What is Digg?435 Comments
- commiecat, on 10/12/2007, -12/+137RTFA. No, read the WHOLE thing. I don't play WoW and would usually care less - but I read the emails posted on the linked site and actually decided to digg the article.
His emails were pretty well-written (a rarity these days) and mostly on-topic aside from his rant about ATI and NVidia driver support. He posted documentation both from the TOS and from Logitech's site which suggests that an end-user might not realize that a keyboard (hardware) would be in violation.
In one of his emails he politely apologizes up front for using the keyboard if it was, in fact, a violation - something that seems to be pretty ambiguous regarding his situation. From a sheer customer service point-of-view, Blizzard treated this rather terribly. They offered no actual explanation of *what* their stance was regarding various hardware and no explanation of what exactly his violation was (they kept their vague description).
It's like taking a math test which clearly states "No calculators allowed" - and then automatically failing for counting on your fingers. Or something. :)
I think he genuinely didn't believe the keyboard was a violation of TOS, and dugg this because even Blizzard should treat its customers with a bit of respect.
-commiecat - Colosse, on 10/12/2007, -12/+62The guy didn't get banned because he used macros from its keyboard or WINE.
He got banned because he was AFK while his character leveled its weapon skills on level 25 critters.
He sated it himself : His level 60 priest didn't need much attention killing these creatures. So he didn't stay if front of the screen while the character was doing the boring stuff. So my guess is that a GM talked to/challenged him, he never answered and thus got marked as a bot. That all his fault for not being there.
The real violation here is leaving a 'playing' character unattended, not using WINE or macros built in a keyboard. - xmuskrat, on 10/12/2007, -11/+59They keyboard even ADVERTISES that it's for use in World of Warcraft.
Does Logitech support active violation of the Blizzard TOS? Or is Blizzard just treating their customers like numbers again? - tito13kfm, on 10/12/2007, -3/+48Built in macros do not allow you to cast 2 spells in succession with a single key press. This keyboard would allow you to cast a hex, start autoattack, wait some time, heal, repeat. All without ever paying attention to what was going on, completely unattended. And yes, watching a movie while at your keyboard is the same as going to make dinner. It is still doing an activity with no user interaction.
I recieved a 3 day warning for "botting" because I decided to have my little brother do some fishing for me. I setup a script that casts when he clicks, and all he had to do was wait for the bobber to bob and he would click on it to loot it. He loved it. I loved it. I got reported for botting. about an hour or so after he started he came to me saying he couldn't play anymore. I went in to check and he was offline.
I tried to log back in but couldn't. I checked my chat log and a GM had whispered him asking for confirmation that he was at the keyboard. Being 4 1/2 he didn't respond. Thank god the GM was having a good day and I only caught a 3 day ban. Although, I guess in all fairness i was going against the ToS in allowing another person to play my account and a 4year old trained to do a repetitive task is kind of botting. - victor_smithe, on 10/12/2007, -14/+57So someone who has a better computer than you, that doesnt have poor frame rates should also be banned because their hardware gives them an "unfair" advantage? Someone with extra mouse buttons should also be banned because they can access controls faster?
Makes sense. - ralfy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+40Link to the thread from the WoW Forums
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7506482 - Sirocco, on 10/12/2007, -7/+39The proper response would have been: "Okay, we're giving you the benefit of the doubt, but stop using the keyboard macros, or else we will immediately delete your account."
For a minor infraction like this, account deletion without so much as a warning (for a service you are PAYING for) is unacceptable.
World of whorecraft, indeed. - spectre, on 10/12/2007, -4/+28Let me be the first to say that I think we probably have too little information on this subject to make a terminal decision on Blizzard policy.
Why do most people automatically assume that this guy is telling the whole story and not just what he wants you to hear? A close friend of mine works at Blizzard in Irvine reviewing cases just like the one this guy is describing. And honestly, she has been very adamant that they won't ban you without a damn good reason. Why would they? Banning without cause would be a really bad business decision on Blizzard's part. In reality, they usually give you the benefit of the doubt.
