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169 Comments
- ntpd, on 10/12/2007, -16/+119Let's look at the facts -
Audio: Neither Blu-Ray or HD-DVD provide any real benefits here. Let's examine in detail. DVD made improvements over CD by providing surround-sound, which was kind of cool feature when watching movies. CD is 16-bit/44.1khz ... DVD is 24-bit/96khz (in 5.1 surround-sound) or 24-bit/192khz (in stereo).
Blu-ray allows for 24-bit audio at sampling-rates of 96khz (in 7.1) or 192khz (in 5.1). HD-DVD only allows for 192khz stereo. however, any of this is pretty much unecessary. most big-budget hollywood films are only recorded in 24-bit/48khz audio, meaning that regular DVD can still do 7.1 surround-sound. in other words, "fill a movie theater with sound".
Video: This is a trick, and it just might work. However, Beta was better quality than VHS and lost - so we will see what happens. But we're not talking about the same quality anymore. Readers (or as most people know them - players e.g. CD "player", DVD "player") are starting to read mutiple formats, or types of encoded data, more and more. For example, your typical car stereo 10 years ago read tapes and possibly CD. Now, a typical $200 car stereo reads MP3's (and tons of other stuff you've never even heard of)... usually off CD and sometimes even from DVD.
Formats (or, as audio/video people call them, "codecs") for video today include a new standard called H.264. It's what allows your MacBook Pro to send high-quality video of you and 4 of your closest friends to your LCD screen via the built-in camera. It looks really nice. About as nice as HD, or High-Definition. Actually, it can theoretically send video in all the HD approved formats. It can actually send better video than the US approved HDTV standards - especially if you know what CIF, RGB, YIQ, HSL, and HSV stand for.
CD's and DVD's can hold H.264 encoded files... just like Blu-Ray and HD-DVD can. So can your hard drive.
Speaking of hard-drives, why would anybody buy a "player" for their new HDTV when they can buy a DVR instead? Let's face it: the computer is now part of our home theaters, and we don't need Blu-Ray or HD-DVD players when we have $100 600GB hard drives built-in to DVR players that could accept standard DVD or CD media.
Data: Blu-ray and HD-DVD single-layer are not impressive in terms of data, especially compared to dual-layer, dual-sided DVD9. both Blu-ray and HD-DVD do support up to 4 layers... meaning that Blu-ray is certainly going to reach 100GB. but 100GB is nothing!
it's going to take a few years of upgrades (see Sony's marketing manual, page one) to get us to 100GB disc-based data? No Thank You!
but Holographic Versalite Discs are cool. these things hold 200GB today, which is twice the maximum size of Blu-ray. by 2010, they are supposed to hold 4TB!!!
there is also a Holographic Versatile Card which is the size of a credit card, holds 30GB, and costs $1 each. somebody tell me that's not twice the capacity of single-layer, single-sided HD-DVD.
there's also something called a Versatile Multilayer Disc, which is currently 40GB and cheaper than either Blu-ray or HD-DVD because it uses red lasers instead of blue. it's capable of doing 1080p HDTV. it's cheaper to produce. did i mention that the readers and writers would be cheaper, too?
Final points: Uh... yeah, Blu-Ray is useless. What with online games, on-demand services (pay-per-view), and being able to load mutiple discs (yes, i know it's annoying - but it sure beats throwing down $600 for a console and $100 per game) - you have what's known as "full technology replacement".
Oh yeah and I'm sure somebody will mention something about the "porn industry" and how they will decide if Blu-Ray becomes the future or not. Guess what? The porn industry already decided the whole Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD argument. They went with DVD9, online services, and on-demand. Sometimes silence is more final of a decision than an answer. - Anubis2051, on 10/12/2007, -27/+122Yes
- phpirate, on 10/12/2007, -5/+70Wii and 360 are not using high capacity meduims, so theres no chance that cross platform developers will be using the space blu-ray has to offer anyway. With the limited number of PS3 exclusives, does more space honestly mean better looking games? Absolutely not. Companies compress data on DVDs and it works perfectly fine. If a game like oblivian can fit on one DVD with space to spare, I think the oblivian DVD is about 4 gigs, not even close to the DVD's maximum capacity, then other game developers sure as hell don't need so much space.
