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- merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -4/+50It was a HTTP 500 by the time duggmirror got there..
Google doesn't have it.
Coral appears to be *down*.
Internet archive doesn't have it.
Site is slow.... Copypasta:
I was in the fourth grade when Street Fighter II came out for the Super Nintendo Entertainment System. The one thing that game presented that many gamers take for granted these days were the special moves. It took loads of practice and patience, but within a week I was throwing fireballs and sonic booms like nobodies business. However, if there is one memory I’ll always have from Street Fighter 2, it was learning how to do Ryu and Ken’s Dragon Punch.
For what felt like months, I could never pull off the move for the life of me. I knew learning this move was essential to being a true SF player, and it was that motivation that kept me wanting to learn it. In fact, as sad as it sounds, I remember the first time I pulled off the move. I was Ken fighting against Blanka, things weren’t looking to hot and Blanka jumped in at me. I input the command, and at that moment Ken lifted off the ground and delivered a punch to Blanka that he wouldn’t soon forget. Absolutely astounded that I pulled it off, I actually paused the game and starred at Ken while he was in mid air with Blanka hurled over in pain. I wanted to really cherish the moment, just in case I was never able to pull it off again. Even with it’s steep learning curve, Street Fighter 2 was critically acclaimed and became an absolute gaming classic.
Which finally brings me to my point. For some strange reason, people keep on writing about the Wii title SSX Blur and it’s controversial controls. Eventually, these write ups go into your typical Wii bitch fest about how the motion control is half baked, unintuitive (there’s that word again) and just all together broken. I can’t disagree with those statements more. Yeah, there are plenty of awful Wii games out there with poor motion controls, but you know what? There are plenty of other games out there with traditional controls that play and handle terribly. The fact is that there aren’t many games out there that handle beautifully. The other truth is that for us gamers who have been playing games for what seems like ages, there is also a steep learning curve that accompanies some titles, SSX Blur and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess among them, and maybe some of us aren’t willing to get over that hurdle.
I won’t hang on this point long, but in the case of SSX Blur, the argument is usually the same. The motion controls for “carving” are spot on, but when it comes to those fancy uber moves, the game is considered broken. The first few hours of playing SSX Blur, I couldn’t agree more with those statements. After trying over and over again and failing to do these moves, surely the game was broken. My wife can attest to my absolute frustration, at one point I was yelling at the TV claiming the game to be “broken.” However, performing uber moves is essential to SSX, so I would try and try again. Finally, after much practice I can do uber moves when I want to with confidence. For some reason, when I think about learning these moves, I can’t help but think back to the time when I taught myself how to pull off a Dragon Punch in SF2. Street Fighter is critically acclaimed, steep learning curve at all, but in this day and age? SSX Blur is panned because of the time required to learn how to do the moves. Blur is by no means a perfect game, and it does have its share of problems, but I wouldn’t place the uber moves as the source of the problems. Are gamers simply unwilling to deal with a new type of learning curve?
SF2_SSX
One in the same?
That isn’t to say that Wii controls are perfect. Developers aren’t thinking about games in new ways. Instead, most Wii developers are too busy trying to spend time figuring out how to shoe horn traditional controls to work with the motion controller. Instead of coming up with new ways to play, they simply replace button commands with a motion command. A game like Marvel Ultimate Alliance is a tough play through because players are literally swinging the remote around like a madman. The game is basically a button masher without the buttons being mashed. Another trend that I’ve been seeing lately is the “swing-both-controllers-like-an-idiot-to-get-your-player-off-the-gro und” move. Recently, SSX Blur is guilty of this one in that when your boarder falls it requires you to swing both controllers to get back on your feet. The other day I was watching a demonstration of the upcoming WWE title for Wii. When the wrestler hit the mat, the guy playing starting swinging both controllers around like an idiot to get the wrestler off the ground. Last time I checked, when I fall on the floor I don’t swing my arms around like an idiot and magically get up. This soon to be Wii control staple needs to go away now before it worms its way into countless titles.
