What is Digg?126 Comments
- moiety, on 10/12/2007, -9/+119Aww, thats cute. Yet another individual who thinks their concept of entertainment is the only one.
- burke, on 10/12/2007, -13/+68Anytime I see "Newsflash: I .......", I immediately stop reading. How is it a newsflash if you're talking about yourself?
Newsflash: I don't care.
EDIT: How ironic his handle is flashman. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+34I look at current MMORPG and even the offline RPG's that are coming out, and I see no resemblance to the RPG's that I used to play. The ones coming out these days are essentially FPS with monologue.
I grew up on the early Ultima's, I graduated to the Diablos etc. - lame_duck, on 10/12/2007, -5/+32I agree. We had Secret of Mana, Teraenigma, FF1-6, and other great titles. Now, RPGs suck. FF has took a nose dive, they try to make every RPG play like a online one, and they all HAVE to be 3D. Do you people not understand the beauty that can come from a 2D game?! I would love to have a great looking 2D game with a story than FF12.
- coyforce, on 10/12/2007, -6/+32"RPG" stands for role playing game. As long as you are controlling a character and playing his role, then what's the problem? Some people get a lot of enjoyment just seeing their stats and levels go up. Why does an RPG need a story anyway? If you get to role-play that character and there is some sort of game afoot then it seems that it could be appropriatley called a RPG.
- forumreader, on 10/12/2007, -7/+24Rap is music?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16no, the article would have been better had the author actually played progress quest!
http://www.progressquest.com/
it's pretty much standlone IRPG - millixaw, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19While we're at it, where's the RPG in console RPGs?
Games like Final Fantasy, Romancing SaGa, Kingdom Hearts, etc are miles beyond the original RPG. The first RPGs (Dungeons and Dragons, etc) were all multiplayer games with no "final boss" and went on forever, with campaign expansions.
If gamers knew the actual definition to RPG, they'd see that MMO RPGs are more accurately role-playing games than single-player "RPGs" such as Final Fantasy. (Ironically, the only Final Fantasy which is actually a role-playing game is FFXI).
When it comes to offline/console RPGs, games like the Elder Scrolls series and Bard's Tale are closer to the original Dungeons and Dragons concept. Games like Final Fantasy are just action-adventure games with a menu-based battle system. They just use the term RPG as a catchy buzzword, not unlike "Web 2.0" - pozzoe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15This has been said ten thousand times before. The article doesn't say anything new, the truth is that, even if I don't like it, this "glorified chat rooms" are somehow popular. If you start forcing people to speak "in character" and do this and that you get something like those Ultima Online shards with 10 to 20 people, and then you loose the M in MMORPG.
Of course, I hate MMORPGs because of those problems, so I wouldn't care if they became just a small elite of old-school D&D players, but there are the people who actually LIKE those modern Diablo and also, of course, there are the companies that like the money involved.
Maybe there could be a new genre of games, a NSMMORPG (not so massive multiplayer online rpg) where all the criteria of the article where matched. Maybe in a smaller world (so people actually run into each other) or populated with many NPC if you wanted to simulate a big scale society.
Now that I think about it, imagine a game with a plot similar to Lost, some people lost in a misterious island. Or the crew of a space ship discovering new planets.
Whatever, I'm just thinking... - devindotcom, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16I wholeheartedly agree. Playing a role does not require an overarching story. RPGs have long required a story to provide an incentive for getting stronger (get bigger... beat the boss... repeat), but now that story has been replaced by numerous other things.
Personally, I bought and played Guild Wars because it provided an enormous, beautiful world for me to explore, while providing fun, challenging gameplay. It took up a full 100 hours of my life - not a lot for WoW veterans I'm sure but for me that's a grip. The story was there but I didn't care because I got a quality experience without one. - Lumiras, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10The biggest problem I have with MMORPGs is the fact that characters seem to have no effect on the game world at all. I mean, if you kill that gigantic dragon that people have been fearing for thousands of years, it's just going to come back in an hour so that the next group waiting in line can kill the thing.
And, even though you can make a unique character, you're always going on the same quests as everyone else.