DVDs would of lasted just fine until the next generation. Sony is pushing the blu-ray for competition reasons not doing it for the gamers, they're doing it to ensure the success of their format, and thats all they really care about in the PS3 that I can see. Developers notice this too, and thats why a lot of them are waiting. - Vertabreaker, on 10/12/2007, -8/+68The price will sink the PS3 long before Blu-Ray will.
- radicaldementia, on 10/12/2007, -4/+62All I know is that I am perfectly satisfied with the quality and low price of regular DVDs and have no plans on buying any blu-ray or hd-dvd stuff whatsoever, including the PS3.
- terminality, on 10/12/2007, -7/+41No. The ps3's sheer size and density should lead to its sinking.
- Jugalator, on 10/12/2007, -3/+34"The price will sink the PS3 long before Blu-Ray will."
Depends how you look at it. Blu-ray is in many ways responsible for its price. ;-) - romainechester, on 10/12/2007, -8/+28@Ray
Blu ray IS Sony's own stupidity - MacGyver2210, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22I work for the division of Sony that makes the BluPrint software. It doesn't matter what the studios choose, it's the publishing companies like Technicolor that actually produce the discs that purchase the rights to the Blu-Ray technology.
Yes, the BluPrint technology is a popular item, and Blu-Ray licensing is doing well, but at $50,000 for a single-seat of the BluPrint software(the only program which allows writing video to a Blu-Ray disc), it's a little steep to be compared to DVD or even HD-DVD at this point. Maybe when it's not exclusively a distributor-only format for video, it will gain the same popularity as DVD did. - crilen007, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20Hey MacGyver, you make the BluPrint software outta matchsticks and twine?
- FishyJoe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18Internet porn has far outpaced DVD porn. I expect the trend to continue with these next generation media. Porn has already decided the next vehicle for content, the internet.
- crilen007, on 10/12/2007, -6/+23That's funny, when I clicked on the link to this article, I was thinking of making a comment that simply stated "Yes"... and to my surprise...
- Ray_Justice, on 10/12/2007, -33/+49No,
Sony's own stupidity will sink the PS3 - eltower, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15The proliferation of formats is merely a ploy to slam the user into a silo where s/he can only make further purchases from one company.
HVD sounds very promising. However, the HVD Alliance, is to date comprised of:
As of February 2006, the HVD Alliance comprises these corporations:
* Alps Electric Corporation, Ltd.
* CMC Magnetics Corporation
* Dainippon Ink and Chemicals, Inc. (DIC)
* EMTEC International (subsidiary of the MPO Group)
* Fuji Photo Film Company, Ltd.
* Konica Minolta Holdings, Inc.
* LiteOn Technology Corporation
* Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Company, Ltd. (MKM)
* Nippon Kayaku Co., Ltd.
* Nippon Paint Company, Ltd.
* Optware Corporation
* Pulstec Industrial Company, Ltd.
* Shibaura Mechatronics Corporation
* Software Architects, Inc. (?)
* Suruga Seiki Company, Ltd.
* Targray Technology International, Inc.
* Teijin Chemicals, Ltd.
* Toagosei Company, Ltd.
* Tokiwa Optical Corporation
The Blu-Ray Association is composed of:
* Apple Computer
* Dell
* Hewlett Packard
* Hitachi
* LG Electronics
* Mitsubishi Electric
* Panasonic (***** Electric)
* Pioneer Corporation
* Royal Philips Electronics
* Samsung Electronics
* Sharp Corporation
* Sony Corporation
* TDK Corporation
* Thomson
* Twentieth Century Fox
* Walt Disney Pictures
* Warner Home Video Inc.
And: "HD DVD is promoted by Toshiba, NEC, Sanyo, Microsoft, and Intel, among others."
(all according to Wikipedia)
I have no real knowledge of the member components of the HVD Association, other than Kodak Minolta, Mitsubishi, etc. I only hope that in the incoming corporate fight HVD slugs it out, but it seems a leetle bit bleak.
At least I'll always have my hard drive for ripping DVDs (I'm in Europe, so sue me). - eltower, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18"Don't you guys think we've had enough about..."
