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70 Comments
- stinkybrinker, on 11/21/2008, -1/+11I take exception to the notion that video games have not yet reached the pinnacle of being considered as "art". I like the concept Rohrer is pushing, most games could be better, but games that allow " pixels and code and computers will make you cry and feel and love" exist already. Rohrer, by all means, help to push the envelope, but please consider.... There are quite a lot of crappy movies, paintings, and literature that don't qualify as (good) art in my opinion either. Baulders Gate, Planescape, Masquerade, and quite a few other games "pulled at my heartstrings" or "made me think".
- Gizza, on 11/21/2008, -1/+8A lot of adventure games like The Longest Journey and Beyond Good and Evil are pretty good at that too. Probably the game that has me caring most about the story and characters is the Half Life series, specifically Half Life 2 and the expansions.
- tbredofsin, on 11/21/2008, -1/+7As an indie developer myself, it's nice to see indies getting more recognition. But I think the problem with a lot of these really artistic guys is that they don't match their high concept and emotional core with complexity and depth of gameplay; this article makes it sound like some of this guy's games were programmed in a matter of hours. I believe it.
- stevenunya, on 11/21/2008, -1/+6Dugg for "Headiest"
- HackerJacks, on 11/21/2008, -4/+9You're going to die.
- errornix, on 11/21/2008, -1/+6Here are the games he's created:
http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/jason-rohrer/ - ck314, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5"I don't know if you can smell me yet, but by the end of the day, you will probably be able to."
- blakeroberts, on 11/21/2008, -1/+5I've always wanted more substance out of video games. Although, I think Ocarina of Time is as close to art as any game has ever gotten.
- thebrokenlight, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4If you need more proof that video games can be art, play Braid.
- megaton, on 11/21/2008, -0/+4I agree. The quality of you has definitely gone down over the last few years.
- RealmDown, on 11/21/2008, -2/+6Dugg for "Great Gonzo"
- violentvinyl, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3I think part of the problem is the stigma that video games have. It's still very much a boy's world and hasn't reached the saturation level that other forms of art have. Your girlfriend will think it's cute if you shed a tear at the end of a movie, but if you start bawling when you play Halo? Not so much.
There is most definitely an art to creating good, engaging video games, but I imagine most "gamers" can count the games that have made them really feel something on one hand.
Of course, for every gamer that wants a more artistic experience with their games, there is going to be one that skips the cut scenes and just wants to play. You make different movies for different types of people, video games are the same process (creatively), just a different medium. - Nirgaul, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3This game is worth taking a look at. There are some very interesting things about it not mentioned in the article.
As your characters progress through the "passage", their movement from left to right becomes accelerated. It does seem like our perception of time is that the years go by more quickly as we get older. Also, the future is most "blurry" in the game in the early ages, but less so at the planned out phase of midlife, where game objects evoke notions of furniture and interior spaces - the Nest.
At the end, the beginning of the passage is more obscure, as recollections become less distinct. The light-blue surfaces remind me a lot of the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey.
Its a depressing game, but sobering, and very novel.
Emo as hell, though. - InsaneOni, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3Honestly, this is why I've pretty much stopped playing videogames. I grew up on Counter Strike and Half Life and Fallout (which I would argue crosses some of those boundaries into the artistic range of games), but there doesn't seem to be anything new in the gaming world. I'm a very artistically inclined individual, I know that my preferences in games don't really apply to most gamers, but I think if the industry moved in a more profound direction, they payoff would be great for everyone. Too often it seems that when producing something people think of awesome graphics, "immersion", or gameplay before thinking about the story behind the game. We have what has the potential to be the most powerful medium of expression we've yet discovered and we're wasting it.
- Wilarseny, on 11/21/2008, -0/+3Who are you to say that? What authority do you have to tell us what we should want in games?
Before video games, people said this about movies. Before movies, photography. Something in the nature of reproducible media makes people seek in it whatever they are missing, and that seems to translate into relief of some sort--from the economy, from their family situation, from whatever else--most often taking the form of entertainment. But some respond differently to their world, and instead of being relieved from it seek to understand it--these are the people that, when truly motivated by the desire to understand, make and enjoy art.
