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74 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but the only way hydrogen can be viable for road vehicles is if a fuel cell is used to generate electricity. Hydrogen is poor choice of a molecule (element, really) to store energy and current methods of generating bulk hydrogen (cracking water) is also very inefficient.
Unfortunately, what that means for the average consumer is that, even though electric cars would be far more efficient that the crappy internal combustion engine (which puts about 8% of the energy it derives from burning gasoline to the road), the net result from switching to hydrogen is that you get inconvenience of converting an engine designed to run on gasoline, less range, fewer fueling points, safety issues, a performance hit (even vehicles running off of LPG take at 10% performance hit) with zero efficiency gains. Hydrogen + internal combustion engine only makes sense if gasoline goes over, say, $10/gal.
Folks, if we're going to save the planet (and ourselves by getting off of our petroleum habit), then there are certain fundamental things that have to happen:
1 - We need to accept and embrace a higher efficiency mechanism for converting fuel into forward motion... There's only one viable technology and that's the electric motor.
2 - you're going to have to let go of the SUV or at least let go of the SUV/truck that American's are used to. Baring any stunning developments in battery technology, vehicle structures need to be reduced in weight by 35% to 55% at an absolute minimum. Americans are to used to the weight=safety fallacy (just look at the firestone rollover safety issue).
3 - while i don't personally believe that performance should be intentionally sacrificed (the way to an American's heart is with a fast, reliable car), I'm a realist and I acknowledge that there are going to have to be some modifications in driving habits. Unfortunately, due to American urban planning, this adjustment is going to shocking and critical. It's quite possible that we never manage to completely make the transition, causing a market for "American Only" vehicles to pop up. In the meantime anyone making the decision to live more than 20 miles from work should expect to pay full price for their energy ($5/gal. is in our very near future).
It's unfortunate that the average consumer doesn't know what a flaming piece of crap their internal combustion engine is (8% efficiency is inexcusable in this day and age). It is only the availability of cheap fuel that keeps them from learning the truth. - eigh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2daak, i disagree with what you say.
lets say there is always 30% humidity in the air. where did that come from? water evaporated from lakes, rivers, oceans, etc (natural sources of water).
if we forcefully put water in the air, then i think less water will be taken from rivers, oceans and lakes. i dont think the air will be uncontrolably filled with air. - brashquido, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2In response to daak's concern of using hydrogen as a power source en masse resulting in larger cloud masses, reducing the effectiveness of solar power. Isn't this happening now with global dimming? Global dimming being where microscopic partials of pollution collect in the atmosphere and act as a giant reflector stopping as much as 10% of sun (my very limited understanding anyway)?
- JoeKickass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Sure, the hydride tanks may not be flammable, but the effects of leaking hydrides aren't exactly safe either..."
Take into account that the vehicles that we drive today are, in no way, safe either. Go watch a James Bond movie lol. But seriously, its not all that uncommon for a car to catch on fire or even explode. I'd rather be exposed to some less than safe chemicals than a firey explosion anyday. - timmo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I love all the "clean energy" freaks - like those that bought those silly electric cars. Hey douchebags, where do you think that electricity comes from? If you don't have solar panels, it's coming from coal and other fossil fuels, most likely. There are only two, potentially sustainable energy supplies to free us from fossil fuels - solar and nuclear. Everything else costs more in money and energy to produce than regular old gasoline."
No, there are many. Did you ever take an ecology class? There's wind power, hydroelectric power, geothermal power, ethanol, biodiesel, etc. The big one there that you're completely forgetting is wind power. That's the wave of the future right there. Also, gasoline isn't very good for the environment, since when cars use it they expel CO2 and other garbage, therefore leading to the greenhouse effect.
