and they want to fight on grounds more civilized people don't want to walk. its dangerous to say i am better than they are. but its painful obvious that we are smarter than they are. we think more logically than they do. we will win and they will go extinct. - liuite, on 05/22/2008, -10/+40people who believe in an "invisible friend" should keep it to themselves and not force that belief upon others
- bombula, on 05/22/2008, -6/+36People should, of course, be free to be as stupid or ignorant as they please on their own time. But on the taxpayer's dollar, biology teachers need to teach ***** biology and not religion. If 99.99% of the world's leading biologists thought DNA was 'just a theory' and the real explanation for cellular reproduction were invisible space monkeys flying out of George W. Bush's ass, then that is what would have to be taught in federally and state funded classrooms. As it happens, 99.99% of leading biologists think evolution is the foundation of biology, therefore THAT is what must be taught in the classroom.
But thanks, all you redneck fundie religious ***** psycho nutbags who should be living in Saudi Arabia instead of America, you give me something to be proud about for my country every day. - kublerross, on 05/22/2008, -3/+33I love how to the rest of the world, these "creationists" are fictional idiots living in america who know one has ever met in person.
kind of like how we think of 'al-queda' - Platinumwolf, on 05/22/2008, -20/+48I'd love to tell you that you should get your school administrators involved, but that might actually be dangerous to your health depending on where you're going to school. It's really sad, but the best option for many people is to learn evolutionary theory on their own. Not only are you more likely to get an accurate view of the issue and more likely a better understanding, you'll also avoid the stress of dealing with idiotic high school teachers. Perhaps a framework could be drawn up where the high school biology diploma requirement could be filled by taking a biology course or two at the local community college. You might petition for that anyway if you have to take another biology class. Granted these are all work around solutions, and aren't dealing with the real issue here, but it's better than stressing yourself out trying to fight against the group of stupid people in large numbers.
- BaudiIROCZ, on 05/22/2008, -2/+28Hmm, never having to see a fundie again? Norway sounds like the place to be.
- danogburn, on 05/22/2008, -0/+26A THEORY IS NOT A GUESS.
A theory is an explanation for natural phenomenon backed by empirical evidence.
Creationism IS NOT a valid theory (present evidence for it and it will be)
Evolution is.
and if you want to be specific, evolution doesn't deal with the origin of the universe or life on Earth. It only deals with the diversity of life. - brstilson, on 05/22/2008, -3/+28Reality is not a matter of opinion or perspective. Imagine if you were in math class and the teacher told you 3 + 3 = 6 and you said "sorry teacher, but my religious beliefs teach me that 6 is an ungodly number. Nothing can add up to 6, therefore 3 + 3 = 7"
You'd be laughed out of the classroom, but strangely enough when it comes to evolution, facts are all of the sudden up to interpretation. Sorry folks, but real life is not the Bible. Religious people pretend to use the Bible as a guide, when in actuality it's used as a justification for their pre-determined moral code. In the world of religion, everything is a matter of interpretation, perspective, and opinion, but only in the world of religion. The real world is one of cold, hard facts, and believing otherwise doesn't change them.
It's not up to students and biology teachers to determine what is scientifically viable. They don't have the education or training to do so. It's up to the SCIENTISTS--you know, the people actually doing the research--and the system of peer review to determine scientific validity. - Maver1c, on 05/22/2008, -3/+28Your very first sentence states the problem. creationism is NOT a theory. it is a story. plain and simple. it has no place whatsoever to be taught in a public school science class.
- danogburn, on 05/22/2008, -4/+28Creationism/ID isn't a theory, it's a hypothesis at best. As such, should not be taught in a science class.
A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
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A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
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A Theory Is NOT A GUESS.
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A Theory Is NOT A GUESS. - gordonj, on 05/22/2008, -5/+28Please explain how ID is a scientific theory.
Religious indoctrination does not lead to free thought. - tattertech, on 05/22/2008, -1/+24The definition of theory not being taught correct is actually the fundamental problem here.
- TheCatsPants, on 05/22/2008, -2/+25Science isn't about free-thinking, it's about critical thinking. I'm all for free-speech, and for people pitching ideas, but science is like a kind of natural selection of ideas - only ones that stand up to testing can survive, the ones that don't go extinct. Or do you think we should teach Humorism as a valid alternative to modern medicine, and let the future doctors make up their own mind about which is closer to the truth.