Quite simply, in MMORPGs, you are just a face in the crowd
Something refreshing needs to happen in MMORPGs, or the genre really could be in trouble. Perhaps they don't just need to be about killing so many goblins or collecting so many vials of sacred water. Maybe there could be greater goals, like fighting an enemy that really has the potential to either wipe the players out of the game or the other way around. Then, when things get too one-sided, a little reset is done and everyone goes back to level 1, waiting to fight the enemy again - dude3609, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Well, in WoW there is alot of grinding.. But some of the quests have a nice story line to them, and the lots of the quests are actually either fun or get you a good reward.. Or some times both. And the pvp part also plays out as part of 'rpg' because of the honor/horde&alliance-hatred. And grinding isnt always boring because theres a ton of places to grind.. Plus there is instances. But without the ability to grind, it 'may' be a little more of an 'RPG' game as opposed to not being one, but it would make the game so horrible without the ability to grind.
But i really see what they mean about no RPG being in MMORPG. There is 'runescape'(runescape.com, which sucks, but think what you want about it), but theres not much storyline behind it and its 10 hours a day for a few months for mid-level.......From there on out its a rediculous ammount of repetitive boring almost useless grinding. The ammount of xp from lvl 79-80 for example is rediculous - MatttK, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11There is A LOT of story and backstory in WoW. There are so many little details. But 95% of the players skip over it all so they can grind their way to level 60 and complain that the game has no depth. To them I say, "bahaha. I'm enjoying the game." ;)
- TA_Superman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8What makes these griding MMO's so appealing is the basic human desire for progress and wealth. People like collecting and accumulating things. We like big numbers. These MMOs start you off as a weakling and slowly give your character bigger numbers and better possessios. As far as strict role playing online, few people have the time or desire to actually role play their character 100% of the time. This includes traveling for hours and long drawn out dialogues that lead nowhere.
- ShrimpCrackers, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7How about something with huge gameplay like Neverwinter Nights or Baldurs Gate 2 with characters you actually cared about? Actually for those that love Space Sims; Eve Online is very good, you alone can have very adverse effects on the universe. Even single traders who find a hit can really affect the price of items and even hurt certain markets.
Heres a fantastic story about Eve Online, which was featured in a mag and DUGG!
http://digg.com/gaming/Amazing_MMORPG_tale._ - BurninatorX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I agree with this article. I play(ed) WoW and when I first started I read through all the quests, made sure I didn't miss a word. Then after I played for a bit, the quests were all the same "blahblahblah kill some of these" "Deliver these to him yadayadayada" It all just becomes boring and tedious after awhile and I just drift away from the game. With regular RPGs I often find myself glued to the seat for hours, just to see what was going to happen next in the story.
- smartpatrol, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"Now that I think about it, imagine a game with a plot similar to Lost, some people lost in a misterious island. Or the crew of a space ship discovering new planets."
For a while I've had ideas along the same lines. There are so many exiting ideas for multiplayer online games besides "generic fantasy RPG #5479". Unfortunately, game developers almost always take the less-risky path. Pretty much any game where you can play as an elf, saving up virtual money to buy some bejewled gauntlets, is guaranteed to sell. Why? People are ***** idiots. - MatttK, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Many MMOs use a colour-coded system to show you the difficulty level of a monster. In WoW, grey means so easy that you won't get any xp, green means easy so little xp, yellow means fair fight so good xp, orange means tough so great xp, and red means YOU ARE GOING TO DIE.
The earliest I remember such a system is EQ (MUDs have been deleted from my memory). I believe they used blue to signify a fair fight for good xp. So if you want to maximize your XP gain, you`re going to want to get in not too hard but not too easy fights where you get good xp. - smartpatrol, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I'm assuming the author did play Progress Quest. He capitalized the title in that quote. Anyway, anybody here who hasn't played Progress Quest needs to! (actually there's very little playing involved)
- MatttK, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11I know what you mean. I`ve been replaying FFIV via GBA cartridge on DS and.. wow.. yeah.. I mean, Square put together far better stories back in the SNES days than they do now.
When FFX launched into a cutscene, I sighed. But when FFIV goes into a story scene, I love it!
Btw, Heatman > Flashman. - jguy584, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6An mmo that you level in by soley completing quests, quests all tied to one main story, and that stroy can change depending on how you go about doing those quests.
I would say that if well made it would be fun as hell - defectDS, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11"It took up a full 100 hours of my life."
Thats... nothing to be proud of. :P - omnithought, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6There's a lot of talk about story.
