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Valve adds Multi-core to the Source Engine
bit-tech.net — Valve is adding multi-core processor support to Half-Life 2's Source engine in time for the release of Kentsfield. We travelled to Seattle to talk to Gabe Newell and his team about what this will mean for gamers and hardware geeks, as well as examining a new benchmark tool created to show off what can be done.
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- hadiz, on 10/12/2007, -17/+10maybe this will fix the stutter bug.
- kcpwnsgman, on 10/12/2007, -21/+2That was a LONG time ago, before the XBox release of it, after tons of optimizations, then they added what they learned from it, to the current engine, the Source engine has so many new features thrown together in it, much like a modified computer with 5 120mm fans, thousands of fans etc.
- Phyltre, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8One can only hope. Stuttering on my machine is one of the few reasons I don't have Episode One yet.
- billyboobs34, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5I had stuttering issues as well. The game was practically unplayable.
- kcpwnsgman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Then try turning down your textures and HDR off, those are the biggest factors in graphical stuttering, also, having the recommended amount of ram will help with it.
- kcpwnsgman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Try throwing a stick of some generic 256mb stick in, I had an Athlon XP 2000+, 768mb of ram, (after upgrading from 512) and my 9800 pro, now, I don't know about you guys, but I sold that computer for $100 used, you can get some of those kind of parts for much cheaper even
- fgsfds, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12There are two major causes of stuttering and poor performance, from what I've seen:
1: Low memory. While the game will run with less, it really *needs* at least 1gb of memory. On systems with 512mb or less, spending $50 to upgrade to 1gb is the wisest choice for improved game performance. It's cheap, it's effective, and it WILL make your system faster.
2: Background processes. Software firewalls (Get a hardware one), virus scanners (Pause the active detection), malware (Get Spybot and get rid of that junk), viruses (Avast!, F-Protect, AVG, etc... Free and effective), or other crap. Game companies can't control what's running on your machine, and it would be a horrible mistake if they tried to. Valve is not responsible for poor performance resulting from your inability to keep your system clean.
Of course, then you move on to causes like crappy graphics cards and low CPU speeds, but since every system sold in the past 3 or so years has been capable of running HL2 fairly smoothly those are uncommon causes. (I've played HL2 on an Athlon 1.2ghz/TNT2/512mb. The game ran choppy until we stuck in another 512 stick.) - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Valve made many optimizations to the Source engine in Episode One. One of the most useful tweaks is the automatic defragmenting of data files during installation. This makes new areas load faster and greatly reduces (but does not eliminate) audio stuttering when you whip the camera around to view new assets.
- Mejogid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9To solve the Dual Core stutter problem:
1. Alt Tab out of the source game.
2. Open the task manager (ctrl + alt + del)
3. Right click the game.
4. Chose go to press.
5. Right click the process.
6. Chose affinity.
7. Un-tick all but one processor. - mancat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Mejogid,
Setting the process affinity does nothing if the application isn't properly threaded to utilize multiple processors/cores, and currently, the HL engine isn't. - Mejogid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Actually, setting the affinity makes sure the program can only use one core and solves problems in many game engines that aren't properly threaded. This solves stutter issues for me on an AMD 4800+ and a core duo.
- VipeNess, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4to fix shutter problem, you could go to amd's website, and download the dual core patch. after i applied it, it fixed it perfectly. the shutter problem, is because both processors don't know which one will take what task, and they start to juggle it back and forth, kinda like a speedy gameplay, glitching horribly bad. most game companies only know how to code single core, and dual processor coding it way harder to program, plus the % of users out there only have single core, so video game companies develop for single only. based off surveys valve does once in a while, the dual core processor margin has increased dramatically and they finally included it in the source engine. happy gaming.
- geneseepc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Listen to vipeness... I ran the hl2 server on win2k3 with an athlon chip (3800x2), it ran like absolute poo. 300 ping all around with 2 people on the box.. installed the amd patch.. BAM 50 ping, and 500 or so serverside fps...