Wii controls seem to work best when they feel as if they’ve become an extension of your hand. For example, there is a stage in Trauma Center: Second Opinion that is absolutely ridiculous, but at the same time it shows off one of the most clever ways of using the remote thus far. In an asinine set up, the stage opens with the player, a doctor, tasked with disarming a bomb. You are first tasked to open up the case of the bomb by unscrewing a handful of screws, using a scalpel of all things. To unscrew them, you simply turn the remote like you’re using a screwdriver and it works. It feels great, and for that moment the remote doesn’t feel like a controller, it feels like an actual tool. The next step, which doesn’t make any sense at all, has the player removing pegs from a meter. The idea is stupid, but removing the pegs was awesome, you just pinch them with A and B, and then pull back on the remote to remove it, and push forward to place it elsewhere. The idea of being a doctor disabling a bomb along was an awful idea, but the execution of how you perform the tasks is key, making it the most memorable stage in the game for me. In this case, the controller worked wonders in what is other wise a ridiculous scenario. Another example, fishing in Zelda was way more fun than I expected. For the duration of the game I ignored the fishing pond thinking it wasn’t worth my time. One night I decided to at least give fishing a shot, and before I knew it an hour and a half had gone by. As the player, all you’re doing is acting out the motions of what it’s like to fish, from throwing the line to reeling it in, but the thanks to really tight and clever controls things felt fantastic. I’m not recommending developers make a bunch of fishing and construction worker games, but I am recommending that they look at why these ideas succeed as opposed to waving your arms around like an ape to get a fallen game character off the ground.
Zelda Fishing
Probably why you bought a Wii
Another issue that needs to be remedied is just how touchy the remote can be sometimes. I’m no coder or genius, but I’ll throw my thoughts out there regardless. Maybe there is a time where the player will go to itch their nose, and because they weren’t really paying attention, they lifted the remote and the character on screen does an action by mistake causing them to fail or mess up. Is there a way to make it so that the remote doesn’t know you’re doing an action? Maybe with some games, the developers can have the motion controls turned off unless a button is pressed that tells the game the motion controls are ”on.” Say there is a Castlevania game for Wii and the whip is controlled solely with the remote in a one to one fashion (we can dream, can’t we?), meaning where ever your hand goes, the whip follows. It probably wouldn’t be a good idea to have the whip “on” at all times. Perhaps when pressing the B trigger, the game would then know that the motion sensing is “on” and the player would be free to perform whatever action they choose with the whip. When they aren’t using the whip, just assign a simple attack action to the A button and down play the use of motion controls in the game aside from the whip. Make that one element really work well and stand out, and I believe there can be a rather captivating experience. It kind of goes back to the whole “less is more” way of thinking. Just because motion controls are at our disposal doesn’t mean we need to use them all the time. An idea like this would help remedy the over compensation of the remote in some games, eliminate mindless “waggling,” (who coined that term anyway? Yikes) and at the same time it explores the “extension of your hand” philosophy.
Grey plays Castlevania Wii
Grey demonstrates a fake Castlevania Wii title
We still need to wait and see if game developers are up to the task of making compelling software for the console. It’s to early yet to pass any real long-term judgment on the Wii and the controller. If people are still arguing about how accurate Wii controls are in a year from now, then I would say Nintendo has a problem on their hands. There is potential in the device, lots of potential, it’s just up to some genius to figure out what to do with it. - Icenode, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31Couldn't agree with this more. I hated the controls in Farcry, but they are so perfectly implemented in Excite Truck. Developers need to start thinking about the controls, and not just make a random motion control for everything in the game because the ability to do so is there.
- amonthei, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Normally I wouldn't comment just to express my opinion of a game, but these two titles have such terrible responsiveness I feel I must warn others from wasting their money.
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07
Rapala Tournament Fishing - venir, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I have to agree with the author too. I have been playing SSX Blur for a couple weeks now and at first I was so mad that the uber tricks never seemed to work when I did them. Now, after having time to get used to the motions, I can pull them off most of the time.
Just like the DS, the implementation of alternative controls can really add a lot the the game, but only if done well. The big problem is when developers add in moves just to utilize the controls which causes the game to feel gimicky rather than intuitive - inio, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13Good article, the author would probably love Elebits.
- Antialias, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9yeah, I've really enjoyed playing with items in 3d with elebits, I've even spent time "juggling" a few items, tossing one up, tossing another, catching the first, etc. Great fun and a good example of Wii controls done right.
- rritterson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9You seem to be falling victim to the disagreement dig down. I thought your comment was well thought out.
I agree that shaking your hand in zelda to swing a sword is somewhat odd. If I were to swing a real sword, I would tighten my grip before swinging. In zelda, that has me hitting the A button as I tighten my thumb, so I'm always jump swinging.
It's not a total loss though. You have to give credit to Nintendo for forcing a technology out into the open for others to improve on. You can think of it on the Wii in two ways-- either we have a whole new control dimension and not try to attempt to force hand movement to mimic on screen movements, or you can imagine the technology in it's infancy and imagine how it will improve.