Maybe what you want in a game is to be entertained, to be relieved--that's fine. No one's trying to take that from you; you don't have to play these types of games, just as you don't have to read serious literature or go to a contemporary art gallery. But recognize different people want different things. Entertaining gameplay isn't enough for a lot of people, myself included. We need emotional attachment, or philosophical depth, or something else to enable the game to enrich our lives in a meaningful way.
The point is, we all desire something different out of video games, at least those of us that play them. There are a lot of us out there that would like to see more meaningful games created; that's a fact. For you to come out and declare what "the point of a game" is, that's completely ridiculous. - inactive, on 11/20/2008, -3/+6Esquire's features are always great, but I feel like the quality of the magazine as a whole has gone down over the last few years. Maybe it's just me.
What do you think? - Wilarseny, on 11/22/2008, -0/+2That's definitely fair. And thinking about it, normally if gameplay is that terrible one doesn't get far enough to judge how good/bad the story is...
- lokee73, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2Stevie Case was cooler...or maybe it just seems that way because she got naked...
- Wilarseny, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2The thing is, you can't ruin his games. I knew what happened in passage before I played it, and it was still amazing. I didn't quite know what happened in between, but there's something about the process that makes you think about what you're doing--in my opinion, this is where the real value of each game is to be found. It seems to me there are two approaches to the two games of his I've played: either you can dismiss them as not entertaining, or you can engage with them and if you choose this latter path you're going to do some thinking. If you let the game enter your head, it's not a choice whether or not you'll think about what it is exactly that you're doing, and why, and this is something I can't say I've ever experienced in a game before.
- Wilarseny, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2Because he's not making a general statement about how games "should" be across the entire spectrum, whereas you were. If that wasn't your intention, it came off that way. Here is his conceit--"I know that my preferences in games don't really apply to most gamers"--compared to your broad statements: "it's the whole point of video games... The point of a game is to be fun and story should be secondary, but still important." It's a totally different thing to say, as Oni did, that you'd really enjoy it if games were x other state, as compared to saying, this is how games should be.
I very much understand your point, and I would tend to agree. There's a reason you're playing a game rather than watching a film. But I think the point to be taken from Oni's post is that often gameplay is focused on *too* much, to the detriment of story, intellectual depth, emotional involvement, etc. It's like saying a novel or poem shouldn't just be filled with really clever turns of phrase (though there are many writers who do just that), but should have some meaning outside of the medium, a statement with which I think a lot of people would agee. - FandomeDude, on 12/20/2008, -0/+2i kind of want to visit this guy
- Gloogle, on 11/24/2008, -0/+2I cried. I ain't gay.
- anderzole, on 11/21/2008, -0/+2its easier!
- Elranzer, on 11/21/2008, -1/+3Ocarina of Time was great, but theo ne Zelda game that was literally a piece of interactive art was The Wind Waker.
Its art style is amazing, despite the insecure haters, and has never been matched, except almost by that MMORPG, Project Wiki. - ngmcs8203, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Is that regional slang? Or are we really calling this guy intoxicating?
- knutslie, on 11/21/2008, -2/+3look it's Halle Berry...
- Elranzer, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Japanese RPGs are good at it, but don't exceed where western adventure games can go with emotion. Try Broken Sword, Dreamfall, or even Day of the Tentacle.
- Eleven34, on 11/22/2008, -0/+1Thank you. I was hoping someone would call Esquire out on this *****. Looking at pop games like Madden and Halo, or even Peggle, and generlizing that "games aren't art" because of them is equally as retarded as pointing to High School Musical, Transformers, and Armageddon and saying that, because of those, no film is art.
***** these guys and the programmer. Passage was lame. I haven't felt emotionally connected to something so pixelated since I was six and Passage sure as ***** didn't help.
If you want arty videogames check the jayisgames.com blog archives. ***** people need to get their head out of their asses - mmhnef, on 11/21/2008, -7/+8What a stupid article. And a bunch of pretentious game designers. I'd like to tell ebert to define art, then we can talk about whether games are "art".
If, as the article seems to suggest, art is something that evokes emotion, then we've had our "model" for years. FF6 was more epic and evoked more emtion that over 70% of the films i've seen.