Because it's all we have to go on, I'll argue from the position that he's telling the truth. I think he should be warned but not necessarily banned (unless he's been warned before). In my view, using a macro keyboard is no different from using 3rd party macro software on your machine. Same effect, and should be treated the same in terms of policy.
As for the keyboard manufacturer's claim that it 'works with' WoW, I'm sure that little endorsement doesn't (and shouldn't) mean ***** to Blizzard. I think he violated the spirit, if not the letter of the TOS. - eclectro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+22Computer = $750
Package of jellybeans = $1.50
Having your kid brother do WOW chores = priceless - bloodylip, on 10/12/2007, -31/+52Why not? I assume it's in the ToS that Blizzard has the right to cancel any account at any time for any reason. If the player agreed to it, and it's not illegal, Blizzard has the right.
- appidydafoo, on 10/12/2007, -13/+33WOW is a lame excuse for a game and a horrible timesink, but this is pretty outrageous on behalf of Blizzard. People are invested emotionally and financially (time=money, aside from monthly fee) that to provide this level of service and communication in the event of a summary ban is downright criminal. To whit "I have played WoW for nearly 3000 hours. I have now spent close to 300 Euros on your game."... and they ban him because he didn't respond to some op message when he was half-zoned out and watching a movie, running a mob? Sorry, that's weak. Programmed key limits... what does that even mean? Every key on your board is ***** programmed, and they allow macros already. Who decides these arbitrary and subjective limits and then cuts people off who've devoted (wasted) 3000 hours of their life on something like this? Blizz is robbing them blind, of their life and their funds... the least they can do is not take their access away for superfluous reasons.
- phronko, on 10/12/2007, -8/+28He was borderline cheating, but Blizzard's response - and most of all, their refusal to communicate - is unacceptable. Bad Blizzard.
- klang, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20so, something like this: http://www.kangoojumps.com/images/Products/big/KJ-XK-sp2.jpg would be totally acceptable?
- vigil, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21Ok, I'm confused...
Dude admits he was not paying attention to the game and using a macro and the /DND command to afk level his priest in weapons from 270-300.
If someone walks up to you, you have DND up, an afk message informing people you are not looking at the game but watching a movie instead, and yet your character is still there in game hitting creatures, and you are surprised by the fact that someone might report you for botting you are a moron.
Hardware or software it doesn't matter. He created a macro to minimize his interaction with the game so he could do something else while playing. This is clearly against the TOU/EULA (as it is with many other games) and is also clear in their "exploitation policy."
I seriously feel sorry for the guy, especially if it had been solely related to his purchase of the keyboard, but the wording of his messages clearly indicates many other factors that assisted in the GMs decision. - ZombieLordzero, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19there is a nice little problem with telling everyone about how a GM violated the rules:
from forum TOS:
Discussing Disciplinary Actions
This category includes:
# Creating posts or threads to discuss disciplinary actions taken against a player, including chat logs and email correspondence between a player and a World of Warcraft Game Master (GM)
If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:
# Be given a warning
which means if a GM abuses his power and perma-bans instead of a warning/72 hour ban, you can't complain about it. if you get screwed over, your Sh!t outa luck. - spacemanspork, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17Yeah, it sounds like that to me too.
There's more to this story than he's telling is what I'm guessing. He says he's attending it, but he's obviously not looking at the screen for long periods of time while his character is doing something more complicated than one "auto-action" (ie just doing an attack). My guess is Blizzard's logs saw him doing the same actions over and over in the same pattern for a while. (ie attack for 2 minutes, cast renew on self, attack for 2 minutes, cast renew on self, find new mob) They probably then messaged him once or twice and got no response and his character continued to attack, cast, attack, cast, find new mob.