Learn your system, and your games will love you for it. :), funny that Microsoft doesnt release the patch, but apparently they dont want to admit its their fault. - Schrade, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The stutter bug is not a dual CPU/core issue. It affects single core/CPU machines too.
- linkinpark342, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Disclaimer: might not be the best source of information as i have not sources. the following is from personal experience.
I think this is two different types of stuttering we are talking about. kcpwnsgman and Shrade i think are talking about FPS lag - when the settings are too high for your w34k computer.
Dual core boxes can suffer from that too but the major one that the others are talking about is when we know for a fact the current settings run fine (i.e. i can get 90-100 fps normally) but some issue in the driver/lack there of causes there to be _massive_ spikes where you would run for maybe 2 seconds before it froze, then run for another two, then freeze.
- billyboobs34, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19This is about MF'ing TIME!
- matthewhemby, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Many people's stutter problem (including my own) is due to Steam purchases that weren't fully pre-loaded before you started playing the game.
Dark Messiah was *completely* unplayable due to stuttering when I started playing it at 47% downloaded. I finally gave up and let it download fully, after which it ran like a dream.
FYI...
- matthewhemby, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Many people's stutter problem (including my own) is due to Steam purchases that weren't fully pre-loaded before you started playing the game.
- Elfin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21Now maybe I'll get the full value of my 2 processors.
It's amazing how Valve keeps updating the Source engine with cutting edge new features. Here's my vote for a full on DirectX 10 update so I'll actually have a reason to buy Vista.- xenoguy, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1i thought DX10 was coming out for XP too?
- patm1987, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Microsoft has said vista only (like halo2 will be vista only)
the fastest reference to this from Microsoft's website I could find was http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:7ozFER9qmJ0J:download.microsoft.com/download/1/B/2/1B2DA71A-6E70-48EF-8656-2649A1C95E9F/DirectX10FS.doc+site:microsoft.com+direct+x+10+vista+only&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=15&client=firefox-a
apparently they're actually trying to improve their driver model and such, w007. I can now only hope for some form of ogl geometry shaders for my linux box or cedega will no longer be able to help me. - Derrekito, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3YAY I get to wait another 10 years before I get Direct X 10 on Linux.
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3DX10 is NOT coming out for XP. MS asserts that they are implementing some low-level hardware calls to boost performance, and these instructions are not possible with XP.
Note that the next generation of video cards will natively support DX10 instructions, but older cards can still perform most DX10 shaders in an unoptimized fashion. - fgsfds, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@spyrochaete: If DX10 can't run on XP, then why has it's entire development cycle been on XP? If it requires hardware calls, then why can't the drivers - the closest level of software to hardware - be updated to support such calls?
If that's what you believe, you've swallowed the line of ***** they fed you. - Muncher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'm not sure the performance boost that DX10 might bring is worth the overall performance hit that Vista brings.
- Anpheus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The problem on XP, to my knowledge, isn't due to the lack of hardware calls (XP and Vista obviously both run fine on x86 and x86 w/ AMD64 extensions) which really just refers to the instruction set.
But the difference is the driver model. Vista's graphic driver model is designed to have a lot more failsafes, hell, the entire Vista driver model has been revamped. XP cannot use drivers made for Vista, and it would likely take a rewrite of all the interfaces (for DirectX, there are _many_) to put DX10 on XP. That, and as others have mentioned it, if they can use DX10 as a selling point, they will.
It's not like other OSes don't do the same thing. Linux of course has it easiest, with Gentoo users able to simply recompile their kernel and applications, apt works quite well at resolving dependencies, &c. Apple frequently adds features to OS X that _could be_ retroactively applied to earlier versions, but they choose not to (because it gives them no incentive to do so.)
