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Adam Lambert sings the 2012 theme song, “Time for Miracles” view!
whowillsurvive2012.com - Watch the Adam Lambert music video for the 2012 theme song. See 2012, in theaters Nov 13
79 Comments
- DBiz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+53Are we reading too deep? Maybe I'm just being narrow minded, but I think we all favor the Zelda soundtracks for a couple reasons:
-They're incredibly well written and composed
-We all grew up with them
-They've stayed consistent through all the games
They're may be some other factors, but these are just my opinions, what the hell do I know?
*Continues listening to Song of Storms* ;) - Roger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+31@DBiz
You're a brave guy for posting your email address. Or stupid. - Roger, on 10/12/2007, -6/+27This whole Golden Ratio nonsense needs to stop. There's nothing special about Phi!
See: http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~markov/GoldenRatio.pdf
Basically finding Phi in nature and antiquity involves alot of number fudging. - Dominatus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+27Am I missing something...
These songs are all longer than 29 seconds. He says he only clips them at 29 for legal reasons. If that is true, then how is the 18 second mark the golden ratio anymore? If the song is 3 min, then something happening at 18 seconds has nothing to do with the golden ratio. It's only the golden ratio because the song is being artificially clipped at 29 sec. - Frozo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22I threw a 4 second fart and 2.47 seconds into it, I shat my pants. It was a beautiful moment.
- GreenGuy78, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15This is simplistic and inaccurate.
He has fit the music to phi.. that is bad art, and worse science.
Subtonic is right, it is about leading chords and natural progression. Non-western listeners would not find the same attraction to the chords and arbitrary musical landmarks he points out in the article.
/nearly wasted music degree off. - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17@miggz06:
Multiply 29 seconds by 0.613 (the golden ratio), and ask again. - Roger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Hmm... your comment is 8=1x8 lines long.
6+6+6 = 18
Coincidence? Hardly.
You're the ANTI-CHRIST! - Ironman11, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14Dominatus, he doesn't take the first 29 seconds of each song. He takes 29 seconds of the song from around where the golden section is, keeping the orginal song's golden proportion.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"Basically finding Phi in nature and antiquity involves alot of number fudging."
exactly, numerology != mathematics - lukas88, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Dugg because it is interesting speculation but I still don't buy it. People love zelda music because of the nostalgic feeling they get when they hear it. They remember it because they heard it over and over again when they were little kids. For the first time in history, children didn't have to just hear about fairy tales and heroes, they could play the part. And many of us did, FOR HOURS. Now that we are grown up and the world can be just as difficult as it can be wonderful, it is nice to return in our minds to a simpler time.
So why don't we remember contra music or xcite bike music? It may be your golden ratio theory, but I doubt it. Look at super mario brothers. Those songs are just as dear to me as the zelda songs. Or final fantasy. Some game makers put the kind of love in to those games that made the themes stick in our memories.
If you think about it, there is a very good chance the song is going to mix it up in the middle and show dissonance whether or not it fits the golden ratio. It just so happens that some of them do, but it is only a coincidence. - actual, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I don't think this really proves anything. Of course there are lots of golden ratios, nature is full of them. They're everywhere. But once you start going into the significance, the special meaning, etc., it turns into wacked out numerology. Still, dugg cause it's interesting and I love me some Zelda.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6That's my article.
Legally, you can post 30 seconds of a song. I put 29 second clips with the golden section at the 18-second mark for added effect - placing it at the golden section of the 29 seconds.
However, everything in the article is legit in original context as well, which is the important thing. If you want specifics, here you go:
1. Overworld Theme - 20 measures, golden section after the 12th measure.
2. Hyrule Castle - 40 measures, golden section after the 24th measure.
3. ALttP Credits - total is 3:52 in length, golden section at 2:23.
4. OoT Credits - 7:07 in total, golden section at 4:23.
5. TWW Credits - 5:27 in total, G.S. at 3:22.
6, TP Credits - 11:58 in total, G.S. at 7:23. - Bleeblaow, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Oh please, two articles about the stupid ***** Golden Ratio in one day. I'm going to vomit.
Every case I have read about the Golden Ratio being applied to human or artistic beauty, I find it riddled with completely arbitrary standards, example:
"In music, the golden section can be the measure that’s located at .618 the length of the song, and/or it can be the measure .618 the length of one section of the song, or the melody, or whatever."
Really, "or whatever." What this means is we'll multiply some arbitrary aspect of the song that can be quantified by .618 and the new number somehow becomes significant. - IMustBeEmo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I say the latter.
- Subtonic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Cool, but I think an analysis of golden ratios means you're thinking too hard. Why can't it just be that some composers are good at setting up cadences? An N6 prepares for your V or I6/4, same as augmented 5ths.
