What is Digg?78 Comments
- hagingtree, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6This is a good thing...
but on a funny note, I posted the link on the WoW General forum (giving props to digg of course) and my thread was deleted within 5 minutes. - chris_hale, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Yes, you have the right to privacy....
But you give up some of these rights by agreeing to the EULA/TOS of this software. If you are concerned about what Blizzard is doing, and don't trust them to stay out of your private information, then don't use the software (IE: play the game)
At no point did the article state that they were transmitting any of this information back to a central server, all of it was hash comparisons.
This is a funny thing to worry about, when tons of people are downloading "free" tray programs (weather, news, etc) that steal more information about your surfing habits, program usage, etc. - JeffD, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I just checked out the comments to that story. I thought this was worth consoring:
[quote]
Spyware laws in CA
CA has an anti-spyware bill. Blizzard is in Irvine, CA.
Check this out, the bill states that a program cannot:
(c) Prevent, without the authorization of an authorized user, through
intentionally deceptive means, an authorized user’s reasonable efforts to
block the installation of, or to disable, software, by causing software that
the authorized user has properly removed or disabled to automatically
reinstall or reactivate on the computer without the authorization of an
authorized user.
That means, software cannot prevent me from blocking or disabling it. The warden comes with the game, is not talked about or revealed, and if you try to disable it, you get disconnected from the game server within a few seconds. The software is also spyware, because it opens all other processes on the system and reads from them.
The bill also states:
(e) Through intentionally deceptive means, remove, disable, or
render inoperative security, antispyware, or antivirus software installed
on the computer.
In one sense, programs which target the warden could be seen as anti-spyware. Interesting. Not sure if the legal ground is there, but it smells like there is something there.
-G
[quote] - vigil, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@JakenJade & Idium
You may view the Terms of Use by visiting the following website: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.shtml. If you do not agree with the Terms of Use, then (i) you should not register for an Account to play the Game, and (ii) you should contact Licensor's customer service at (800) 592-5499 to arrange to return the Game for a full refund of the purchase price within thirty (30) days of the original purchase. Once you accept the Terms of Use and register an Account, the purchase price of the Game will not be refunded to you if you choose not to continue the monthly subscription to the Service.
That directly from section 2 of the EULA. Look on the Terms of Use page, section 13 "Acknowledgements":
A. WHEN RUNNING, THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT CLIENT MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) AND/OR CPU PROCESSES FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH WORLD OF WARCRAFT.
Guess that about sums it up. Why is this news? - Ignathius, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3it's not really an invasion of privacy. the Warden client doesn't return any information to Blizzard unless it matches a known 'bad hash' string. so Blizzard never see's any other info on your PC. and if you're masking personal info to match these bad hashes, stop putting your personal info somewhere it can be comprimised.
- Rodalli, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I tip my hat to Blizzard for taking an active position in sniffing out cheaters. And though I doubt Blizzard has any interest in the personal information of users, I don't want my privacy compromised, either. This is an interesting read.
- fatsobob, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Either way, Im not gonna stop playing wow.
- jholdaway, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Ever wonder why they make you agree twice with every update? Thats them conforming to the CA. anti-spyware law. Anytime they install a bit on your PC they make sure you know. And they make sure that although warden is required to run WOW, it is removed with WOW from the add/remove control panel.
Niten your right to install only programs you trust, Any program with the ability (and permission) to send data to a server can transmit ANY data from your PC. For all programs you own that have Internet access, ask yourself: Do you trust that company to use the data they collect the way they claim in the privacy statement? (And I'm hard pressed to think of many non-internet connected programs other than my imaging & video.)
Anyway, as a financial adviser it was surprising to learn that some people still keep their credit card or Account/SSN information is in their "EXCEL" files or whatever. I hope they are just merely uninformed about the myriad of non-Legitimate companies that want to take data from your computer. At least you don't have to be informed for programs like quicken to encrypt the info and make the visible xxxx-xxetc.