Don't mix 'I' with 'we'. Different things. The subject on topic is a bit tiresome, yes, but this article is 'new' in that it provides another look on the subject, it's not just repeating anything and it isn't spam for that matter. - surfit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14CD has more to do with Philips. If it were exclusively Sony then I am pretty sure it would have died. They have a habit of producing technology that is somehow restrictive and therefore unappealing to other manufacturers, for example their flash memory format or their ebook reader system. They act very similar to Apple in terms of closed technology.
- skywake, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11"in real time"
.... so Sony says...
with "who cares about vibration"... the point is that they have said that its "not possible" to do something that Nintendo is clearly doing 10 times over. they said it would have it, and not it doesnt, how many other things are they going to drop? the PS3 has changed so much over the last year I dont even know what it is anymore...
the way Sony is going by the time its out there may be a 3rd cheaper version that doesnt have Blue-Ray at all. - Feanor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10According to engadget, The reader for the Holographic Versatile Card (30 GB credit card sized media) is estimated to be $2000, though, and who knows for the Holographic Versatile Disc (1 TB DVD sized media) reader. (The wikipedia article says $15000)
http://www.engadget.com/2005/06/10/optware-holographic-versatile-card-30gb-on-a-credit-card/
http://www.engadget.com/2004/08/24/optwares-1tb-holographic-versatile-disc/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9You've all missed the point. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are about copy protection. Let me say that again: You can't copy them. Sony/Philips/Toshiba don't really care if you can watch your movies in 1080p resolution with discrete 8 channel sound. There may be a mod chip for the PS3 eventually but it will be useless because YOU CAN'T COPY THESE DISC FORMATS. This whole thing is about digital rights management and intellectual property. If you really want to point the finger at what will make the Playstation 3 fail, point it right at yourself, and then go to your mailbox, pick up your newest Netflix movies, bust out your DVD ripping software and make yourself some pirated movies.
- RazorElite, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11This is obvious. There are just some major problems with Sony's decision. The biggest one being that Bluray must be the primary 'cause for the high price, which alone will scare off MANY potential customers. Plus, there is no format winner yet, so people are skeptical about buying into a format before a winner is decided. Thankfully, the PS3 is a games console and even if Bluray doesn't take off as a movie format, it should still be good for the games. BUT, that would mean that you were just paying that $600 for games in the first place anyway, not to mention, games still don't need nearly that much space.
The best case scenario is that Bluray comes out the winner, and in a couple years, games really do need the space. But that has like what...a 20% chance of happening? A lot riding on such low chances. - Feanor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Everyone knows its just a matter of time until someone cracks the DRM open on them, and all of a sudden you have HD-DVD Decrypter.
- eltower, on 10/12/2007, -8/+15Yesh, I agree. Besides, I don't have a HD set and I really don't want to have one yet because it would involve some form of payment with my arm and my leg. In any case, like with many other Sony 'innovations' I am compelled to look back at those which preceeded BluRay:
Betamax
MiniDisc
UMD
ouch.
One thing though. I caught an advert for the so called 'Blu-Ray' association in August's Wired magazine. It advertises a pretty compelling number of companies which back Blu-Ray, including Apple. I smell a rat, but I don't know what to make of it. - Karyyk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9In terms of video quality (which seems to be the big selling point of BluRay/HD-DVD over standard DVD's), are most people going to notice any difference? Is it possible for them to notice a difference? Considering that the vast majority of people DO NOT own an HDTV, I'm going to go out on a limb here (a really strong limb) and say no, to both counts...
- carve, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Excellent post, ntpd. However, none of those formats have the inertia of hd or Br discs. Holographic discs, from what I hear, are also going to be VERY expensive- especially writable ones.
I agree that electronic distribution is the way to go though, but we do need some sort of cheap optical (or equivelent) storage to back up our videos.
Very forward thinking ideas, though. - pathogenal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I think they will survive on ghettos, fashion fads, and sheer american biggest balls syndrome. Cause paying too much for something is the sexiest thing in america.
- Kelmon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6My position exactly. DVD support in the PS2 was great (quality of the player itself had some issues but the format was a great advance over VHS) and the world was ready for it. BluRay, as best as I can tell, along with HD-DVD, is not something that the world is clamouring for yet so I wouldn't be surprised to see both formats go the same way as Laser Disc - something for those with a load of money while everyone else sticks with the current format. I just don't think there is a big enough demand for BluRay yet to justify bundling it with the PS3 and therefore pushing the price up higher than necessary. A regular DVD drive would have been just fine.
