What is Digg?71 Comments
- 4NDr01D, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17>you wake up on a digg webpage
go north
>you see a link
ignore link // look around
>you see a comment button
press comment button
> you have completed this quest successfully - HanSolo69, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Just thought I'd put this out there, but RPGs started before there were video game consoles.
- Lixie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15He missed quite a few really good Western RPGs period. I believe the proper name for this article should be "Evolution of JRPGs".
I used to be a JRPG fanboy, but then I played Oblivion...and everything changed. - masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13He missed the fact that since the advent of Final Fantasy VII, "heroes," i.e., the MAIN character, have shifted from being somebody that you like that helps the rest of the party succeed in the adventure to a horribly annoying teen-emo character (Cloud, Tidus) and possibly even a total bastard (Squall was an *****). Moreover, you can no longer count on the hero to lead the party; rather, the party follows the leader and the party has to keep the leader from having a mental breakdown, instead of the other way around.
I like my main characters to be strong and, well, heroic. I don't like them to seem like a high school brat that was thrown into an adventure.
That said, like most Destructoid articles, that was a good read. I dugg it.
and @PueSi: I'm assuming he was referring to "pen 'n' paper," "paper 'n' pencil," or whatever else it's called. - masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10That stems from the fact that a console "RPG" is a misnomer. PC RPGs tend to be Role-Playing Games -- you ARE the character, you choose what you want to do, whatever the heck that may be. Console RPGs, on the other hand, tend to be storybooks-turned-video-game. You are confined by whatever the author intends to happen.
- Kale, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Dugg for mentioning the two greatest games ever made: Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross!
Well, actually, I dugg because it was a good read, but I'm glad to see my two faves pop up in there! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10He seemed to have completely skipped the late80 and early 90's.
What about all the REAL RPGs like the D&D ones?? How about Might & Magic?
Not these 'pretty' rpgs that look great but deliver about as much good value as gaming on the mac! - JavertHolmes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9There's tons of ways to role-play in CRPGs! See below.
The dialogue rule for CRPGs:
For every question where two answers are allowed, a good answer and a bad answer, the bad answer is just the main character's way of saying "Can you ask me the same question again?"
Example:
[Final Boss]: Hahaha, you have entered my lair. Dare you challenge me?
[Main character]: Picks "No."
[Final Boss]: Coward! I will give you one more chance! Do you dare challenge me?
[Main character]: Picks "No."
[Final Boss]: Coward! I will give you one more chance! Do you dare challenge me?
etc.
As you can see, you can role-play and choose to say "No" once, twice, or hundreds of times! The possibilities are endless. - ButterBuddha, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"The Evolution of RPGs" .... sounds like a real nerd magnet
- real2, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8no to chrono cross
- Gundam, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6He skipped over all the PC RPGs (The good ones) most of which had the advancements before the console ones did, the consoles just played catch up. Where are the Ultimas? The Gold Box Games? Meridian 59? Baldur's Gate? Ultima Underworld? Diablo? The PC has traditionally ushered in the next generation of RPGs. Discussing RPGs from a console only point of view is a joke! Anyone who wants to digg me down needs to notice that most people posting are asking WTF happened to the CRPGS.
- JavertHolmes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The current "evolution" of console RPGs is to introduce a bunch of obsessive-compulsive side challenges that don't make the games fun as much as they do more time-consuming. Of course, they're optional, but more enjoyable side challenges/quests would be nice.
Some examples of not-fun side challenges:
Final Fantasy: Dodging 200 lightning bolts in a row.
Catching butterflies.
Walking around a battlefield for X hours fighting every monster in the game X times in order to unlock X monsters in an arena to fight.
Jumping a skiprope X amount of times (I think this was Final Fantasy)
Dragon Quest VIII: Walking around in a circle for 30 hours leveling up defeating slimes in order to experience some of the bonus content.
Console RPGs in general: Immature dialogue, bouncy women, pouty women, brain-dead women, forced romances, the list goes on and on.