I mean he got logged out of the frickin' server while he was playing. I've been logged out of the server before too but that was when I left myself in town and went to eat lunch for an hour (not counting server hiccups),. The way I figure it there's probably two most likely stories
1) Blizzard f'ed up. Big time. This guy was not botting but they think he was and Blizzard's being stubborn which is really stupid.
2) This guy is a liar. Blizzard is being so blunt with him because they have flat out evidence he was botting.
Since Blizzard all in all is a company, they would be all over charging some schlub 15/month more. For them to decide to PERMANENTLY cut themselves off of a source of 15/month, the crime has to be serious enough and proven that it was done.
So I'm not going to take a definite side on this one but I'm going to lean toward Blizzard's side. - burke, on 10/12/2007, -6/+19It's not about whether they've covered their asses to legally allow them to do this, it's whether this is justified. Just because you have the legal right to play with the breaker box when your brother is on the last level in doesn't mean it's a nice -- or justified -- thing to do.
- Lumiras, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12I've been using the Logitech G15 for about 3 months with WoW and they haven't e-mailed me about it at all. Chances are, like a previous poster said, he was probably accessing parts of the program to put it up on the LCD panel.
Still, I think the guy should have a fair chance to appeal his banning, because him using the keyboard doesn't give him that much of an advantage - Ignathius, on 10/12/2007, -7/+17"But you got a warning and he didn't. How would you feel if your account was terminated instead?"
that's my point.
Blizzard doesn't just say 'opp. there's a botter. ban him!'. there's a process they go through.
he was given a notice of account suspension so Blizzard could investigate the incident.
he was found to be botting, and put on final warning.
he botted again, and got banned.
believe me, i know how the Blizzard system works when it comes to botting in WoW.
i promise you 100%, this guy isin't telling the whole story. but then again, non of the botters that get cought and whine about it, ever do. - Gaferion, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15I see advertisements online for buying WoW gold all the time ... but I think everyone who plays the game knows that Blizzard doesn't allow that. Just cause Logitech is 'reputable' doesn't mean whatever they say is correct. And I am sure that some uses of their keyboard macros ARE OK ... but obviously there are some uses that are not ...
- Wombat3, on 10/12/2007, -21/+30WoW players need to digg this, Blizzard shouldn't be able to just arbitrarily ban people and then ignore them.
- lordbelial, on 10/12/2007, -11/+20Now that is just complete BS. I'm sorry that you cannot afford a better keyboard or a mouse with more buttons than him. Get a life. That's like saying someone with the latest and greatest optical mouse is "cheating" against some with an old serial roller mouse in an FPS.
- galfridus73, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10He wasn't banned for using the keyboard - he was banned for using the keyboard to operate the character as a bot.
He was banned for "botting", and setting up macros to handle that while he wasn't actually attending the character. Blizzard doesn't care really care what keyboard he was using (and this is the point he doesn't seem to get, either), Blizzard point-blanky stated: "Thank you for explaining your situation further, however the fact still remains; your character was found interacting with the surroundings unattended and the advantage gained from this is a clear violation to both our Term of Use and a common sense of fair play."
In myopinion, he was banned correctly and well within reason. As an FFXI player, I would be pissed to find someone doing this sort of thing. If he was using the macros and attending to the character, then he shouldn't be punished, no. But he screwed himself when he stated: "As you might very well know, this takes hours, and while I was training my different weapon skills by pressing the macro keys and healing myself every now and then, I watched some movies on my TV, because fighting a level 25 healing mob doesn't require much attention if you're a level 60 priest."
The dude dug himself into a hole, he's crying foul because he doesn't think it's fair, but all of us who actually attend their characters in MMORPGs appreciate this sort of move. He can dig himself out of the hole if he just reads between the lines in Blizzard's comments... but he's not.