"I didn't read anything in tha arical about it completly removing pollution, that just can't be done. The point, i think, is to REDUCE the amout of pollution expeled from vechicals. With all the vehicals on the road if even a fourth of them have this system on them, it will greatly reduce the amount of pollution"
Yes it can be done. It's been able to be done for years. Hydrogen cars (at least the good ones, not Governor Arnold's ridiculous Hummer) only expel water. No CO2, no pollution. - bebopredux, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"The basic system consists of two parts, the Hydrogen fuel system in your vehicle, and a Hydrogen generating system that remains in your garage. The Hydrogen generator is either powered by Solar electric panels or a wind turbine set-up, either of which makes Hydrogen fuel at virtually no cost."
No cost? Solar panels and wind turbines? Excuse me but, these are quite expensive my friends! Look, it's a nice idea in it's infancy. However, having those tanks inside the vehicle would make me a bit nervous. Not that I smoke but, that seems to be out of the question with one of these.
I'm still waiting for the Back to the Future Delorean powered by "Mr Fusion". - blacktone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I want a write up on DIY Hydrogen Conversion for cars, I mean it can't be all that hard.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i love when idiots like t-dot have no clue what they are talking about. Water goes through natural cycles where it changes states and balances out. When is the last time carbon dioxide, methane, or nitrous oxide did the same?
- daak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Nuclear power plants create the worst pollution"
The nuclear power plants may create the worst pollution, but the radioactive waste can be contained. Now compare that to the waste of burning fossil fuels, where all the waste is released to the air creating a more immediate problem.
"They don't really show the fuel cell and how its going to turn the drive shaft."
To this guy, the car isn't being powered by a fuel cell. It's actually combusting the hydrogen/hydrides just like a car does gasoline. Using fuel cells to power cars is the next step.
Sure, the hydride tanks may not be flammable, but the effects of leaking hydrides aren't exactly safe either...
"Often hydrides react by combusting rather violently upon exposure to moist air, and are quite toxic to humans in contact with the skin or eyes" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy)
Now I'm all for switching to hydrogen powered applications, but we have to keep in mind that flammability isn't the only issue when it comes to working with hydrogen.
As for the issue of creating hydrogen, I think that harnessing the power of fusion is key for mass-producing hydrogen gas. - JoeKickass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You might want to try readfing the whole article before commenting, the tanks they use will not explode
"Even opening the tank, or cutting it in half will not release the Hydrogen gas. In addition, you could even fire incendiary bullets through the tank and the Hydride would only smolder like a cigarette. It is in fact, a safer storage system than your Gasoline tank is."
Also, you do not have to buy the energy you use, they will ship kits with either solar panels or wind generators to make the production of hydrogen enviromentaly sound.
"The basic system consists of two parts, the Hydrogen fuel system in your vehicle, and a Hydrogen generating system that remains in your garage. The Hydrogen generator is either powered by Solar electric panels or a wind turbine set-up, either of which makes Hydrogen fuel at virtually no cost." - NightOwl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The sites "contact us" link is dead.
- thecapitalizt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This sums it up all: "Please do not call us for additional information.
All information currently available is on this website" wait, you mean you don't want the media to know about your world-changing invention?
BTW, I know you say you have these kickass tanks that use electric heat to squeeze out the h2 and you have pics of them, but its the damndest thing, i couldn't see any wires or connectors on your demo cars, which have supposedly run 50,000 miles. Huh.
But their facts wrong on so many levels. The "compressed H2 is a bomb" ide: no, this is completely false. If there's a puncture, the H2 just shoots out and dissipates quickly b/c it's lighter than air. Compare this to gas, which will pool and its vapors ignite easily, and you get a healthy fireball. I worked on building a fuel cell car for my school, and the only thing that we were worried about is if the valve was knocked off (put a nice guard around it and you're set), because the tank would at that time may go through a wall or two. Even then, ignition is not guaranteed.
"you'd have to find a source for liquid hydrogen which is far more expensive than gasoline" Dude, you get gaseous H2, and cool it. end of story. Even then, buying commercial tanks of H2 is expensive compared to gas (the equivalent of $10 a gallon.) - fonque, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1this is completely feasible, it runs on the same premise as using Nitrous oxide to boost horse power output. In stead of injecting nitrous oxide into the intake its hydrogen. The only trick is having a system that can effectively monitor the exhaust temp and air/fuel ratio. I dont know if a wide band O2 sensor is good enough. Since hydrogen is more volitile, you have to be even more careful of detonation/pinging. Plus they said that they do not advise running this kit on engines with compression ratios higher than 9.5, well most cars being released now run 9.5 or higher. Especially hondas, civics/integras can be as high as 11.0:1. Still it has my interest peaked. 7-10k is still a little steep. I would rather do the grease conversion on a diesel which is waaaay safer to operate.