*FYI* If the 'horror' stories have told us anything it is NEVER store personal info. Even before computers were common you were told not to write down your pin Right? Credit card and Account numbers should be entered ONLY when setting up online access with your bank OR setting up a credit card profile for cell/cable/amazon/etc. After that first time those numbers should never touch your keyboard. From then on only a username and password will be used with all modern banks and finance programs. - skjef, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Agreed. I just made a similar comment on the article's site.
It's all client side. NOT A BIG DEAL. - Rodalli, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2christ_hale: "This is a funny thing to worry about, when tons of people are downloading "free" tray programs (weather, news, etc) that steal more information about your surfing habits, program usage, etc."
I don't think that's the target audience of this article, and really, you can' do anything about stupid computer users who open themselves up for these attacks. Never download anything from a vendor you don't know or trust. Can you really pity these people? I'm a computer technician. Ignorance is bliss for me. Whenever some nitwit or their kids downloads one of these "free" programs, a dollar gets its' wings. It then immediately relocates itself to my wallet. - ciphex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Regardless of whether it is doing damage or sending out information it is really good to know how they are achieving their goals and how their code works.
Good read. Digg++ - CyberWindCloud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1C'mon...there is gotta be a way that prevent cheating and respect privacy at the same time.
Blizzard's method...I don't like it. - springbok, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Either way, Im not gonna stop playing wow."
QFT! - Mirth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Seriously, if this is what's needed to be done to combat cheating, Let it be.
- Bigfat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You know, the first time you see a floater, or a Chinese gold farmer, you'll understand why this is in here. I commend them, this is a game we pay a lot of money a year to play and the last thing I want to see at the end of the day is some jerk selling 500g on eBay for 60 bucks. And besides, this is all client side, so no, there's no security risk whatsoever. JalenJade, if the store won't take the software back(per the EULA's instructions) contact Blizzard within 30 days for a full refund. Kind of a crappy Catch 22 isn't it?
- lart, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"These strings can easily contain social security numbers or credit card numbers, for example, if I have Microsoft Excel or Quickbooks open w/ my personal finances at the time."
I wonder what version of excel and quickbooks he's using? unless he's file is named with the ss or cc number... any way I bet most other anti cheat programs punkbuster/vac2 do some stuff that's along the same lines. - agentdero, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"It's all client side. NOT A BIG DEAL."
This is such a dangerous frame of mind. Since when should a user-land program access anything outside of it's realm of memory, and data. Some programs, yes, may need to fish data from elsewhere. But imagine a scenario where Windows Media Player looks for Limewire installations, or Kazaa, etc, and then fishes through their data for pirated material; it's all client side, NOT A BIG DEAL, right? Hey, WMP would only report you to Microsoft and/or the RIAA if you had been pirating music, it's all client side right? Not a big deal right?
Unless you are running something, like the Google Desktop Search, or anti-virus software (actual, none of that spyware nonsense) to where it's implicitly known that it'll will search through other "stuff", then it would not be a big deal.
It's my machine, IT IS A BIG DEAL. Blizzard and everybody else should keep their grubby paws off my data. - astyler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If you think its an invasion of privacy, read how it works again. First off, data on your computer is being read by a process (warden) that's running on your computer. This information is never stored or sent anywhere, and warden makes the hash and discards the original information. Even if it sent off the hashes to Blizzard instead of comparing them locally, they could never be reverse engineered to obtain the original data.
Also, in reference to the comment a few above about CA law, I think the person from that board you quoted is wrong. Warden does not prevent you from closing it. If you close the process, it ends, and it does not restart without your permission as it only launches with world of warcraft. (and warden doesn't disable security programs-- this behavior is referring to the mytob behavior).
If anything, warden protects privacy, a well designed hack could potentially obtain personal data from in-game mail. - bland, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Not Hostile Spyware" is a good description. Anyone with any sense can see that there's no intent to scam here, but the intent to prevent scamming (in the game). That's a good thing, nobody likes playing against cheaters.
This does bring up a "slippery slope" type of argument though. What's next? What will companies devise next to keep everything legit?