The kinds of RPGs I've enjoyed in the past? Morrowind, Ultima VI/VII part 1+2, Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate II.
RPGs aren't the only genre to experience this kind of obsessive-compulsive cashing in though. See: GTA paramedic missions, package finding, oyster finding, horseshoe finding, and the ultimate game for this: Donkey Kong 64. Try to 100% that game and you will never want to find another package/token/doohickey again. - reticulate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Real men play Fallout.
- praisethelard, on 06/06/2008, -1/+6I tried to tell them...but got dugg down :(
- LunarOcean, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"If you can't customize the character"
Most Console RPGs allow this, moreso than you can customize Link. If you want to get technical with words, almost all games are roleplaying games. You take the role of someone and play as them - kinda like how you generally play as the quarterback in a football game.
To complain about FF not being an RPG is to complain about society's terminology and how it's been adapted. Shut up and deal with it. There are hundreds of phrases that don't mean what one might expect literally. When I say FF is an RPG, people know what I mean, and that's all I really care about. - DJCult, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Sarcasm? Or idiot?
- LunarOcean, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"No, it is because the PC RPGS have DEPTH,"
Console RPGs generally have better storylines and better character development than PC ones, precisely because you *don't* roll your own silent-run of the mill-character. I've had people try to tell me that Diablo 2's storyline was the best thing ever - I laughed. It's fine for that type of game, but it's nothing compared to Tales of the Abyss, or something similar. I've also played plenty of console RPGs with more depth combat wise than Oblivion, though I've also played many that were simply derivations of the ATB system.
If you're looking for a game with DEPTH, well, you may want to specify what kind of depth you're looking for. I haven't found many storyline's better than Lunar SSSC, but I doubt you played it since *gasp* it's a turn based combat system. IF you want depth in customization, then the PC market is generally the market to look at. - whiledo, on 03/25/2009, -0/+4Unfortunately, the summary makes the blog post out to be much more than it is. Not the blog author's fault.
But it does make me think of something. If an RPG changed enough, would we still call it an RPG? If you take out random battles, experience grinding, etc., you get something you might not call an RPG. Take for example a person in the comments stating how Zelda is not an RPG. That's fine, but it seems to reinforce the point. To some degrees, RPGs might not be able to evolve much because when they do they are labeled something else. - praisethelard, on 06/06/2008, -3/+7Yeah, he didn't even start with PnP.
- TwoD, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7He missed quite a few console RPG series, he didn't even mention Kingdom Hearts.
I agree that the basic elements haven't changed much but that's true for all genres. - SpockGuy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8PC RPGs > Console RPGs
- ucbmckee, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Console RPGs have, with only a few exceptions, traditionally been a joke. It's probably the Eastern/Western thing, but it's like you're watching a barely interactive movie. That's not playing a role, that's riding a ride at DisneyLand - confined to the tracks and shepherded from start to finish. If only because the keyboard has provided a richer means of interface, the history of real RPGs has always been bound to the PC. During each generation of gaming, the PC RPGs have always been richer, more explorable, more immersive, more interactive, and so forth. When Link was still confined to the A+B buttons, we had the Ultima series and something like 26+ different controls to interact with the world. You could talk to NPCs and ask free form questions. Sure, it might not have had that great of an NLP engine and it was confined to triggers, but you had to interact with the world and pay attention to the game to figure out what to say. Not just select the second option from a talk list (if the game was even that complex). From Ultima, to Might and Magic, to Bards Tale, to the D&D series, up through Oblivion, it hasn't been a contest. Both console and PC RPGs can be fun, but console RPGs just really aren't true 'RPGs'. You have to be able to actually -play- a role for it to be a role -playing- game.