So, in the end... no digg, and I'm reporting the story as inaccurate. - Iconoclast5000, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11From the WOW TOS:
"This Agreement is effective until terminated. Either party may terminate this Agreement immediately by delivering to the other party written notice of such termination or by terminating the Account. In the event that you terminate or breach this Agreement, you will forfeit your right to any and all payments you may have made for pre-purchased game access to World of Warcraft. You agree and acknowledge that you are not entitled to any refund for any amounts which were pre-paid on behalf of the Account prior to any termination of this Agreement. Blizzard Entertainment reserves the right to terminate this Agreement without notice, if, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole and absolute discretion, you fail to comply with any terms contained in these Terms of Use or the World of Warcraft EULA."
Legally he hasn't got a leg to stand on. Yes Blizzard is being an ass but that will not help him as he agreed to the TOS. - lordbelial, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14The biggest problem right now facing World of Warcraft is the mentality of its GM's and their absurd suspensions policy. At one point they were banning people because the rogue and hunter had abilities that allowed guilds to bypass raiding content and go straight to the boss. Is this hacking? Absolutely not. Its lazy programming and inadequate testing. Secondly, there are many bugs in the game that can be viewed as hacking. A priest with slow fall can walk up steeper inclines than classes that do not have this skill. Guess what. Several priests were banned before blizzard fixed this bug in the next patch. Blizzard takes absolutely no time to actually investigate a situation.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com.nyud.net:8080/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7506482
Coral Cache in case it gets deleted - Legion303, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12This is lame. Blizzard never said his keyboard was the reason he was banned, only that his character was played unattended. In his very first email to them, he questions the use of the keyboard as a possible violation of the TOS, so it was obviously something he had considered...and should have asked about beforehand if he thought it might get him banned. If Blizzard doesn't want his money, that's their decision, whether he was using a keyboard that made it easier to play or whether they just didn't like his name. He needs to stop whining and take up another hobby.
- schrodingercat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11The bottom line, it seems to me, is that Blizzard did not make explicitly clear why this player was banned. Their email says "botting" but this is incredibly vague. The player's suggestion of WINE or his Logitech keyboard was not refuted nor confirmed, and in the end, nobody gained or learned anything from this instance. Why does Blizzard threaten to ban or close accounts? Because they want to encourage a healthy and fair playing environment. But, if you're not even entirely sure what you did wrong, as is the case here, what's the point of banning? It teaches nobody a lesson. This is just an example of a poorly handled case by Blizzard.
- quasipalm, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12"I think he genuinely didn't believe the keyboard was a violation of TOS, and dugg this because even Blizzard should treat its customers with a bit of respect."
It's not about the keyboard -- the guy knows this but is playing dumb acting like Blizzard cares what keyboard / OS he uses.
If you're caught interacting in WoW while away from your computer -- you're busted. Plain and simple. This guy's character was caught leveling while he was off doing something else.
Sorry you lost your account, but you broke (or at least bent) the rules and were caught -- you should have known what you were getting into.
As to why anyone would automate game playing is another issue entirely. It's like making a robot that will ski the Alps for you. ;-) - Jams, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15pwnd
Like that kid who was wackin off to the elf in WoW... it was on digg a couple of days ago... anyone pleease have a link: best video ever!
I found this:
http://www.yikers.com/video_dude_gets_caught_jerking_off_to_world_of_warcraft.html - pixelwerx, on 10/12/2007, -12/+19Even the best sneakers don't do the running for you. No digg.
- drw2583, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I did some math on this and found some shocking results.
This game has been out a little over two years...roughly 730 days. He claims to have spent around 3,000 hours, or 125 days playing this game.
Figure that he got around 8 hours of sleep a day for 730 days, he slept for roughly 243 days.
Add 243 and 125 and you get 388. So he has spent over one year of the last two years of his life sleeping or playing WoW. This excludes times he was required to work as well. Basically, this guy is spending every moment of his freetime playing World of Warcraft.
Blizzard did him a favor by banning his account; maybe now he'll go out and GET A LIFE, but I doubt it. He probably already purchased another copy of the game and levelled himself up. - ccanni1028, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9"it's still *automated* playing that doesn't require you to be there (even if you're in front of it while it's running)."