- JoeVet, on 05/22/2008, -1/+24On a pure logical level creationism has absolutely no validity. Evolution is backed by mountains of fact based data and observation while creationism relies solely on the imaginations of primitive cave dwellers who came up with the story. Creationism does not have one fact on which it can base its claims. It is invalid.
- tattertech, on 05/22/2008, -1/+23And yet, every supporting of ID I've talked to has yet to be able to actually phrase their "Theory" as a theory or produce the supporting evidence of it. The response is usually "Evolution is wrong."
Whereas, if you ask a scientist about evolution they provide positive proof of their view. - RogueGenius, on 05/22/2008, -6/+28It's pretty simple. You go to school to gain knowledge, not increase your ignorance. "Intelligent Design" belongs in a mythology class. It shouldn't even be mentioned in biology. It's not biology, its an urban myth. I won't say it has no place in school, lots of bad ideas belong in school - but for sure it doesn't belong in biology class.
- localzuk, on 05/22/2008, -1/+22Tolerance isn't letting people teach nonsense to kids and teaching it either on equal grounding as evolution or with higher precedence. ID has no evidence to support it. It is not a scientific theory and therefore should not be taught as science. Sure, teach it in a religious studies lesson. But no-one should be even thinking about calling it science.
- inactive, on 05/22/2008, -8/+29Sorry, but fossils from 1 million years ago tell a more compelling story than the 2000 year old ramblings of goat herders and hasheesh heads. Reasonable, logical thinking people shouldn't have to tip toe through Christian's psychotic brand of *****!
- inactive, on 05/22/2008, -25/+4624000 people die EVERY DAY from hunger or hunger-related causes, 74% of them are children.
About 800 million people haven’t enough food to eat at THIS VERY MOMENT
5700 Africans die EACH DAY of Aids
We have Cancer, Aids, Polio, Yellow Fever, Influenza, Spanish Flu, Measles...
Billions and Billions of people supposedly have and continue to burn in "hell fire" for ALL TIME because they don't believe in the equivelant of Santa Claus
Yeah, some "Intelligent Designer", you have there, Nutjobs.
Believe whatever you like, but if you want me to believe it then provide evidence or expect mockery and ridicule. Do not expect polite debate. Religion has been given too much liberty to murder and enslave humans while hidden in the garb of "Faith". It and whoever believes it does not deserve to pick the fecal matter from my ass. Politeness is out the door by far by now. I don't give a damn what brand of ***** anyone believes until those beliefs begin to turn into laws and campaign platforms, you've overstepped the boundry separating church from state.
Thats what happening in this country. Don't expect politeness, Nutbars. - danogburn, on 05/22/2008, -5/+25I can't prove that there's an invisible green man flying around my head either, but since there's no evidence for it. We assume that he doesn't exist. Atheism is the most logical choice given our current knowledge of the universe. Find overwhelming proof of god and I'm sure that any atheist would change their views in a heartbeat.
- Murdats, on 05/22/2008, -3/+23so if people commonly believe stuff we should teach it? in primary school we should teach them about santa in science because a lot of them believe in it, how about the fact that bumble bees cant fly? most people believe that its impossible for them to fly according to the laws of physics, so should we teach this because stupid people believe it?
- enicholas, on 05/22/2008, -1/+21He was obviously looking for a *contemporary* author. Flavius Josephus wasn't even born when Jesus was supposedly alive.
- inactive, on 05/22/2008, -2/+21Did you give your kid vaccinations? Thank the study of evolution for it, cause prayer sure as hell didn't kill polio...
Evolution is a real process whether you like it or not. No matter how many lies, mistruths, and non-sequiturs you spout here. Evolution is a real process even if you're offended by it. Evolution is a real process even if you feel it contradicts your religion. The fact of the matter is that evolution is a real process, a proven process - a real part of our objective universe. So, if Truth is something that matters to you, then you cannot 'disbelieve' in evolution or preach against it. Then again, if you don't care about lying, deceiving, and misleading others, then you can obviously do and say whatever you want - regardless of whether it's true or not.