What motivates blizzard to do this? They do it to preserve the integrity of their game, to protect their image and to enhance the user experience. Now, take those same reasons and apply them to any other company. Don't you think that maybe Microsoft could use the same rationale to do sneak something in with a service pack or a media player patch? Some people suggest the since it's client-side only, it's ok. Running client side code only, couldn't MS find and modify media files on your PC in order to protect their image and enhance the general user experience? They think DRM is a great enhancement to the user experience, do you?
Not meant to be a MS-bash, but just an example of the slippery slope. No, this isn't anything to get undies in a bunch about... but it's good to be informed and keep an eye on what programs are running to try and "protect" you and to "enhance" your experience. - vigil, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Neotribal
Battlenet Terms of Use: http://www.battle.net/tou.shtml
Acknowledgements section (9) again, items iii and iv. Similar, but not worded the same. I don't own D2 anymore so I can't tell you if there's another, more up to date, copy of either the EULA or TOU somewhere else.
@SAMO
Didn't find this all that ambiguous. Found both in a matter of a three minute search. I do agree though, in respect to what the application is doing it's interesting but I just don't believe this warrants an item here as it's generally drawn just to oversensationalize (Is that even a word?) the issue. (IE - OMG!!! BLIZZARD HAX MY BOX!!1!) - JalenJade, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Here's my issues with EULA's.. Each EULA says if you don't agree to it you should return the software. Each EULA can only be read after you open the box. Each company tells you to take the software back to the retailer. The retailer, (at least in my state) refuses to accept opened software returns because you could have copied the disk. Therefore, if you buy the software, the EULA doesn't matter because if you don't agree with it you just blew $50 you'll never get back..
Now if the WoW EULA has something about this 'Warden' program in it, then all's good you agree to that when you install the software... and if you don't well you're screwed so you might as well install it anyway. I just read the EULA for WoW http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html and there's no mention of such a program in there. So its spyware and should be treated as such... I'm betting someone could win a lawsuit with the laws CA now has against spyware.
Personally I don't want anyone to be able to see what I might be running at any givin time. Especally since I use the same machine for alpha/beta testing that I do for gaming and everything else. (what if I signed a NDA for that software and Blizzard's program sits there and sees I'm using it?) - DreamSmith, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Here's the issue.
Software houses need to protect their code, from piracy and in this case abuse. SafeDisk and SecureROM both also wander around your system gathering data, maybe not quite so particularly invasive, but at least the 'warden' doesn't publish it's finding to anyone (unlike some more common 'authorized' spy-ware).
I think we'll have to start considering things like, copy (SecureROM) and cheat protection (Punk-buster) will have to become more publicly accepted by the users for the benefit of using the relevant software. In a perfect world, publishers wouldn't need such software bundled to protect their interests (and those of their customers, which is you the software user). - samoscratch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1-"Guess that about sums it up. Why is this news?"-
Maybe because EULAS are usually ambiguous and this provides a clear image of the programs inner workings?
I found it a good read,
-SAMO - karras, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Damn that's some shady, low-down *****.
I wonder how hard it would be for someone to use it as a weapon, to search through peoples computers for credit cards number and bank account numbers, and then send them back to their computer. - Digital.Totem, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0They already have my name address and credit card number, I don't think they care about what kind of porn I have.
- xblahx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I imagine there should be some mention about the effects of this constant polling on the overall performance of the game. [your diety here] knows it lags badly enough for a LOT of people. I also assume that the more crap you have running, the busier the little warden bee is, as well, even on beefier systems. I'd be curious to know what the impact of the warden really is on game performance overall, just to get an idea if it's really worth it.
Otherwise, I generally side with the "it's a bad thing" crowd; such techniques can easily turn into a wicked slippery slope where companies steamroll privacy to their own ends. EULAs aren't end-all-be-all in terms of legality, either, whether you agree to them or not. I of course understand that there are Bad People(tm) out there, but... this sucks. To think I have to worry at ALL about some window caption or service/process information possibly causing me to be labeled a cheater or a thief, when I'm not cheating or thieving, is unsettling. But I guess it's what the world has come to.... *shrug* - elballo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0To be quite honest, why does anyone need to be having their checkbook app or any other app running at the same time as WOW? It's kind of silly if you ask me. For those afraid of their data being sniffed, there is a very simple way of keeping your data safe... don't have any apps running while you play WOW. (Unless you use iChat or TeamSpeak for voiceChat, of course.) Since i'm on a Mac, I make sure that no apps are running when I play WOW. We want the processor to be as much dedicated to WOW as possible, especially when in Orgrimmar and other highly populated areas. (By the way... I just finished creating a Mac game www.elballo.com (yay)
- Relgg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I am one of the people that got banned last week due to this lovely ap and I am not a botter or gold farmer or the like. I have been playing for 2 years with the same acount. (1 level 60 that took me a year to level up. Tier 1 gear, avid raider and guild leader to a large guild. Not the profile of a botting account or farmer.)