Great backstory does not equal current roleplay. That doesn't mean it's not fun, but backstory is just backstory, and it isn't a substitute for the actual immersion of playing one's part in a world where most of the dialogue is "WTS [Gerbil Hammer of Doom] pst!"
A game can have the most intricate backstory in the world, but how many people are honestly immersed in their character and actually play a role "in character" in WoW, EQ or whatever? Again, that doesn't mean it's not fun, but I don't think the fun was in question anyway, just whether or not there was actual role playing happening. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Deus Ex, now that was an RPG with a great character involving story.
- chozsun, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Wow, someone wrote an article on something that I have been bitching about since the release of Everquest. That's a shocker!
MMOGs are it's own genre and need to drop the Roleplaying moniker if they are going to continue in the direction that EQ, WoW and others have laid out. I don't care if you have fantasy with stats and cool weapons: if you have Multi Massive, you can never truly have Roleplaying in terms of real story and character development.
Instead of try to get closer to Pencil/Paper Roleplaying route, MMOGs are interested in the same grindfest over and over again. Killing x number of creeps is not Roleplaying. Changing the landscape of your world (via war or diplomacy) is Roleplaying. Seeing your character change due to something that has happened to him is Roleplaying. Seeing your character be utterly destroyed in her quest to be the Chosen of a diety is Roleplaying. Seeing people pull together make their world a better place is Roleplaying. Suffering the same instances over and over again and nothing has changed no matter how many times we conquered the area is not Roleplaying.
At least WoW has made the grind process a lot easier to deal with but it is like anything else in the end. What is really scary is that Vanguard considers themselves the next gen of MMOGs and yet, all they want to bring back the grind in grinding.
My definition of next gen MMOGs: when a player makes two characters on two servers within the same MMOGs and in time, those two servers have become two completely different environments. For example, one realm where peace has conquered all the lands whereas inanother realm, the mortal races fall because they didn't defend their lands against an invading army because they refused to work together, - CognitiveRes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5The other players ruined WOW for me, of course I started out bugged, because the whole concept of general chat is bad
- CornStarch, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10what are you talking about flash man was the *****: http://www.thejadedgamer.net/images/articles/megaman2/flashman.gif
he was kind of a push over though. - Pizpump, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The MMORPG genre has been going downhill ever since Verant sold out to Sony...
- BasouKazuma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Nice article. I too have quickly gotten bored with every "MMORPG" I've played.
I've been hoping a truly unique MMORPG comes along that has much more depth than what is currently present. - BasouKazuma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Agret: So basically 90% of video games are role playing games, according to your definition.
Mario, Doom, Devil May Cry, etc ... in these games you play the role of the main character.
The RPG genre's most defining attribute is the story telling. Without a good story it would just be a video game with a simplistic battle system. - Willow01, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Give me a pen and paper D&D game anyday, I've been playing them since I was 11 (I'm now 27) Call me a geek if you want, ....MMORPG's I don't consider and RPG its a video game. A glorified FPS. Sure I enjoy WoW and enjoyed Diablo....but never considered them RPG's
- Dissipate, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4They don't have time to become immersed in a story but they do have time to kill 500,000 MOBs to make it to the grandmaster level? I don't get it.
- radu79, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Well, duh.
Would you like some guy to build/buy/loot a nuke and destroy the whole world?
As an indie MMO developer (we have over 500 players online concurently), I can tell you that letting the players shape the world is a generally bad idea. They would cut down all the trees and sell them, strip mine the planet, and then, when everything is gone, move to the next MMO and complain how much the MMORRPG they just destroyed sucks. - Cyborg771, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I wish that there where more ORPG's. Who needs the MM?
- cripster, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7The author thinks that everyone who plays games like wow has to be playing it for the rpg aspect since it's called an mmorpg. If that was the case there would be a lot more people playing dnd and the stereotype of of the "actual" dnd player wouldn't be what it is, lol.
A lot of people, me included, play games for entertainment and competition. There are very few who play mmorpgs for the rpg aspect (people playing monopoly vs dnd for example).
I guess games like wow shouldn't be called rpgs if you use the defenition "created" by dnd players and cosplayers, haha... - lame_duck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I link them for the story and it's a chance to explore a place that I'll never see in real life. >.>
- picaro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4With WoW, your actions have no impact on the world. Enemy invaders are ignored by people who keep grinding. At least with Dark Ages of Camelot, the results of PvP battles were felt realm-wide.