The NES controls were far from great. The placement of the analog stick on the N64 was garbage too. But it's gotten better, and the games are fun in new ways, in my opinion, because the technology was implemented. - echonull, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7The main problem I see is that the "gesture" aspect of the Wiimote seems to be easy use (basically as button replacements), while proper 1-to-1 actions require much more thought to include properly. The majority of the Wii's titles are likely going to include more of the former than the latter, but the best of the 1-to-1-action-games will be truly spectacular.
Here's to hoping Metroid Prime acquits itself well in this respect.... - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"What if instead of implementing an API that relies on pre-recorded movements, they turned to a mocap-esque API that would allow realtime motion capture and animation?"
The Wiimote's accelerometer is no where near precise (or for that matter, accurate) enough for that. It's +/-3.6g, and has a relatively low bandwidth for sampling (1.6kHz). You can super-sample the sensor to get a bit more out of it, but I still wouldn't expect miracles. - troysteinbauer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8@stucktildekey: "In a snowboarding title, you could have one Wiimote strapped to the leg opposite the one you hold the controller in. When you jump to perform a move, the distances between the Wiimote in your hand, nunchuck, and the Wiimote on your leg could be interpolated to create various grabs, spins, etc."
The Wii cannot calculate the distance between the remotes and nunchucks, and the Wiimote straped to your leg would have to like point at the screen to get accurate positioning. Good idea though! - iammustangman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6This author makes a good point, and I haven't thought about it like that for a long time.
Similar to the authors SF2 experience, I remember the first two 3D console games I ever played- super mario 64 and LoZ:OoT. the first hour, minimum, was getting used to the controls. and it was fun, it was new. it was a whole new dimension!!! (for me at least). also, the first time in mario 64 when i did the "run one direction, double back and jump" jump, was so surprising and awe inspiring, i just had to perfect it so i could taunt the heck out of the chain chomp.
today, if the controls aren't down in 5-10minutes, the learning curve is too steep, and it people automatically write it off. with this in mind, i can't wait to pick up in Okami where I left off :) - echonull, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5While I agree the swordswing gesture of Twilight Princess felt tacked on, and would have rather had a buttonpress to strike for the more intense battles... I dearly miss the ability to make a subtler motion to just unsheath the sword without striking, now that I'm going through Ocarina of Time.
One interesting point, Call of Duty 3 makes an excellent show of combining the one-to-one aspect of aiming and driving with the gesture aspects of switching weapons and grappling over a rifle with an enemy soldier. Those contests of strength were actually rather intense, adn the better for having a high-exertion flailing gesture for them.
Then there's Elebits. The whole game is nothing but one-to-one mappings, and of all the console FPSes I've played it has the single best interface and responsiveness. Please, name one other game where you can notice a target in the corner of your field of vision, and pop it without even interrupting your movement.
As to your point regarding the Wii making sacrifices to focus entirely on motion control, I don't believe I've heard about this. I was under the impression they sacrificed HD graphics so as not to go overboard on hardware costs, and (I assume) to keep software development costs lower... but that's entirely unrelated to the motion sensing itself. I believe the PS3 was the one that had to forego the rumble-&-motion-sensing combination, and that was due to legal rather than hardware issues. Though you're right, the Wiimote design does drop the buttoncount significantly compared to the PS3/PS2/360/Xbox controllers, though it compensates through the use of gestues or direct motion sensing for what would be buttons on a regular controller.
PS: good point, rritterson; OP dug up despite disagreement. - shinynew, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3When the ***** does everyone feel the need to comment on how a site is or isnt working, and quote the number of diggs at the time. No one cares. They can figure it out them selves. And almost every time i see anyone doing that the site is already back up.
Just stop it. - navitatl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I hated that level. I've been stuck on it since the day the wii came out.
- chicbicyclist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Everyone should buy, or at the very least, rent Godfather Wii. Then, with a straight face, tell me that motion controls doesnt work.
In case you need more motivation to do so, here's two: You can strangle a bitch and choke a cop. - har0ld, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Developers need TIME. But publishers want profits NOW.
- Splendor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I agree that developers need to stop using 'waggle the wii remote' as a control. For the boxing/wrestling games why not make the knocked down player use each hand to focus his eyes on the referee who is counting him out. That's what really happens in boxing and Warioware has a mini-game where you focus a magnifying glass by moving the remote closer or further from the screen. It's certainly possible and would be much better suited than waving your arms like an idiot.