*shrug* If DX10 is one of the features of Vista, I'm not going to complain. It'd be like complaining that my Mac OS X v10.0 (Cheetah) won't automatically have all of the features of Mac OS X v10.5 (Leopard). I'm sure there'd be a hundred people telling me to go cry a river if I complained about it. - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@fgsfds
I don't believe one word of MS's ASSERTION that DX10 won't work on XP. That's why I said that MS ASSERTS this. It is my ASSERTION that you don't know how to read. - icannotfly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@fgsfds: microsoft is in this to make money, and they can't do that if you don't buy a completely new OS. simple as that.
- Klarth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Yow, check out the benchmark videos. I'm very, very impressed.
- merr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I'll digg that!
- vern01, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17THIS is the type of information I come to digg to find out about!
- Derrekito, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2Damn RIGHT! I use Ubuntu and even I'm getting sick of those stories!
- Throlkim, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3The Source engine already ran very smoothly on this iMac, and I can't wait to see how it will run when using both cores properly.
- general13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5With an additional core you don't need gimmicks like the Aegia PhsyX Processor (or whatever it was called), as you can just offload physics, AI, etc... to the second core.
I say a big fat w00t to that. Just when I'd managed to beat the HL addiction...
http://haburgate.blogsome.com/2006/09/14/how-i-overcame-my-addiction/- patm1987, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Not entirely true. Note that no matter how good your processor gets, the graphics card can do graphics better (also that your graphics card will do a poor job at actually running your os). A PhysX card uses (note I'm gonna spit out some technobabble about now that I may not completely understand) what's called an out of order processor. It's the same tech you see in your graphics card that (from what I understand) allows it to perform graphics operations and such more efficiently (and also is really really fast at bit twiddling). (end technobabble) So, your second graphics card is a much better substitute for a physX card than your second cpu core.
That being said, I don't forsee owning a PhysX card or a second Graphics card anytime in my near future, so using my second processor core would be the next best thing.
[and again with all my comments I lack total knowledge about, experts please correct any inaccuracies] - jaredvolkl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I was thinking that the whole time I read the article. Ageia is *****. They had to have looked at Intel and AMD's roadmaps and seen this coming. i don't see how they could be so oblivious.
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1AMD and Nvidia are both working on calculating physics on video cards. I don't know whether they'll do so in the GPU or if they'll attach another chip, but GPUs are very powerful number crunchers.
- patm1987, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Not entirely true. Note that no matter how good your processor gets, the graphics card can do graphics better (also that your graphics card will do a poor job at actually running your os). A PhysX card uses (note I'm gonna spit out some technobabble about now that I may not completely understand) what's called an out of order processor. It's the same tech you see in your graphics card that (from what I understand) allows it to perform graphics operations and such more efficiently (and also is really really fast at bit twiddling). (end technobabble) So, your second graphics card is a much better substitute for a physX card than your second cpu core.
- MillenniumX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Hold on. Does this mean that they're just offloading certain tasks to different cores, or are they actually parallelizing their algorithms?
- general13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@MillenniumX
If you read the article (crazy idea!)...they're trying different ways of splitting the load across multiple cores.
From the article:
"...some systems operate really well just being parked on a core - an example is sound mixing. It doesn't really interact, doesn't really have a frame constraint, it works on its own set of data, and so it's really happy being pushed off."[...]"But most systems aren't like that."
A Master Thread (to coordinate subjugate worker threads on separate cores)
"The system allows the main thread to throw off work to as many cores as there might be available to run on, and it also allows itself to be subjugated to other threads if needs be"
A problem when splitting across cores is the extremely high bandwidth requirement on between the cores, and the latency it introduces. They said in one test they started seeing noticeable lag (like in multiplayer) in a *single* player game.
- general13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@MillenniumX
- titlesaysitall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Hazah!
- neiltc13, on 10/12/2007, -10/+4Does this mean that Half Life 2 will run much better on my iMac Core Duo 1.83GHz?
- marksy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1yeah, or my macbook 2ghz, 1gb ram?
i've installed Bootcamp, and WinXP.. but runs HL2 really slow - TiMMY8765, on 10/12/2007, -8/+12well that's what you get for buying a mac and expecting to play games on it
- Yggdrasil42, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I'm running it on a MacBook 2GHz, 2GB RAM and it runs just fine. Of course, the integrated GPU doesn't display all the funky effects.