- antoniojvr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I love the fact that nobody says how much waste is produced in the production of the hydrogen. Even Gas engines produce less waste than that...
- eigh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1flying llama one guy thing, youre complaining that there are bad chemicals used to make solar pannels? i dont know the exact creation process, but i can and will tell you what a solar pannel consists of; a couple of wires, a semi transparent silicon plate, and another metal plate. a wind powered generator uses metal, some magnets, and some wires. im guessing that when you make a solar pannel, the only time you COULD be expelling bad toxins is when you make the silicon plate (but i dont know taht for sure).
- MSDommell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"You'll be driving a giant bomb. In a collision, expect to die in a huge fireball/explosion."
the fuel tanks in the prototype hydrogen cars are insanely strong, they can easily withstand collisions/gunshots/whatever - Lansing, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0to the guy who said that releasing all the water into the environment would cause climate change- the most common way of obtaining hydrogen is splitting water with electricity (there is others but none are used as much as this one) thus the net water should be about the same
- malkdome, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0very spiffy article...
too bad the nay sayers didn't read the article completely... the tanks do not allow the hydrogen to be flammable (re read the stuff about the tanks). very good design continues the use of IC engines. and the issue with using electricity to get hydrogen, the coal used in power plants are a lot cheaper than the oil, so still net savings. besides with more advance thinking, could burn trash to produce electricity, also use the methane produced at the land fills. and to the one knucklehead, who's in charge isn't the determining factor on switching over, its the cost of the product. oil has been extremely cheap, compared to other power sources, so not a viable option to switch from oil to hydrogen. - Joe_rigby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Instead of every car creating pollution, the power plant will be the only place creating the pollution, as it would be even before the implementation of this system. If this takes off, there will only be centralized places of pollution.
Nuclear power plants create the worst pollution, there is no clean energy yet, but you don't have to plug it into an outlet if you can plug it into a solar cell array. (Not clean because of the wastes made making the solar cells)
Let's say gas gets to the point where you're spending $100 a week to fill up at the pump. (Some of you may be already) In one year, that's about $4800. If the prices come down on Hydrogen conversion kits, it is very feasible, and probable that this will become mainstream. - SmeRndmGy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0i want this. when do you think they'll make it for a 1989 nissan pathfinder?
- btdindustries, on 03/01/2009, -0/+0Sure, they've been talking about hydrogen forever. Do you think that they are actualy gonna spend the billions of dollars to retrofit all the gas stations. The network required to swith to hydrogen is intense.
http://namebrandcarparts.info - daak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Doesn't Hydrogen cost a lot per gallon? I mean 1 gallon of GAS is a lot, Hydro cars will never be big enough for everyone to use them."
A gallon is a measure of volume. Hydrogen in the gas phase doesn't like to compress, and so actually a gallon of gas contains less hydrogen than what you're probably thinking. The article talks about alternate methods of storing hydrogen where the density of the hydrogen-containing material is much much less (either as liquid hydrogen or, a better alternative, hydrides that exist in a liquid phase at normal temperatures), thus allowing storage of hydrogen in normal sized cars. - FlyingLlama, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Even if you use solar panels for the hydrogen generator, you are still polluting. Toxic chemicals are used to make solar panels. To the only way to get pure clean energy is to use hydrogen, filled up using a hydrogen generator, powered by wind. What if those little wind mills they give you use toxic chemicals to be created?