What he was doing wasn't automated playing, he had to sit there and push the button to give the command.
"he was given a notice of account suspension so Blizzard could investigate the incident.
he was found to be botting, and put on final warning.
he botted again, and got banned."
What do you mean "he botted again, and got banned"? Once they froze his account, he never got back on. He couldn't have botted again, even if he were botting in the first place (which he wasn't). - Brilhasti, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Considering WINE a 3rd party program for which Blizzard would ban people is completely assinine. Is Voice Chat software going to get me banned too then? It's 3rd party and helps with gameplay. Thanks for participating but come up with a new point. WINE doesn't even give you an advantage. It simply allows the application to run.
- dr00dfv, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9This guy sure has an ego to stroke, "I'm a network engineer for an ISP" and "I'm no kid, most kids don't work for an ISP"
blah, blah...I think I would ban him for the ego, let alone the 'unfair advantage' he created for himself. - DJNewStyle, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9If there were programs that could play the entire game for you (like there are for most MUDs) you would probably be shocked that Blizzard doesn't want users to run it. Keep in mind that this is a GAME that you PLAY. It's not a process you leave running and occaisionally check.. "Oh hey.. I've leveled again. Well, time to download more Hentai."
I know they're just macros, but still. It is computer assisted automation and its unfair. It is just like maphacks in StarCraft. Honest players get screwed because you've found a way to take the effort out of the game. - defubar, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11I do not even play WoW and feel he should have at least been warned first or had his account suspended for a few days. It would also be nice if Blizzard gave him more information or maybe explained exactly why they "know" he was using illegal third party software.
- aguita, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7The question of using this keyboard has come up many times on the general forums for WoW. The GMs and CMs have both indicated that using the keyboard is illegal and against the TOS.
However, there has not been an official statement by blizzard to all the subscribers. Therefore, only the people who goto the forums and read them (maybe 10% at most??) would have any idea. Of those 10%, a high estimate might indicate that 5% have actually seen the posts by the CMs I would guess.
Seeing as how such a low population of the playerbase actually knows that this is against the rules, I would believe that Blizzard should send out a public letter to the playerbase indicating that the use of the keyboard is against the ToS. The player in question should not be banned -- should be warned only.
**UPDATE**
After reading the article more thoroughly, he was banned for using a bot service to increase his weapon level skill on a priest. It is clear in the ToS that any bot programs are against the ToS. - NoahK, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9It's cheating because using macro's to automate tasks when you are not at the keyboard is in violation of Blizzard's TOS. The agreement you clicked "I agree" to. The cheating is Blizzard's definition, not mine.
- CaptainMal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7No, the keyboard itself is not illegal. However, compiling macros with it (third party software) in order to skill up in game with no risk or need for you to watch it IS illegal use according to the TOS.
He ADMITTED to botting and playing unattended. He says flat out that he's using macros to auto-switch weapons AND HEAL HIMSELF. The macro is not only switching his weapons, but healing his character so he doesn't have to worry about dying, and can therefore play UNATTENDED.
If that doesn't mean botting, then there is no such thing as botting.
Botting is against TOS. He was botting. Bye Bye Botter.
If only Blizzard had as clear a policy against whiners, then he'd have two major violations.
I have no sympathy. WoW is the easiest MMO on the market BY FAR. Too tough for this guy though. If you don't like the game enough to play it, then don't play it. - badnewsblair, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8This is my take on the whole article. The guy did a great job of stating his case and apologizing for violating the terms of service, if he in fact did so by using the Logitech Keyboard. As usual, the title isn't really accurate. Thus is digg.
However, Blizzard is very (VERY) strict about cheating their games. They have been since the Trainers in Diablo fiasco. Anyone here old enough to remember that one?