- isthisnametaken, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Even if Blu-Ray doesnt become a standard, I think it will still be very usefull for the space needed for games 3 or so years from now. Even if they lose the dvd format war, it won't "sink" the ps3.
- MiDri, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@60days -- If I may add; Apple releases the Video iPod, sadly it is crushed by Microsoft's new contender to the Portable MP3/Video market. The Phantom is released, wowing all with its first title Duke Nukem Forever.
- deter1ii, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I think in today's society, where there is a market for Poker and Darts on ESPN there is a market for everything. I dont think the fate of Beta will happen to either Blue-Ray or HD-DVD, there are simply too many techno-junkies out there and so many will want both formats. I have a 360 and Plan on getting a PS3 a about 6 months after launch (so I atleast know what type of first gen problems there are with the hardware). So I dont see where it HAS to be a war, maybe the formats are the perfect compliment to one another.
- isayx3, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9This post goes to show if you write enough users assume its factual and will digg it up without reading or researching.
"Audio: Neither Blu-Ray or HD-DVD provide any real benefits here."
Incorporation of both Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD. It a little more than just bitrate.
"For example, your typical car stereo 10 years ago read tapes and possibly CD."
1996 most car stereos were capable of playing CDs. Technology moves even faster now...look how fast HDTV are selling in the last 2 years.
"It looks really nice. About as nice as HD, or High-Definition. "
As nice HD might look good on your laptop or standard TV but not on an HDTV
"CD's and DVD's can hold H.264 encoded files... just like Blu-Ray and HD-DVD can. So can your hard drive."
A cd or DVD can not hold a HD movie without some major compression...thus making it NON-HD
"meaning that Blu-ray is certainly going to reach 100GB. but 100GB is nothing"
100gb writable disc is nothing?
"but Holographic Versalite Discs are cool. these things hold 200GB today, which is twice the maximum size of Blu-ray.
Drives for this market will cost about $20,000 and will initially use 200GB HVDs, with a target cost of about $100 per disc. Nice! - Bob042, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6If you're going to say that the Core 360 system isn't usable, have you looked at the $499 PS3? That seems like a double standard, the lower PS3 is usable, and you don't have to buy anything with that?
- Harabeck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I don't think the PS3 will 'sink'. But I think Sony will lose signifigant market share. Let's face it, who buys the lower version of these things? The $500 version won't be an option to many people just because they can't stand the thought of not having the best version of a product. Then you have to consider the rumors that the PS3 games will be somwhere between $60-$100. Sony's ego can only push the system so far...
As far as all of the negative hype, uhh, these are Sony's potential customers saying how bad their product is. That's a pretty bad indicator. - brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5The problem with High Definition formats is that they're being released too early. Most people DONT have the equipment to take advantage of the better picture and sound quality. So why should I as a consumer drop $5,000+ on equipment just so I can watch Hitch in High Definition?
- Gremlinclr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Truthfully, I think it's almost impossible for the PS3 to outright fail. It has built in brand recognition that will be hard to top. Will it be as successful as the PS2? No way in hell. The PS2 owes alot of it's success to the DVD format and it was lots of folks first DVD player. But anyone with a TV could take advantage of the MONUMENTAL quality improvement between VHS and DVD.
With Blu-Ray it's a small improvement AND you need an HDTV to even see it, something only about 10% of the population has.
I can see the PS3 eventually selling 50 million units in it's lifetime. It might even still be #1, but no console this generation will equal the success of the PS2. - glide256, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Sony put way too much in the PS3.
I think they were betting on winning the format war then from the format war they would aggressively market the PS3. I mean it's going to be one of the cheaper blu-ray players and is a game console. This move would have been a stroke of genius had it worked. But consumers have not gone with either next gen format and now Sony might have to suffer for it's decision.
Get a Wii. - Murdats, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I wouldnt underestimate the hold large companies marketing departments have over the american public, It almost seems like they control your society
- fireflydigi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5If the Blu-ray format comes out as the standard high-def format over HD-DVD, then the PS3 would be a great value for a Blu-ray player at $600. Blu-ray players on the market now cost over $1,000. On the other hand, if Blu-ray fails, then the PS3 would just be a high priced gaming console. We'll just have to wait and see how the format war turns out to know for sure.