I can't even get Blizzard to contact me to discuss the issue. I got a form letter and no response to 8 emails, 3 phone calls and a fax to Blizzard.
SO those who say this is good need to think again. I would not mind being scanned and warned if there was something, but to just get a ban with no warning or information is absolute crap. - Zanthra, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I tried the suggestion to make a junk window with the name "WoW!Inmate" as the title, I started World of Warcraft, logged in, and entered the game with one of my characters and nothing unusual happened.
- whiteacid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Time for everyone to move over to EQ2!
( let the eq2 flaming begin ) - mikereads, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0To me although "the warden" is spyware, its not hostile spyware, because all it is doing is attempting to stop cheating--not send you junk on your computer, not checking what websites you go to. And its just hash junk--they don't know anything from it other then if I'm using something illegal while playing their game. I'm definitely still going to keep on playing WoW, its a fun game.
- Torrin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Good read +dugg. If nothing else, it illustrates how much trouble most game companies must go through to try to prevent cheaters from ruining online games.
- MeTaLiSk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Hello!
There is my opinion of this little ***** spyware:
I'm a huge blizzard fan, I played with blizzard games since lost vikings 1 then blizzard don't exist. I spent a lot of time from my life with blizzard games, and really a lot of it...
Tomorrow i've receive my new wow and I read news like this, its a little piss me off.
I can give a ***** my data stored in m$, its operating system (sorry I want to say winsuxx) only useful for games.
But i really want to cut the ***** head off who invented these ***** spywares.
It's not a solution from the blizzard, why they don't encrypt our MPQ files? it's better for the hackers...
I think it's the news of the day and it will disappear tomorrow because who likes blizzard that will be play with their games.
Eventually, blizzard lawyers already care about with this spyware and they will say X&@"+" Paragraph of my paper include this so sorry!
Yeah me too!
Conclusion:
The problem is the world rather then blizzard and these sick people who want to watch and controll everything.
Piece!
MeTaLiSK (c) - drjones, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0DOOD! EQ2 LOGS MY KEYSTROKES AND SENDS TO SERVER!!!!
- InnocentGamer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Now this is just my 2 cents, so take it as you will...
I don't know how many of you have played MMOs. Out of you that do, who has played Final Fantasy XI Online? If you have then you will understand what I am talking about. FFXI has a horrible problem with players using hacks which allow you to move anywhere on the screen, find any type of Notorious Monster, and just about anything. In a game with no jumping ability, it basically allows your character to jump. This has caused the economy on the game to just plummet. Items that used to be cheap are now millions of gil (money for FFXI) and in FFXI it's hard to make that kind of gil. Gil Farmers (botters/hackers/etc) have started camping things that sell for a lot. By camping them, no one else can get them and by using hacks, it's almost 100% guarantee that they will get them.
I am glad that Blizzard has put a program in their design that tries to find these hacks/cheats/etc. If they did not, you could only imagine how bad the economy would be and how hard it would be to get items you need. Square-Enix (FFXI) has tried to eliminate this problem, but it doesn't seem to work. There are fixes from hacks after every update. That's one reason I play WoW. It's a game that Blizz seems to care about and protect. Would you mind if Microsoft put a program out there that would look at your PC processes (which they already do) and then reported them back if necessary? I doubt it because at least 80% of users probably have Microsft Windows installed.
Like it has been said, if you disagree with the EULA/ToS, then call up Blizzard and get your money back. - MonsoonMox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is like finding out that crack is bad for you. You know you should probably stop, but it's too late by the time you realize.