- Juntistik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1To answer your question so you wouldn't ask it again, not everyone who reads the article diggs it.
- sexycommando, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Golf is one of those sports that is just so much more fun playing in real life, and almost always sucks in video games.
- africansk8er, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3That level is also in the DS version of Trauma Center, and is just as challenging. What a great game...
- MWeather, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2They should include traditional non-motion controls for those who dislike the motion control. That's one thing I really like about the PS3. If I don't want to use the motion controls, I can turn them off. Some games even let you turn off certain motion controls, like grinding/balancing in Project 8, while keeping others.
Sometimes the traditional controls are just plain better. You shouldn't use motion controls just because you can, they should be superior or they shouldn't be used. - SushiK, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1That Bomb level in the Wii version is ludicrously hard. It took three hours to do, and even then only by a collaborative effort of me and my sister.
Then I remembered the healing touch for that last stage of it... Still I beat it without using the touch.
Any game that can make you sweat that hard trying to get the precise timing and motions must be a good sign. - TheTjalian, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I just pray that the Graphics are from the Gamecube version... at least. I also pray they up the polygon count a little (maybe even the textures?). Either way, awesome stuff :)
- eTron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Anyone get used to Dragon Ball Z Bud... 2 for Wii? I am having a bitch of a time on that one. Do the controls really suck that bad? This is by far better than any past DBZ games I will say.
- dylanwalker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@geminitojanus:
I'm not really clear on why 1.6 kHz is too low a sampling rate. As an estimate, if I take the baseball a pitcher throws at 100mph (160 km/3600 s). The angular velocity is this divided by the typical arm length (~ 1 meter): 44 rad/s. The angular resolution should be this divided by the sampling rate or .0275 rads. And of course there are pi rads in a circle, so we're talking less than 1% of a circle. That seems sufficient to me to capture human gestures; especially those not attempting to wing wiimotes at 100mph towards tv screens.
Maybe, I'm overlooking something? - Triene, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I really enjoyed reading this article.
It made a lot of good points/arguments/observations about the Wiimote and used good examples.
I like when he made parallels to traditional controls.
Just had to say what a great read this was. - grumbel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The main issue is simply that the Wiimote gives you acceleration, not position. So you can never tell where the Wiimote is. Thats still good enough for some motion detection, but you can't do motion capture and real 1:1 mapping with it.
- wideawakewesley, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Henry, you really don't get it do you. In order to innovate you have to take risks. Placing motion controlling as a secondary feature is not taking risks and it would have killed Nintendo. It would have been akin to how every other consoles lightgun controllers were adopted. You get less than 1% of the consoles game's making use of it even though people think they're cool. If Nintendo had attempted to go head to head with Sony and Microsoft based on graphical prowess and some optional motion sensing controller they'd be dying on their feet right now. As it is, they've shifted more consoles in the first four months than either Sony or Microsoft and it's now down to them and their third party developers to start creating innovative software to make use of the innovative hardware.
p.s. Wii Sports Baseball still has me coming back day after day in an attempt to get Platinum medals and I purchased on launch day. - Blythe703, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I want to see some more RTS on consoles, because up until now a lot of time had to be spent on the controls or RTS's just would not work. but now with the wiimote that acts like a mouse and controller i think that it would work as well if not better than a PC if done right. that way some people other than PC gamers could have stuff like, Starcraft, age of empires, Command and Conquer, and any others that they could port or make.
- jsully, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2The author said it took him *two weeks* to learn to throw a hadoken - I don't think he's even remotely qualified to critique gaming controllers.
- xxeyes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1amonthei,
I was really excited for Tiger Woods 07 after loving Wii Sports Golf. When I first played it, I absolutely hated it. However, I gave it a second chance and have since grown quite fond of the game. It is a strange case of being completely unintuitive, but still somehow successful. The game could have tried to replicate the real physical possibilities of playing a game of golf, but instead it recognizes that it is a videogame and plays as such, allowing the player to master the game to a degree that would be impossible for such amateurs as myself in real golf. For instance, at first I hated the fact that putting power is not consistent, but relative to your distance from the hole, but I soon learned to enjoy the system because it allowed me to sink puts that I couldn't come close to tackling in real life. It is not a simulation, but a fantasy game where you learn to play on the level of the pros... It's hard to describe, but the game works and it works well [once you get used to it], just not as you would expect.