Think about that. Think Different.
llama (the FLYING one) - rimco, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1You people are ridiculous... I saw a TV show where they were comparing a fire in a gas car to a fire in a hydrogen car... the gas car smoldered and exploded, while the hydrogen car just set off a torch-like flame out the back... hell, look at the video of the Hindenburg... did it explode? No, it set on fire and feel relatively gently to the ground with most of the riders surviving. And what about the water going into the atmosphere? Well one of the byproducts of an internal combustion engine IS water, or did you think that stuff dripping out your tailpipe was some magical fluid that man has yet to determine? It's no different, except all of the pollutants from a traditional engine are non-existent. If you're too ignorant to understand a concept, don't post about it and make yourself look stupid.
- brbubba, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is a great site thats been around for a while. Hope some digg readers will become interested now.
- steely, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Who cares about the clean fuel, I just care about the the FREE fuel!! I think the best way to make this work, would be to get new tanks when you run out at your local gas station. They could fill it for you, and you wouldn't have the huge cost of replacing a gas station with a hydrogen one. One station could do both. The idea of manufacturing your own fuel could be a way to get home owners to go with a solar system for their homes. This could take some of the pressure of stations to make the switch.
- Shawn595, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I love the concept. I'd entertain the idea of anything that could get me where I want to without the use of fossil fuels. The only downside for me is that I live in a condo and have no place for the solar cells. :(
- generalleoff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I liked reading that site. They tell you what's ***** and what's not and pretty much leave you understand yer not going to get a miracle cure or anything witch converting to hydrogen. They appear to be on the up and up and the idea looks cool. I would be interested in putting one of them kits in an old 60's VW bus is they supported them.
- MaxFrost, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0from what it says, it can be ran with fuel injected engines with a compression ration below 9.5 to 1, which is pretty much anything without a turbocharger or the like.
not sure if the physics hold up for that, but I haven't done any research into the deal...it sounds feasable, h2 is a fuel after all. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Hydrogen isn't fuel, it's storage of energy. Like a battery. It takes more energy to store hydrogen than the hydrogen can release.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This looks cool.. maybe by the time I'm old enough to drive, this will be mainstream :) (Just 1 and a half years, so doubtfull.)
Josh - Holyfighter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I didn't read anything in tha arical about it completly removing pollution, that just can't be done. The point, i think, is to REDUCE the amout of pollution expeled from vechicals. With all the vehicals on the road if even a fourth of them have this system on them, it will greatly reduce the amount of pollution
- Twenty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is a very good idea, using a home generator. But still, you'd need hydrogen fuel stations across the country, which is a major problem. It's less of a problem with a fuel backup and that car given which gets 650 miles to the tank. I think people will switch to electric rather than hydrogen. I for one would like to drive a biodiesel car.
- Leviathan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I want to know how they control the ignition temperature of the hydrogen in the engine. It seems to me this is the probably the hardest part of the equation. If the Hydrogen is allowed to combust at high temperatures we will still run into emission problems in the way of NOx
- daak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"And what about the water going into the atmosphere? Well one of the byproducts of an internal combustion engine IS water"
I think the point is that there will be more water vapor produced if we turn to hydrogen power. Will releasing more steam into the air, for example, produce more clouds, thus limiting the future of solar power on earth? This is something we must consider. - Nick42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"I love all the "clean energy" freaks - like those that bought those silly electric cars. Hey douchebags, where do you think that electricity comes from?"
Well yes, obviously the energy has to come from somewhere. However, power plants and electric vehicles are both far more efficient and considerably more environmentally friendly than gas powered combustion engines. Don't believe me? There have been formal studies done that can back my claims. Check out this paper entitled "Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks";
http://www.evadc.org/pwrplnt.pdf - KidVicious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Did you even read the story? They come with a hydrogen generator.
- carmaster787, on 02/18/2008, -0/+0This is a very hot topic about hydrogen car. Another possible source of energy for cars -- one that gives off non-toxic by-products -- is hydrogen. Because its by-products don't harm the environment, the hydrogen fuel cell, which produces electricity capable of powering cars and other vehicles, has been touted by many as a promising replacement for the internal combustion engine.