- drjones, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0[quote]
...
That means, software cannot prevent me from blocking or disabling it. The warden comes with the game, is not talked about or revealed, and if you try to disable it, you get disconnected from the game server within a few seconds. The software is also spyware, because it opens all other processes on the system and reads from them.
...
In one sense, programs which target the warden could be seen as anti-spyware. Interesting. Not sure if the legal ground is there, but it smells like there is something there.
[quote]
I am no lawyer but I see the reasoning as flawed on both counts:
The fact that you cannot play the game without the warden is NOT the same as restricting you from removing it. Uninstall WoW right now and it will be gone. Spyware would not be. You can block it at any time by turning on your firewall and stopping WoW from making internet connections. It will not damage your machine in any way if you block or remove it.
If looking at your running process makes software spyware then all decent anti-spyware programs are spyware.
In order for a program that attacks the warden to be 'anti-spyware' you have to show that the program is spyware in the first place, which has not been shown.
But hey, sue away, blizz's lawyers need a new pair of shoes.
Malware is a very big problem at this point, it's organized crimes best new trick. But this is nothing. - tidu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0OMG SPYWARE
wait, it's in the TOS?
then why the hell do you care? It's their online service, comply with their rules or get a new game. - mrhags, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0lol
A large percentage of us 90% and over are giving blizzard are credit card numbers anyhow. To pay for the game. In addition to this i'm glad there doing this to stop cheaters. - jp10558, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0What does WoW do when it's not allowed to access other processes memory space, say like with Process Guard running?
- SirSid, on 05/27/2009, -0/+0good read and nice tip off
- h0dg3s, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Your private information is not being searched. Stop cheating at video games.
Btw, you're not allowed to reverse engineer software. Another company got into some trouble for reverse engineering battle.net by analyzing packets and building a personal battle.net server. Blizzard sued them.
That kind of pissed me off because battle.net sucks (gotta have broadband now, dial-up no longer works correctly even though that's what it was made for) and another alternative was nice. - BeefandBeer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0How I wish every MMORPG out there would have this anti-cheating system. Kudos to WoW for their effort into killing cheater accounts.
- richeyal, on 04/14/2008, -0/+0do u have any trouble in getting gold or upgrade
your power leveling ? if u do :)you can visit the
website on http://www.gamers777.com/ to get know how i work - cracka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Dug for an interesting article on privacy.
- Vektuz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It doesn't even send anything back to them. It checks your computer for cheats, converts them to chopped up hashes (which can't be read even if they were to be sent), and decides whether you're running a chea tor not (without sending anything to them). Then, if you are, it tells them you're cheating. If not, nothing happens.
There is no privacy violation here because no private data is being sent to them or anyone. Its all inside your computer and never leaves it
Computer programs have no soul and no mind, and can't "look at your stuff" and judge you. Its ridiculous to think that a program running on your computer is "looking at your stuff" as if its a person. Its just a computer program. It's only a problem if the computer program delivers your private data to someone else besides you. Which it's clearly not doing. just like your email program 'looks at' your email but doesn't send it to random strangers. - Tufriast, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It should be noted that if you use Cedega's Gaming client, run this game on Linux, you're fine. You can simply get around the sniffer by just 'starting another session of Cedega' and bam. The program will still interface fine with WoW easily - that is if you get advanced enough with cheats and what not. I'm not at all, but I think that's why they will never run a Linux version of WoW or any other Blizzard game. I am not really sure this will, or could work on OS X though.
NO ONE has posted whether or not this runs on OS X or not. If it does, I'd be really surprised -- but it wouldn't be the first time! - mooninite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0*NOTE: Cedega sucks
Wine runs WoW just fine now. Direct3D or OpenGL - 0nlooker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0now have you ever wounder why identity fraud has gone in the past 10 years? now it is easy to make a very large database of your identities with cards,passport,info,interests, patterns of interests, if blizzard wanted to do 1 of those databases what is stopping it? imagine how much 1 of these databases would fetch for a big corporate power, an endless source of customers, dig further,
an0nlooker -
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