I wrote this to make up for the initial, unjustified bashing I gave the game on gamefaqs the day after I got it. Bury this long winded post if you like, but I feel better now. - fankle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Tiger Woods on the wii needs "in the bag", and one-to-one mapping for the golf swing like wii sports golf. Aside from that, I'm quite liking it. I hope EA (never a good way to begin a sentence) make a proper wii version, graphics et al tailored to the wii, soon, rather than just a rushed ps2 port. And give us online play with it please!
whilst on the subject of golf: c'mon Richie Ramsey!! - DollaDollaBill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1too late.
Zelda was OK. dungeons great, otherwise uninsipired.
Wii Sports is fun, gets more action than anything.
Currently own and disappointed by:
Red Steel, Rapala Fishing, Excite Truck Super Swing Golf, Tiger woods 07 and smooth moves. - henrythehorse, on 10/12/2007, -15/+15I can't stand the use of motion in Zelda. Shaking your controller inches back and forth like a paddle-ball in order to swing your sword is innovative? I don't think so. Wii has done a good job simulating the games in Wii Sports but did any one really buy a spanking new console in order to mock the most basic physical actions among all of sports? Of course not. And after one round of swinging a bat in Wii Sports' baseball it feels like you have a real sports injury in your rotator cuff. The pain fun ration in that baseball game isn't worth it. And what is there to look forward to? Shuffleboard in Wii Sports 2? Hmmm...
The thing that seems unfortunate about the Wii is that the feature the entire console is based around and that Nintendo has made sacrifices to the rest of the Wii in order for it to be based around is the motion and the motion technology it uses seems like it is still in its infancy. It isn't even about games finding a way to be innovative with it, the hardware simply isn't that great. Developers are failing to become innovative with the PS3's SixAxis motion too. But fortunately for the PS3 motion isn't center stage, it is only a secondary feature next to standard button pressing on an award winning controller design without motion in mind. So if motion isn't taken advantage of on Sony's machine there's no loss since it isn't supposed to be there for primary game controls any away but instead used to complete minor objectives, minor controls etc; the feature is really designed with being optional in mind. While on the other hand Wii mote is a less than stellar controller when motion isn't taken full advantage of. - sent1nal, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3mirror?
- IdelosIX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@echonull
Glad I'm not the only person who saw CoD as a good game for Wii. Yes, the controls (aiming and not spinning and staring at the sky) took some time, but I thought that most of the motions were actually well thought out. Could have been longer though... - catdog, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6Well written article, makes some good points :)
- drpcken, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1TW PGA Tour 07 on 360 is much better in my opinion (which I know means sh*t around here :D )
- nickerbocker, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3@stupidbrowner
Why don't you check yourself? http://duggmirror.com/gaming_news/The_Wiimoten_What_works_what_doesn_t_and_what_can_be_done/
Looks like it didn't catch it to me. - dlroo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0@ merreborn
Thanks. - shinynew, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Ok so when people figure out how to make controls for the wiimote the wii will be amazing.
When people figure how to code well for the PS3 the games will be amazing. - TheSiege, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Me using the Wiimote is like trying to kill a squirrel with Legos.
- stucktildekey, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Don't worry, those games won't be touched with a ten foot pole... there are a million reasons before poor responsiveness that make these titles suck.
- Feign, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1Oh Forbidden would we.
- stucktildekey, on 10/12/2007, -17/+11Here's a thought:
What if instead of implementing an API that relies on pre-recorded movements, they turned to a mocap-esque API that would allow realtime motion capture and animation?
For example, in a fighting game, the player would be allowed to create their own moves. A physics engine would then determine the amount of force to apply to ellicit a certain amount of damage(ie: weak, medium, and hard punches).
In a snowboarding title, you could have one Wiimote strapped to the leg opposite the one you hold the controller in. When you jump to perform a move, the distances between the Wiimote in your hand, nunchuck, and the Wiimote on your leg could be interpolated to create various grabs, spins, etc. - pogfreak, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1time to throw out da Wii and go with da TRIPPLE PS
- elnerdo, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1Gar, I can't get on the site, and duggmirror, google cache, both coral caches and archive.org don't have it.
- PureGamer, on 10/12/2007, -14/+1Is there a reason this site is messed up after only 45 diggs?
Lame.
Edit: Correction, it DOES work. - stucktildekey, on 10/12/2007, -17/+3If you're going to digg down a comment, at least take the time to reply to it...
- stupidbrowner, on 10/12/2007, -25/+1none of the mirrors have it
EDIT: merreborn, please check first next time (change the address from http://digg.com/* to http://duggmirror.com/*)
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