Evolution is biology, the evidence is there for it. The evidence for creation? All you can come up with is 'look around'? Not science, sorry. - HonestAbe, on 05/22/2008, -2/+21Dugg down for conspiracy theory. Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
- BaudiIROCZ, on 05/22/2008, -3/+22This country was founded on God??? No it was founded on FREEDOM. Freedom to believe whatever you want to. No one is trying to say you can't believe in creationism but it has no place in school. It's a fabricated belief that God created the earth and man as we are today 6,000 years ago. This isnt true. We know this. We have fossils. We have DNA. We have mapped the human genome and can see not only the chromosomal fusion that took place in our species but also ERV's that have been passed down through our genome and are IDENTICAL to that of our fellow primates. So there are only two options. We descended from a common ancestor or God placed these ERV's in the human genome to trick us into thinking we evolved from a common ancestor. Which one seems more plausible? Teach science in school. Creationism isn't science. If you want to teach it along side Greek mythology, that's fine but it's not a reality.
- TheCatsPants, on 05/22/2008, -4/+23"The only part of the theory of evolution that is testable is variation among species and speciation."
There are many different ways that evolution has been tested using predictions and the predictions have been borne out. And yes, you could track the mutations of a lifeform as it mutates, generation after generation...you really think scientists don't do this? Of course, when you talk about "different" species you are using the naive definition of the term rather than talking about two populations that no longer produce viable offspring. But you aren't interested in this, you just want evolution to be wrong.
So scientists that would look for evidence of ID would have to find something that could not be explained by a natural process? How would you know the difference between something that was supernatural, and something that we just didn't understand yet. Or do we just classify anything we don't have a full and comprehensive explanation for as supernatural? Like we used to do, before the Enlightenment, when we used to burn people for witchcraft. That would be fun. Let's all go back to medieval "magical" thinking. So, my cousin didn't have a miscarriage because there was a biological problem, I don't have definitive proof of that, so it must have been the devil possessing her neighbour. Or maybe she was being punished by God. But just to be sure, we should burn her neighbour alive, if she's innocent she'll go to heaven. - inactive, on 05/22/2008, -16/+35
Evolution is not a matter of belief it is scientifically verified fact. Evolution is the observed phenomenon, Natural Selection as the mechanism is the Theory. The only people who confuse this are cultists, the media and those without a proper scientific background.
Creationism is, these days, based on the deliberate promotion of known falsehoods. If that is what all religious belief is about, then we certainly do need to worry about other people's beliefs. Defending creationism as "just another belief" is using the same faulty logic that could defend a belief in Arian supremacy. An assertion of fact does not merit immunity from verification merely because it is cloaked in a "religious belief". Creationism is phony, dishonest, and just plain false.
Evolution is established reality, accepted even by the backward Catholic Pope. It is also the basis for all modern medicine, public health, agriculture and global environmental stewardship, and as such critically important to humanity's survival and well-being. Creationism is not just a harmless "belief", and defending it is indefensible.
If you nutbars don't like evolution then publish evidence that challenges it. No more debates filled with fancy symantics, just back up your statments with actual science.
Feel free to believe in whatever brand of bullsh1t you want, but when those beliefs begin to turn into laws and campaign platforms, you've overstepped the boundry separating church from state. - inactive, on 05/22/2008, -3/+21"By saying there is no god, you are essentially cutting yourself off of many potential learning experiences."
Wrong knowledge is worst than no knowledge.
God can't survive a logical examination.
Being open to an idea is fine, accepting it without any single piece of evidence is insanity. - jezsik, on 05/22/2008, -1/+19I honestly can not think of another western country trying to brainwash its citizens with creationism and/or "intelligent" design. Can you name a few? (Sincere inquiry.)
- GreatSunJester, on 05/22/2008, -2/+20ID is not a theory -- it is a faith. If any ID proponent could bring forth one example of ID, there would be a mass conversion to that faith. With Evolution (or Natural Selection), there are many examples in nature which can be examined.
- o0joshua0o, on 05/22/2008, -4/+22It's hilarious when I hear the argument that morality is impossible without religious indoctrination, especially since the God of the Old Testament is a homicidal maniac.
- inactive, on 05/22/2008, -1/+18Well they do have creationists, except they're quiet because everybody laughs at them when they speak.
- TheCatsPants, on 05/22/2008, -1/+18I have a PhD, and been a scientist for over 10 years. Yeah..what do I know...how silly of me to spend my entire working life, earning a crap wage, figuring out how organisms work. Duh.... I should have done something really useful instead.
And ID is a hypothesis. Cos no-one can ever, ever test for the supernatural. It's not intolerance, it's just being selective as to what can be defined under the scientific method. - winmywii, on 05/22/2008, -9/+25What is the bible? It sure the hell isn't fact.
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