- LunarOcean, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Gundam,
Whether one wishes to admit it or not, console RPGs have followed a slightly different path than PC ones for quite some time. Perhaps not at the beginning, but now there are differences. I suppose what other people have said sums it up relatively well - JRPGs. They are by far the most prominent type of RPG available on consoles. Consoles do not simply play 'catch up' with PCs in the RPG department today. Mention Oblivion, mention Diablo, whatever - I haven't seen a Tales style game on the PC in ages that was done well. Or something like Suikoden. Or Dragon Quest. I see more dungeon and dragon ones for PC like Neverwinter Nights, but that's a different style of gameplay than, say, Star Ocean 3.
If every console RPG is open-ended like Elder Scrollls in the next five years, then I'll believe you. Till then, I see the PC and console market on different tracks that sometimes intersect as far as RPGs are concerned. - kylesiue, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Whatever happened to Super Mario RPG???
They've remade every other mario game... all I want is some kind of recognition from nintendo that it existed.
It was sooooo good.
Could it have something to do with the relationship they had with Square after it came out? - prockcore, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Zelda is every bit a RPG as Final Fantasy (my point being that neither of them are)
If you can't customize the character and if your actions have no effect on the story, then it's not an RPG. I'd say the majority of jRPGs aren't RPGs at all. - RomeReactor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3While CRPG's (computer or console) have changed over time, they are still constrained by the limitations of the media they inhabit. Pretier graphics, surround sounds and new controllers are a nice update, sure; however, a role-playing game ceases to be so when you can't fully translate the role-playing part. Pencil and paper rpg's posses those very dynamics that make up the genre, where developing a character really is about interaction and assuming a created personality. These are the qualties i for one haven't seen on any electronic game; mmorpg's are an approximation, though they fall short.
Anyway, that's my take at the moment. I've only played 3 (count'em, 3) mmorpg's, and am writing this only while waiting for the Regnum server to go back online...
Also: What about MUD's? - EvolvedAnt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Your comparing RPG's to Link? Nearly all of Zelda games are Fantasy Adventure, only Links Adventure (Zelda II) could be considered an RPG and even that was fundementally different than a traditional RPG.
- spvaland, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I must say that when I saw this topic, I was a honestly a little pumped to relive my younger days but was pretty let down. I'm glad he recognized Chrono Trigger as being the wonderful game it is, but anyone who doesn't see the proliferation of five-minute cut scenes as destroying what once was, for me, the only reason to play video games at all cannot be trusted to document the evolution of console RPGs. Perhaps it's just a difference in taste.
- jacobmiller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Since he seems to have used Wikipedia as his source, these articles are probably more worth looking into:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computer_role-playing_games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_role-playing_games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_console_role-playing_games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_differences_in_computer_and_console_role-playing_games - definiteform, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Where's Secret of Mana? Ouch.
- brisance, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What about Wizardry, Wasteland, Bard's Tale?
- TheJuggernaut, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Ah, Treasure of Tarmin. I used to LOVE that game for my Intellivision. There were no saves (of course), no password features; you just had to leave a white-hot Intellivision console on for a few days while it charred your faux-wood entertainment center.
- erichexagon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Interesting Fact: Despite console JRPG's evolving greatly over the years they have always remained irritating.
Fallout 1 & 2 ruled, as did Planetscape Torment.
"The first commercially available role-playing game, Dungeons & Dragons, was published in 1974 - wikipedia.org" - Gundam, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4No, it is because the PC RPGS have DEPTH, you roll your own character, select your own skills, stats, etc. If you want to try to play a halfling barbarian you can, you are not forced to be one character. The gameplay is more complex most of the time too, it goes beyond the "wait for the timer" console style. The modding community is just the icing on the cake.
- Aharoni, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3These aren't "console RPGs" vs "Computer RPGs". Its "Japanese RPGs" (i.e. JRPGs) and "Western RPGs". Most JRPGs are available on console because, well, there weren't many non-Japanese console developers in recent years (except Microsoft).
While running around free in a sandbox world of opportunities (see every TES game, most Ultima games, etc.) the Japanese gamers are much more into being led through a story. Saying "PC RPGs" (i.e. "Western RPGs) are better is simply being ignorant to cultural differences. You may not "dig" (or "digg") these type of games, but the people in the culture these games were created for do (and many people in your culture as well, I might add). - deusx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2From the article: "Before we go any further, do keep in mind that I’m mostly talking about console RPGs here."