- Riluske, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5You know, I hate to bring up Guild Wars here, but I think that it is the closest thing to what is described in this article. In the game, there is a main set of quests that propel the story forward. When you play through it, you actually do feel like your character is making a difference in the game world.
- 13tongimp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4All MMO's are pretty much munchkin games....
To see what I mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_%28role-playing_games%29 - millixaw, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5In a ROLE-PLAYING game, you take on a role (such as the tank, the healer, etc) that contributes to a party. You get better at it as you keep doing it.
In console RPGs, taking the role of Cloud or the role of Link is no different than taking the role of Mario or the role of Megaman. You're not playing a character you've created or a role you've defined.
This is why Morrowind, Oblivion, and similar games as well as MMORPGs in which you create your own character and define its class (role), is close to being an actual "role-playing" game. - shinynew, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Is it wrong that i am enjoying "playing" progressquest?
- GeneralChang, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4It really depends on the gamer. If you play to complete the quest/mission and dont read anything then it plays out as a grind. World of warcraft and city of heroes both have alot of story, city of villains is rich in story from the start!
The RPG in MMO depends on your ability to read... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3FFXI uses interactive cut scenes, you are often given a chance to respond in different ways.
I also find it amusing that you use a term such as storyline while complaining about restricting your characters. You cannot have a non-linear story when NPCs drive the story. - Agret, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"and if someone made it opensource you would get loads of help"
You'd think so but no, there are quite a few MMORPGs that are opensourec and they don't really get much help outside of their development team. OSS is a great idea in theory but you need people that would contribute and people just don't do it if there is no incentive. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Hello, let me introduce you to my friend shut the ***** up. Some people have different tastes in story immersion technique.
Final Fantasy XI uses cut scenes that do not detract from role playing, if you actually played the game you would know this. - bloodwings, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5RPG means different things to different people. This guy seems to think RPG means storyline, but that's not always the case. Some people think RPG means you play a role in the party, and your role must perform certain tasks, like healing or taking damage. Some people think the RPG comes from the storyline that the characters create themselves, when they 'role play' as their actual avatar in the game world, and speak like the character would speak, and create their own history/story of their own character.
Obviously this guy hasn't played EQ2, that game is pure lore, so much of it, the quests are full of storyline, and it has the voice overs that he was looking for. FFXI has the cutscenes that bring the story to life, as well as Guild Wars with cutscenes and voices. WoW is the exception, it lacks in game story (like 10 bosses in MC and only 1 with lore behind it).
It seems like this article guy doesn't know what he's talking about and has little experience in MMOs. Sounds like he's only played WoW and CoH, which do lack storyline, but there are other great MMOs out there. - Agret, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"Something refreshing needs to happen in MMORPGs, or the genre really could be in trouble"
Yep because nobody seems to like WoW - rockintom99, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Technically, arent 99% of videogames rpgs? Like, in a mario game, you play the role of Mario. There would only be a few games you arent playing a role in, like maybe tetris or sim city (though, you ARE playing the role of a mayor. just a nameless one).
- evirus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3the most glorified one of all is phantasy star online, after playing the beta i realised that it was only MMOCR, the actual game is like 8 players at most from what i remember
- Massif, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I totally agree with what the author of the article is saying. However, I think the reality is that most people want the "level up" kind of gameplay. Therefore, developers will develop for what the masses want. It makes me sad that I'll probably never get to play the kind of game that give players more role playing and less grinding. However, I still love dreaming about how awesome such a game would be. Here's a few half-baked ideas for features that I think would encourage a more "role playing" oriented game:
1. When your character dies, they really die. Magical revival is a possibility if done very soon after dying, but otherwise you have to start over. This would teach players to value the character that they have created and not go on suicide missions.
2. Pay per life rather than per month. You buy the game and maybe get 5 free lives. After that you pay maybe $5 to start a new character.
3. No stats. This will probably scare away most "level up" style MMO players. However, without statistics to get in the way, there's really no reason to play other than to have a great role playing experience. Rather than boasting about how you got 5 levels by constantly killing the same creature, you would boast about the actual adventure that you went on.
These are just dreams, but I wish they were real. -
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