The medium isn't art, it never was, not in films or plays. It's the story. And there are games w/ great stories out there.
And wtf dosn't eat meat because he dosn't want to take the chance that it will spoil if he looses power, yet has an internet connection and a laptop?
Incredibly lame article. - Gloogle, on 11/25/2008, -0/+1Yeah, video games should stop making my penis water, instead make my eyes water.
- Jabrams2, on 11/21/2008, -1/+2nice to see some indie developers getting the credit they deserve in the mainstream media. cool game, too!
- fredrockbluff, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1i'm torn between feeling like the guy's work is deep, or reallllly emo. maybe somewhere in between.
- violentvinyl, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1.
- bagboyrebel, on 11/22/2008, -0/+1Ok, I can admit that maybe I shouldn't have made a blanket statement about why people play games, although I can't say I understand why someone would think gameplay should take a back seat to story in a medium designed around the purpose of player interaction. From my point of view, using you story/poem analogy, it's like saying that authors waste too much time making the story legible or easy to understand.
Personally I don't think either should be sacrificed, but from experience a game that has good story but bad gameplay isn't as enjoyable as a game with good gameplay but bad story. - Akira71, on 11/21/2008, -2/+3I am for anyone trying to make gaming more and more of an art. Hey I like indie music.. this is just a natural fit.
- OasisR123, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1..and weird
- Wilarseny, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Done: http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=betweenco ...
- bheilig, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1You sir get a digg!
- _HAM_, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Played his games.
Passage is not a game. Its interactive media without any gaming. And in that light it is pretty interesting to go through.
Between seems pretty crappy. I couldn't get into it. - Wilarseny, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Just finished between. Nothing happens, which I kind of enjoy.
http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=betweenco ... - fleksor, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1how do you get the yellow shade block?
- flintmecha, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1What the ***** was with the story about a naked boy and tall grass and a cop?
- bagboyrebel, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1@Wilarseny
The point was that InsaneOni was already complaining that companies worry more about gameplay than about story, I was just responding. Why aren't you asking him why he gets to decide that?
I also never said that developers shouldn't also work on the other aspects, but if the game isn't even fun to play can it really be considered a good game? A great game, in my opinion, is one that can incorporate everything you said, but if it has everything except good gameplay then I probably wouldn't want to play it. Part of the reason I say that is that if the gameplay is bad then it hurts all of the other parts. It becomes distracting and it becomes apparent that it might have been better as a movie or a book. - bheilig, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Thanks for completely ruining that game for me without mentioning there were any spoilers.
- fleksor, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1how does one get the yellow block in between?
- violentvinyl, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1@ emilychap
I think its pretty relevant that you're female. I think American males (stereotypically) are conditioned from a very young age not to cry.
I think you back up the point I'm trying to make. Video games are already at a point where they're emotional enough to make people cry. I just think your average male gamer is conditioned against the emotional response that Jason want's his games to illicit.
I do agree that Square makes some pretty involving games, but with the titles you mentioned, I feel like for them it might be more of a "formula" than an "art". I haven't played a FF game since 7 though. - championchap, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1As in smelliest.
- PaulMyo, on 11/22/2008, -0/+1One of the 3 levels (states?) is shared between you and your partner. If they put down a block then leave the shared level, when you come in to the same level you will get the changes they made appear on your screen but they will be reversed (level and colour). This will get you the purple, yellow and cyan blocks.
You need to find out quickly which level is shared then put down 4 block of each colour and leave. If you partner does the same you will both have all the blocks you need to finish the game.
Be careful what you do on the shared level. Their tower will also be in your level (but reversed) so you can stuff it up by moving blocks around and leaving the level. They can do the same to you. I also found that you shouldn't fill up the screen to much on the shared level because it can cause the game to lock up when moving between levels. - mrbrianxyz, on 11/22/2008, -0/+1Cool lifestyle, I can digit
- Elranzer, on 11/21/2008, -0/+1Dugg for Dreamfall: The Longest Journey and Beyond Good and Evil (both available for Xbox and PC).
I'd love to add to that Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon (also for Xbox). Hell, the entire Broken Sword series is art. -
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