If you want an article about computer or even table top RPGs, don't read this one. - randal2k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I slowly put down my pencil, and let the d20 roll from my hand and bounce off the floor, making that clicking noise that is well loved amongst rpg players.... "they call this Role-playing games?".
- bpapa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's supposed to be on it's way to the Wii Virtual Console. I believe it was one of the games recently submitted to the ESRB for rating.
- Wolfr, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4It defies my reason how someone can name Pokémon Crystal an RPG. Technically, it is one, but the backstory and roleplaying elements are so small you it's more of a kids' RPG (which doesn't mean adults can't enjoy it).
These are real RPGs:
Arcanum
Baldurs Gate I, II, expansions
Fallout I, II
Planescape: Torment
Icewind Dale I, II, expansions - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Mainly because of the huge modding community that backs up the PC version. Oblivion, I'm looking at you.
( BTW has anyone seen the dragon mod that's coming out for Oblivion? It's still in early development but damn it looks sweet.
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=554434
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/Denethor1664/Faf_pose_1.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/Denethor1664/Faf_pose_2.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/Denethor1664/Faf_pose_3.jpg
http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/Denethor1664/?action=view¤t=Dragon_Walk_Low.flv ) - DJCult, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Indeed.
- Makiyura, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2man ever two seconds i read about FF and turn based battles, there are other titles other than FF12 that changed the battle style, look at all the others ( especially the "Tales of....." series by Namco, their LMBS (Linear Motion Battle System) has evolved significantly with faster combat that any other JRPGs out there, i don't know about Western RPGs, but from what i could tell they were left out to.
- DJCult, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Plugh. Xyzzy.
- Rxbrent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Am I the only one who thought this article was a history of Rocket Propelled Grenades? Too much CNN.
- NoBullet2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Looks like the weaboos are digging you down. Also add to the list Deus Ex and System Shock 2.
- ooknabah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1No digg- Poorly researched, only adequately written and missing so much essential elements on the topic that it's ridiculous:
Character development has always been a part of Console RPGs? Really? How much character development WAS there in Dragon Quest 1? Or Final Fantasy for that matter?
Chrono Trigger was the first game to deviate and have no random battles?
He doesn't know what the hell he's talking about! - sooperdooper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Gundam
His computer was broke, RTFA
Good point, though :P - zanarkan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2not sure why but of all the games i got recently the game i played the most is final fantasy III DS because of the classic gameplay, don't get me wrong i love innovation but with the limited time that i got in this time of my life its the perfect game, maybe later ill buy and play final fantasy XII which i skipped...
i love the way that if you level up you can beat up the beast in one shot, not like the new system that beast level up as you level up...
anyway maybe I'm getting old for these types of game that you have to put so much time... - NoBullet2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Japan ruined what RPG's were meant to be. And what western games continue to establish as real RPG's. I've played console RPG's since Nintendo Power gave me Dragon Warrior. There are a few that I actually love to play. Like the Lunar games. But when I learned about PC RPG's and how it all started (and how Dragon warrior/quest ripped off Ultima) it made Jrpg's look like the stereotype that it is. Just a long ass story with absolutly no role-playing involved. When the millions of kids play as Cloud. Everyone is Cloud. Cant be said for WRPG's.
Perfect example. When you level up in a JRPG, all you get are automatic skill increases +1 +2 +1 +1 kinda stuff. When you level up in WRPG, you CHOOSE what skill you want to increase. You are the one making the character. It shouldnt be like JRPG's where they force you to be one charcter. Japan totally lost the whole point. And the weaboos just kept following their footsteps. - Dur0c, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The one thing that pisses me off about last gen but hopefully not this gen is this.
You play a game like Dragon Quest VIII, for hours. You get new armor and what not and its not reflected on your character in game.
I dont get it.....Maybe someone can explain this to me.
Thanks -
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