This is a game that takes a lot of time and resources to maintain. It costs players money on a monthly basis. Some players do whatever they can to gain an advantage. They feel it is their right since they pay a good amount of actual money to play (such as this player involved). However, he cannot say he didn't gain any advantage over a "normal" player by upping his Weapon skills. This detemines damage and accuracy and just about anything involved in combat.
He plainly states he was using a macro to attack a healing monster while he watched movies. It doesn't matter if that movie is on his computer or on a television. That is cheating. Is it as wrong as using a bot to farm gold or whatnot? Probably not. But he was not active with his character while it was gaining an advantage. This is CLEARLY against Blizzard's Terms of Service.
I definitely side with Blizzard on this one and hope they continue to be strict. However, where they DID fail was in properly responding to this gentleman. When it involves the complete cancellation of a person's account where they have spent hundred's of dollars, I think Blizzard needs to clearly and comprehensively outline why the person is in violation. - DJNewStyle, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Every Basketball player wears sneakers. That's the standard. Let's say they invent rocket propelled spring loaded sneakers which allow you to jump 15 feet into the sky and cross the full-court in 1 second. You think the NBA is going to allow this?
Its the same thing with corked bats, pine tar in Baseball.
Unfair advantage. - travisxt97, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13Blizzard does have the right to do it. But people also have the right to be pissed and complain. Having the right to do something doesn't mean that you SHOULD do that thing.
- ebullit, on 10/12/2007, -14/+19"Field"? did you mean court?
- spacemanspork, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Have you ever considered that the people claiming they were ripped off were lying or not telling the whole truth?
Remember Blizzard has nothing to gain from banning characters like this. Blizzard is doing this to make the experience nicer for OTHER non cheating players. If Blizzard keeps these guys playing BLIZZARD profits. If Blizzard bans these people, Blizzard LOSES. Keeping these players = 15/month. Banning these players = 0/month. Financially Blizzard wants to keep these players. Why would anyone STOP someone from paying them 15/month? The only reason Blizzard would ban anyone is because they're afraid letting these people play more ruins the experience for other people. Ruining the experience for other players = other players leaving.
And of course everyone's going to proclaim innocence when they get caught. I've seen a lot of cheaters get caught and they all say they're innocent or that it's a misunderstanding. I've never heard of anyone getting banned that was legit. I've heard of people getting banned before though and in those cases, they did deserve it. - KyleRayner, on 10/12/2007, -26/+31Exactly. The game offers in-game macros, but they are powerful enough to only help you, not enable you to cheat. It takes him hours to get weapons skills up to 300? Cry me a river, it took me days. This guy is cheating, good job Blizzard.
Thing is, this guy is a borderline cheater, who cares how fast he gets his lvl 60 priest to face-melting status? Blizz needs to concentrate on bot gold-farmers and the like. - ssj6goku161, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9he probably wasn't banned for using they keyboard, but a program that takes info out of the protected memory of the game and taking it into unprotected to display on the LCD on the board
Ive been using this keyboard for a few months and i was looking for a program to do just this, but all i have seen violated the EULA, so if you don't use it you needn't worry - jumpertk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Another thing that is interesting is Square Enix gives away this keyboard at some of its events but they ban people for using 3rd party programs (like windower).
- tito13kfm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Fishing in Wow is about the most boring thing in the entire world. It's more boring than fishing in real life because if you get drunk while doing it in a video game you are a true loser.
The most tedious part is having to place your mouse over the bobber then click within a set amount of time after the bobber bobs. the position of the bobber changes on each cast of the rod. This is where a little brother is worth his weight in gold (about 40 pounds I believe). He is so proud that he is helping his big bro out that he fails to see the monotony in it.
It also helps that I replaced the splash sound with a stupid sound effect that makes him laugh. Reward for doing menial task = more deviate fish for me. Now I just make sure to be near him when he's doing it so I can jump in and type if anybody whispers him.
Maybe I really am going to hell, but I'm pretty sure if the rolls were reveresed he would do the same things to me. - TheMuntik, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Unattended combat macro
nuff said
banning was too good for him. -
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