- aplardi, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10To sum up all the really long fanboy rants above... the PS3 can go one of 3 ways
1) Price is lowered for release, 3rd Party Support Returns, Sales Go Up. It reaches about number 2 for this gen.
2) Price stays the current price, continues to lose 3rd Party Support, and slowly fades into black, despite the initial amount sold on release.
3) Launch comes, there are not enough games on release and people start to second guess their choices. - Bob042, on 10/12/2007, -0/+51) It's made by Sony. They don't exactly have a good track record there.
2) It seems like a lame gimmick, especially put beside the Wii. It only senses rotation, and the person at the press conference couldn't even land the ship using the tilt.
3) Sony says they 'cant' do vibration and motion sensing, while Nintendo does exactly that. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5why dont we all just jump in our time machine and see what happens ^.^
- xcwarrior, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Let's face it. The price of the PS3, the fact it is coming out about a year later than the 360, the fact it cost 3x as much as a Wii, the fact it has like no good launch titles, the fact Blu-Ray is coming out the same time as HD-DVD to divide the sales up.... do I need to go on?
Sorrry Sony, your reign is over. The question is if they can avoid bankruptcy because of this huge blunder. - isthisnametaken, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5As far as this whole console war goes, until all three systems have been on the market for 6 months we wont know anything about the clear "winner" if there will be one.
Here are my reasons why there wont be a clear winner:
PS3 will get bought heavily, dispite what the diggers may say, cause people were shelling out crazy money for a 360 last year, why would it change for the sequel to one of the highest (if not, I dont know the numbers) selling consoles (ps2)? Nintendo will enjoy success with the younger crowd (I know its not as "kiddy" as the gamecube, but Nintendo has a Mom-friendly name to it, admit it). And 360 already seems to be doing fine. None of the consoles will sink, mark my words! - Dingo128, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Actually with the XBOX360 the consumer gets the choice to upgrade or not. If the consumer does not want to spend money on a High Definition video player for the system, they do not have to. If the consumer does not want to have a hard drive, and just use memory cards they get that choice. At least with the xbox360 I can choose how, much or how little I want to invest into it. If I get a core, and later want use accessories to make it a premium I can. You can't do that with the PS3.
- foomojive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Remember, remember the 17th of November.
- slickriven, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7@eltower MiniDisk should NOT be on that list... True it dids not catch on in the States, but in Japan music artists release LPs on MiniDisk. And it you look into MiniDisks, Sony is not the only one making players or disks for them, other companies like Fuji Films, JVC, Phillips, Sanyo and others make MiniDisks and players. So you can't say Sony is a failure in all their formats...
- eltower, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8@ shisan
http://www.digg.com/gaming_news/Sony_finally_is_killing_the_UMD
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/psp/rumor-target-pulling-umds-186720.php
Although classified as rumors, the last time I saw a UMD movie was at launch. Now it's impossible to find them in fnac. - cbiz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Sony could change the name of the console from PS3 to Daikatana. The story reads about the same....It's taking FOREVER to come out, the HYPE is never ending, and everyone knows the company is in trouble. Suck that down!
- brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3over your head pal, the OP meant to say that on a standard definition TV (which most people have), they aren't going to notice a different.
- Kelmon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You make the assumption that everyone with a 360 will be buying the HD-DVD drive and I really don't think that will be the case. HD-DVD/BluRay is pretty pointless at the moment so bundling it with the console only achieves a totally unnecessary premium price. I suspect that Microsoft is only selling an HD-DVD drive as an option in order to keep pace with Sony in the event that anyone does want to buy HD movies to watch on their console. Beyond this, however, I expect most people will be quite happy with "plain old" DVD. I just don't see a big enough HD movie market yet to justify forcing BluRay on people.
- MiDri, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I agree with the ps2 laser problems -- My family used to own a pawnshop that I repaired consoles out of. Those suckers just would not stay working -- and most the time it was just a little gear by the lenses that had to be adjusted. With blu-ray being such a new tech I really am scared how long PS3 consoles will last physically.
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