Fuel cell technology is proven but nevertheless problematic. Like batteries, fuel cells turn chemical energy into electricity. A fuel cell, using a platinum catalyst, combines hydrogen and oxygen into water in a way that produces an electric potential, like that of a battery. In vehicles, the electric current is routed to small motors in the wheels, and the by-products -- heat and water -- are released into the air through a tailpipe. Some interesting website here:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/03/03031 ...
http://freestocksearch.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car- ...
http://www.gm.com/explore/technology/fuel_cells/ - daak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Eigh, what you say probably true. I really don't know what the effect of expelling more water vapor to the air would be, but like I said, it's something to think about.
- SirBriggs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Doesn't Hydrogen cost a lot per gallon? I mean 1 gallon of GAS is a lot, Hydro cars will never be big enough for everyone to use them.
- KidVicious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Sweet, I'm getting one.
- snapcase, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Cool. It would be great to see something like this become common at a good price. I would coment on all the remarks made by people who didn't read a word of either the digg or the article, but there are just too many and most of them were already comented on.
- daak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0eigh, the max efficiency of an Carnot engine depends on the difference between the max and min temperatures that the engine operates at. However, the Carnot cycle is very idealized and nothing will run at the carnot efficiency. Cars engines go through either the Otto (gas) or the Diesel cycles, depending on the engine. Real Otto cycles get about 20-25% efficiency, and Diesel cycles can get about 20-30% efficiency. But then you have to factor in mechanical inefficiencies, which can drop it to probably close to 10% or so, like ananymoustroll said.
- colinemckay, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0No government taxes on fuel you produce! At least until they introduce new legislation...
It would be great for a commuter car, give the range they are claiming -- just recharge (not refill) the hydrogen tanks again overnight. Not so good for travel if there isn't a system at the other end.
Heck, you could even use the hydrogen in a backyard barbecue or your kitchen for cooking! I don't think the system would be suitable for home heating though. - Mofo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0AWESOME. If we poured 1/8th of the loan guarantees or tax breaks that we give to big oil into this research things would be much better. Solar technology is also improving currently it takes more energy to produce a panel than that panel can produce over its entire lifetime but improvements are being made with research on the nano scale http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/050110-832.asp
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0As far as being explosive, IF hydrogen were ignited, it would burn almost instantly whereas with gasoline, the fumes are what's actually burning, so as long as there is more liquid gasoline, the fire will burn.
Some people compare hydrogen cars with the Hindenburg explosion, but people don't realize that the Hydrogen burned off almost instantly. The thing that kept burning was the highly flammable skin on the outside of the airship. - JoeKickass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"I thought this process sounded familiar, it's BOB LAZAR of Area51 fame!!
I heard him talking about his test Corvette and using solar for the conversion (who cares if it isn't exactly efficient)
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/268.html
I'm amazed that no one caught the coincidence."
Ok than I'm equally surprised you didnt catch this:
"Bob Lazar is the President of United Nuclear."
Now take a look at the email address at the bottom of the article, thats right, the car your talking about and the artcle I posted are one in the same. lol - nuxx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0i don't care WHAT any of the naysayers on here...umm...say...
ANYTHING has got to be better than fossil fuels
and i'm still pissed that the Experimental Fusion Power Plant ended up in France instead of Canada because of a bunch of trigger-happy morons who apparently don't know the difference between fission and fusion. - eigh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0 anonymoustroll, i have to comment about your knocking of cars efficency. i remember back in high school physics learning about the carnot cycle, or in this case the carnot engine. i dont remember alot about it, but i do know it has something to do with the way cars use gas and create motion. if i remember correctly, while cars use the carnot cycle (or something), they can only obtain a maximum efficency of 39% (or somewhere around there).
http://www.rawbw.com/~xmwang/myGUI/CarnotG.html
now maybe electric motors would use a different method to generate motion, but internal combustion cars will never be perfect. - bkaraff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I thought this process sounded familiar, it's BOB LAZAR of Area51 fame!!
I heard him talking about his test Corvette and using solar for the conversion (who cares if it isn't exactly efficient)
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/268.html
I'm amazed that no one caught the coincidence. -
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