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43 Comments
- aahpandasrun, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2430 years ago, kids roasted ants with magnifying glasses.
Today, kids play games like Civilization 4 building human civilization, dealing with economic, military, scientific, and cultural issues. - chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Why can't people just play games for fun? why do people always look for a deeper meaning (good and bad)?
- Murphious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11But ours isn't "Clean, wholesome fun" like their entertainment was....
Right? - w0mbat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11"It's worth noting that the emergence of video games as a major youth enthusiasm has occurred at the same time as a striking drop in juvenile violence."
In what city/country? Over what time period? That statement is vague and could be coincidental, there are many factors involved in juvenile violence. That said, when your kids (or partner) are playing computer games, you know where they are and what they're doing.
I agree there are plenty of intellectual benefits from playing computer games of all types. Most games improve your observation and multitasking skills, possibly at the expense of your attention span. Learning to read books in noisy environments (in my opinion) can help your attention and focus. That's just my theory, though.
I love games, but you can overdo anything. However intellectually stimulating a game is, I don't think it's healthy to have that as your one, sole passtime. People (especially kids) should be encouraged to get out in the sunshine, get some exercise and meet people socially IRL from time to time. Games are great when it's raining.
I do think kids should be protected from violent/disturbing games, but we don't have to demonise the games to do that. - yaosio, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I played Civ 2 when I was a kid.
- Jowitz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6w0mbat, and everyone, check out the statistics at the Bureau of Justice ( http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance.htm ) and check out the huge decline. Sure, it probably has to do with many other factors, but politicians and anti-videogame enthusiasts cannot state that there has been a rise due to video games, as well, there obviously has not been. There are also some other interesting statistics on that page, and you don't even have to have taken statistics to recognize the obvious trends.
- electromagnetic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@ zamagag
Yeah I've been playing Civ games since the first one and I'm 18 this year, so you're idea is flawed to *****. Everyone I knew used to be playing Civ games or Simcity, with the occasional Duke 3D and C&C, but just about everyone I know my age has a copy of Civ2 somewhere even if they just stole it off their dad. - drakonite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"In what city/country? Over what time period?"
In the US for one place. According to the FBI's 2004 crime report (which was released some time last year btw, and AFAIK is still the most recent report by either the FBI or DoJ on the matter):
"As for trends in arrests of juveniles for violent crime, a comparison of 2004 data with those of 2003 indicated that the number of juveniles arrested for violent crimes declined 0.8 percent, 5.5 percent compared with 2000 data, and 30.9 percent compared with 1995 figures."
Do you remember the number one game in 2004? GTA:San Andreas. According to the FBI's reports, juvenile violent crime was at the lowest point in 40 years in 2004.
"That statement is vague and could be coincidental, there are many factors involved in juvenile violence."
Maybe, but how is the media any better? Their claims of video games causing violence are based upon a theoretical epidemic of youth violence which be coincidental evidence at best... however the real problem with their claims is that no only is there NOT an epidemic of youth violence, there is actually a steep decrease!
So while a skeptic such as you may say the comments about the rise in video games corresponding to steep declines in youth violence could be just coincidental, they are in fact very direct responses to the anti-video game comments being made by the media and others who claim video games are responsible for a rise in youth violence ( a rise which doesn't exist! ) - rtfx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think there are a lot of untapped possibilities for applying games to academic subjects that are traditionally associated with "book learning."
The trick is to not structure the programs as drill exercises with gameplay tacked on - a fallacy that occurs over and over, but has been overcome in commercial educational software many times even back in the 80s. The power of the computer specifically as a learning tool is to enhance the *rate* and *pacing* of information presentation. (Wikipedia is the ultimate example of this....trivia and hard facts at your fingertips, in excellent detail, all linked together)
So learning software should, at its core, function like a better textbook - a smarter one. There are a lot of stupid things about textbooks:
-The information you want gets scattered amongst different pages and has to be compiled yourself with notetaking or an excellent short-term memory
-The examples and problem sets are limited, and the solutions are often made brief or left to odd answers only for space reasons.
-Relationships between facts are kept to the bare essentials unless they can fit into a margin. This is very bad - discovering the relationship yourself is much more time-consuming and hurts total comprehension. In a video game, you can easily observe relationships because they are carefully engineered to be observable - tutorial levels and "here is a new weapon/enemy/switch" sequences make the comprehension curve as dead simple as possible so that the player can move on to skill perfection. The "why does/how does" questions are answered very quickly. In a textbook, the answers are usually implicit.
-Computers can follow strict rulesets without error; therefore, a "sandbox" for problems in math, science, and (to some extent) language should be obvious. I know I would be more inclined to ask the "what if I do x" question if "x" didn't take five minutes of writing and calculation. It's that kind of question that leads to advancement of knowledge.
This may not sound like typical game design, but the difference is in fact primarily aesthetic; the physics engine of today's first-person shooter could be applicable to a physics learning tool, where the goal is not to collide objects with foes, but to test hypotheses given in homework exercises. Instead of the explicit advancement of an avatar through a virtual world, the player undertakes something like a "mental hike" - she should get the richest possible learning experience - and ideally have a huge number of things to try in relation to a single subject. The progression is primarily internal and skill-oriented, as happens in most hardcore action or strategy titles.
No edutainment company, in some 20 years of that industry segment's existence, has put out this kind of product and *made it a big success*. They can be found if you look, but they don't get market attention above and beyond the drill-and-kill clones. There's also software like Mathematica and MATLAB, and programmable graphing calculators, but they come into play at the very end of the learning process, where they're used first by scientists to do things that can't be done in their head or on paper, and then secondarily by students. Their toolset ends up feeling limited and unfriendly to the average disinterested student. Thus I believe that this kind of software will have to be taken up by open-source causes to grow to full potential.