A MacBook Pro has a dedicated graphics card, so it should provide all effects. - rtini, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It will run great on an iMac Core Duo, since that uses an ATI x1600. You'll want at least 1GB of RAM though.
It runs great on a MacBook Pro too, having the same x1600 card. The 15.4" MacBook Pros shipped with the x1600 underclocked all the way down to 300/300 (stock is 423/445 core/mem), until the recent Core 2 Duo update, so the 15.4" Core Duo MacBook Pros won't be nearly as good as the Core 2 Duo updated ones.
- marksy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1yeah, or my macbook 2ghz, 1gb ram?
- JorgeGT, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Anyone knows if this apply for hyper-threading enabled processors?
- jer2eydevil88, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6The source engine already takes advantage of hyperthreading on Intel's Pentium 4 processors. This is about actually having multi threaded support by the beginning of next year.
- erichoya, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I'm curious as to how much of this development was also linked to the porting of Source to the Xbox 360, which is presumably a three-core machine. For the more technical, how does hyperthreading work so far in the 360 environment?
- chickenselects, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I just just thinking the same, seems like a different concept though. Iv been waiting for this update.
- mxcl, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1So the Xbox 360 version of the Source engine they just released doesn't yet have multicore either? Yay for using all 3 cores on the 360 guys. Doh.
I'll still buy episode 2 on it though.- Derrekito, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Do we know whether or not for suer?
- MomentDEFINED, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1360 patches ftw!
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Yeah, paying monthly for the privilege of patching unfinished games FTW.
- mxcl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Digg is such a tabloid nowadays, what did I get dugg down for? Did I ridicule some fanboy's penis size or something?
I still read Digg, but some of the other readers are *****.
- drpeppper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Yet we still dont know when Team Fortress 2 will come out.
- Erroneus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Great, but maybe they should start optimizing the dedicated servers for source games, because they have gone from bad to nightmare, specially the CS:S DS.
- macbookpromat, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1YAY BETTER CS:S ON MY MAC W00T!
- noseeme, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I wish they didn't use Youtube for the videos... Too low res.
- Erroneus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Because they cant upload HD vids from the hotel they are at.
They will maybe when they return to HQ, upload some vids in HD qual.
- Erroneus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Because they cant upload HD vids from the hotel they are at.
- Ratteler, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2When Valve supports Multicore on Linux, I'll be interested.
- VeganG, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Don't use an OS that's not gamer-friendly and then bitch about your games that won't work on it.
- icannotfly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@vegan: the only reason it's not gamer friendly is because very few developers make native linux clients of their games. microsoft is trying to maintain their stranglehold on the pc games market, and with DX10 and vista, it looks like they'll be keeping it for a while.
- davymac, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Oh Glorious Day.. I just ordered a Mac Pro 2.66ghz with an ATI X1900XT (should be arriving 11/13) and have an accellero x2 waiting for it to overclock the card.. Sadly.. I CANT WAIT to run windows on my Mac, haha... 4 core glory.. here I come...
- rtini, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This sort of thing is why 4 cores is not going to be too many.
=) - vashavoc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2maybe css will actually run now. wouldnt that be grand.
- krinkle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I really wish they would spend a little more time refining their netcode. I would much rather hit what I'm shooting at than worry about a the game utilizing my dual core processor. The same goes with their new "buy of the week" weapon program. In every other FPS game I play, I hit what I shoot at... I just don't understand why this doesn't happen with CSS :(
- general13, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@krinkle
Netcode can only be cleaned up and optimized so much, because eventually you'll just be stuck with plain old lag. The latency over a WAN (such as the Internet) is *way* higher than data running across the system bus.
I for one think it's great that they're sticking in dual-core support: it's the "Wave of the Future(tm)", methinks.
- general13, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@krinkle
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