*Blows dust off music theory book from college* - Laarwick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Zelda music is the only game music i listen to with all the rest of my normal songs. It's just so amazing, i think one of the reasons is because of the memories it brings back of when i was younger etc. Great to see this article.
- modarius, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Nostalgia :)
- goosnargh, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Songs Bleeblaow needs to hear before he dies:
Rush - YYZ
Pink Floyd - The Great Gig in the Sky
Metallica - The Call of Ktulu / Orion
Dream Theater - Erotomania / Hell's Kitchen / The Dance of Eternity / Stream of Consciousness
Hmm... Yeah there's too many to list... - Piggycow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4That made me LOL
- bIuebonics, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4i'd agree. the music is superimposed onto out subconscious. any music would be after listening to it for 40 to possible hundred of hours. interestingly enough, i find that i have an easier time learning a video game song piano arrangement over any other arbitrary piece. i attribute that to the fact that i spent x number of hours as a kid pushing buttons to the beat of the music.. ;D
- DBiz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ roger,
That's not the regular email address I use, rather a backup email. Comcast e-mail... *shudder - Frozo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Nope, youre confusing that with the number 42. ;)
- Arkonnan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5One thing I particularly enjoy about "video game music" is the fact that it tells a story without saying a word. Words are over-rated in music. It's more fun when the story is being left up to my own imagination rather than being spelled out for me. This compliments video games especially because of the relative freedom you have to uncover the underlying story as you progress through the game. You're not just being told a story. You're part of it as it unfolds.
Instrumental music also tends to be more enjoyable when I have no idea who composed it, and have no preconceived notions of how it should sound. Musical scores for video games tend to be very liberating in that respect. Even more so than scores written for movies, where you don't have the kind of flexibility you do in a game. - Drakken, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4stmiller: Considering there are hundreds upon hundreds of sites hosting video game music (and full songs, at that), I don't think this guy has anything to worry about. If Nintendo really wanted to go after sites hosting their music, they'd contact the big ones.
- Salgat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Anyone have links to zelda music? Im talking the originals, not the remakes.
- CompIsMyRx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3As you know, it all comes back to 23.
- Subtonic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3There was some dust over the "i".
In my brain. - bIuebonics, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3ever listen to any of the arranged final fantasy albums? they're amazing... (zelda's great too :))
- RobbyDigital, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3while his studies are true for the most part, a composer should never over-analyze their work. this stuff will come naturally as your writing style matures.
- alexpigment, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4OK. I saw this and was pretty interested after hearing the title. I've been trying to figure out what makes certain songs INNATELY good for a long time. I do believe there is some science to it that most people don't realize. BUT...this is stupid. This guy just basically found some interesting note or part of a song and cut the beginning to lie 18 seconds beforehand. You don't have to worry about the math at all, because you would be going too far. And the way he tries to pompously rationalize this is just sickening.
- bIuebonics, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3the 18 second mark in the clip corresponds to the golden part of the whole of the music. this happens to be where the flatted second chord pops up. personally, i think this is a stretch in regards to why we find the music enjoyable. did he ever stop to consider that they're just well composed songs, with nicely constructed and recognizable melodies? the melodic component is why i enjoy final fantasy music as much as i do (the majority of songs on my mp3 player are final fantasy arrangements)... nobuo uematsu composes pieces with exquisite melodies... the same can be said for zelda's koji kondo. in so far as the golden ratio is concerned. the golden ratio is a precise measurement... his use of saying "roughly the beginning of the 13th measure" is a very imprecise approximation.
- habibbijan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I agree with you, but I think you need to blow a little more dust off those books. You mean Augmented 6th chords (namely the French, German, and Italian variants), not augmented 5ths.
*goes back to grading music theory papers* - cprincipe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Holy crap, using music theory produces aurally pleasing music. Who knew?
- TheBigBen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The 18 second mark is significant because it's the second that marks the golden ratio in a 29 second clip.
29*0.618=17.922
Rounded up to the nearest second.
It's the golden ratio of the clip, not the music. He's just being clever. - Roger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@dakusan
From the PDF file I linked to:
"It would take a large book to document all the misinformation ... This paper discusses some of the most commonly repeated misconceptions."
Here's another article that further refutes the importance of Phi: http://www.sonoma.edu/Math/faculty/falbo/cmj123-134
That second article also shows that Phi is not embedded in the spirals of nautilus shell. - KireGoTI, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm still going to say it's a silly theory. I have a pretty good background in mathematics (despite not having a degree), and it's well-known in the literature that the golden ratio doesn't actually apply to art or science. They even did tests with golden rectangles and found that people actually preferred rectangles around at a ratio of .56 (slightly longer than the golden rectangle). The placement of important cadences at this point is just a coincidence, really. And if you look at the songs, it's not a very difficult coincidence, either, since they're mostly based off of the zelda theme. If the original zelda theme matches the golden ratio, then it's more likely that variations will as well.
If you were able to look through music from various dungeons and shops and find the same ratio, I would be more inclined to believe that something was going on behind the scenes, but I still wouldn't feel that the golden ratio is what makes the songs good. After all, the golden ratio has been studied for thousands of years. If it really held a transformative power over music, don't you think the secret would be out by now and everyone would be using it? - scrag10, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3but how can you tell when it is rising action in the song, lots of sections in songs can get you pumped, maybe the one that is most exciting, is the second one; then what? wouldn't it depend on the person listening?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.thetanooki.com/2007/03/04/zelda-music-of-golden-proportions-follow-up/
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2You're absolutely right. That's my mistake. I was listening to the progression and heard tonic-leading tone and wrote 8-7 without thinking the chord wasn't built on the tonic chord, but rather the dominant. It should probably be a 4-3, and I'll try and check and fix that later. Thanks!
- miggz06, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Why does he put the Golden Section at the 18 second mark? Can someone explain this or did I miss it in the article?
- Arkonnan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3> Is there something particularly special about listening to music without words when it is entirely possible that the composer actually had a message in mind?
I didn't not say that there wasn't a message. I just said that I enjoy uncovering that message myself. Goosnargh listed some perfect examples. Those are some of my favourite tunes. - keyboardduder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Each song has an emotional creshendo. (i dont spell well) and that point seems to hit about that spot every time. Its one of those "common" laws like the laws that hearing a 4/4 progression 3 times loses the listener's interest (((Anyone say Korn? Or did you get bored in "falling away form me" in the beginning?"))). Observe castlevania and see if it matches up. Castlevania and Megaman seem to have the best music to me. They are really designed to rock the house. Megaman was a techno/rock and roll (no pun intended) musical and castlevania was a minor/penatonic or a combination of the two. Both games need to be looked at no one remembers the intro theme to castlevania 3. Heres my favorites
Intro- Mega Man 2
Intro- Castlevania 3
Intro- Mega Man 3
Outro- Mega Man 3
Bubble Bobble level theme - benjaro, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6The golden section of a 29 second clip is roughly at the 18 second mark.
- Kratisto, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Indeed. I can't get the Song of Storms out of my head ("unless I blow it out... with a bullet" ~Carl, ATHF). 18 second mark is for the golden ratio of 29 seconds. That's pretty obvious. As for the theory in general, I think it's valid, but not the only reason. While this probably has some subconscious effect on our affinity for Zelda music, it's could also just be that it's well composed and accompanied incredible moments in our video game experiences.
(I think the creepy organ grinder might have something to do with it as well... he always looked suspicious). - BuiltToday, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm a little perturbed that at least three people commented on the augmented 6th chords, but no one mentioned the fact that there's no such thing as an "8-7 suspension". Immediately following this dubious designation, the guy puts in parenthesis some comment about how it's "more music theory, stuff you don't really need to know". Well apparently neither does he.
- Roger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Read this article: http://www.sonoma.edu/Math/faculty/falbo/cmj123-134
The author specifically shows that Phi is NOT embedded in the spirals of nautilus shells. - Frozo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2OK, there is one very serious PROBLEM WITH THIS THEORY. When you are hearing the change for the first time, you have NO IDEA how far into the song you are to appreciate this supposed crucial timing. Yet somehow you are able to enjoy the composition anyway. Maybe this is because its just a good choice of instruments and chord progression. In general, you want the end of a song to build up to a nice finish, but you cant to that at the VERY end--so the last third is a nice place to start it.
- humpy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@bleeblaow
m pretty sure hes taking the golden ratio of measures within a song not the whole song. - Dakusan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@roger
i think the author was REALLY reaching on this, a lot of BSing trying to get diggs by talking about stuff not many people know much about, though I don't know enough about musical theory to retort it, from what I do know, you can put climaxes or odd cords or whatever where ever the hell you want as long as it is properly led up to.
on phi specifically, it's all technically a theory, it may not really have an important relation, but it may. Let's put it this way, it has many many many multitudes more evidence than a supernatural god-like being, and that 'theory' has a large portion of the world in its grasp. Unless a theory can specifically be disproven, it still remains a valid possibility.
and on that guys paper specifically, he only addresses some of the evidence on some of his topics, and leaves out a bunch of other evidence. For example, he only really addresses the body to navel ratio, and leaves out all the others, which obviously are of a lot more importance than a 'scar'. He also misconstrues, saying ALL BODIES FIT THE GOLDEN RATIO, while in fact, the general knowledge is the closer your body approximates it, the more attractive you are, which has been proven in more than 1 controlled experiment, I believe. The paper is very incomplete. -
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