At some point, I'd like to try working on such a project. I've looked for an existing one but haven't seen anything yet. - electromagnetic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4From my experience violent games help channel violent emotions, some people go get out a set with a punchbag or go for a run on a treadmill to get out their pent up stress emotions. I tend to take a swing on Lugaru for about 5 minutes just to beat the crap out of something to get it out of my system and it gets it out of my system, like I've said before and like I'll say again whenever this issue comes up - I'm now a pacifist, I'd only fight when it's absolutely necessary and never before. So much for games making people violent, it's had the complete opposite effect on me.
If people don't want their kids playing violent video games, well here's the solution - be ***** competent parents, get up off your fat ass and take the game off the kid. When it costs £50 they aren't going to be going out and buying it again anytime soon, if they do stop them using the computer, I mean ***** people they're like half your size and 1/4 your age you should be able to out think them... or just pick them up. - blueblood, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7another reason not to vote for Hillary
- daggerhart, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3zagmagag is just upset that he wasn't one of the 'smart-kids'. =) thats cute.
- drakonite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Lesson learned: Cheat and get rewarded - however she does know it is just a game..."
Seems to be the game plan for a large number of people in real life as well... - IAmAI, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I believe there are far more plausible explanations for youth-related violence and anti-social behavior, such poverty, poor education and lack of activity. Bored children with lack of amenities may resort to antisocial behavior to entertain themselves. However, I bet you, they'd rather being playing video games, violent or not, than going out and committing crimes. Rather ironic, perhaps.
- chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5do you even need another?
- NCC1701A, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"I asked my 18 year old son, "What are you playing?".
"Sims 2", he said.
"Whats that about?", I asked.
"Oh, You're born, you grow up, you educate, you make friends, you get a job, you make money, etc...etc...etc...", he explained.
"Hmmm... Hey.. how about you doing that in real life!", I exclaimed!
Some form of incoherent babbling followed....
Oh the irony!
Ya had to be there I guess...
PS: My son can't make his own bed yet! - MatttK, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I played Civ when I was a kid AND roasted ants. Can't it be both?
- drakonite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I know how easily statistics can be bent; however the nice thing about the statistics I'm quoting is that it's not some random study and it's not from a group on either side of the fence who are trying to bend it one way or another. It's just the generic statistics and graphs the DoJ and FBI put out, which along with being the most official numbers (for the US), they include some information on juveniles; and on every graph and every statistic including an age breakdown, there has been a significant drop in youth violence. Over 30% in 10 years... thats huge no matter how you look at it.
I won't get into a discussion about whether video games caused the decrease; but no matter how good of a statistician you are, without falcifying data there isn't a way to distort those figures to show video games increasing youth violence, because youth violence has significantly decreased in every aspect. - comradechimp, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Pretty much an overview of the argument in "Everything Bad is Good For You" but worth reiterating to counter the amount of anti-gaming media hysteria.
- Pushkin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Yeah Right:
"Thanks to The Sims, Mr. Reynolds says, his daughter now knows how to budget and how to read an income statement. In SimWorld, he notes, "narcissism, hedonism and impulsiveness are punished" and "traditional middle-class virtues, like thrift and planning, generally pay off."
---
*MY* daughter quickly looked up the cheats on the net and gave herself fantazillion simoleans to buy whatever she wanted.
Lesson learned: Cheat and get rewarded - however she does know it is just a game... - bennyboy371, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I was actually quite a violent kid until I got my Nintendo 64 and Goldeneye back in the day. I was much more of a violent person when I played Super Mario World than when I started playing the GTA series. Youth crime is at an all time low. Hell, crime in general is. At least reported crimes. If theres a direct correlation ANYWHERE, its that Mario kills and GTA soothes the savage beast. Er, well, at least gives the beast an outlet.
- bennyboy371, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Titus Andronicus.
'Nuff said. - WDot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1VIDEO GAMES are violent and raunchy? Have these "critics" EVER read Shakespeare?
- rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You can't have it both ways.
From the article:
"Thanks to The Sims, Mr. Reynolds says, his daughter now knows how to budget and how to read an income statement. In SimWorld, he notes, "narcissism, hedonism and impulsiveness are punished" and "traditional middle-class virtues, like thrift and planning, generally pay off."
But yet, the common argument (advanced in the very same article) is that "it's just a game" and that playing videogames cannot influence behavior in a negative way.
So, let me get this straight - any time a positive effect is noted, games have great influence - an argument particularly used by game developers when they are selling advergaming or military training; yet, any time a negative effect is noted, it is either "just a game, relax" or "it's art and you are trying to censor it".
Is it any wonder legislators and other critics are less than convinced by these contradictory, disingenious and frankly dishonest arguments? - w0mbat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3You and I know (from common sense and experience) that computer games don't result in an overall increase in juvenile violence.
Statistics however are unreliable and will be bent to whatever angle the presenter requires. By analysing a small time period or age/area subset or taking reported crimes/arrests/convictions you can usually acheive a rise or fall as required. It's great that one set of stats show crime going down at around the same time that people are playing a particular game, but I'm sure that the opponents of videogames and find statistics to "prove" the opposite.
Don't rely on the statistics game too much, they can play it too and you'll waste a lot of time. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1. ._. .
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Children can learn quite a bit about history, politics and geography from games like Civilization and the Total War series. Things that in school they would never voluntarily choose to study at a young age.
And they're not even "educational" games, they're genuinely fun games. - Jowitz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1electromagnetic, you know superheros and villains are not real either, don't you? Also, they originally were a child fantasy in the form of comic books, so perhaps before telling people to grow up, perhaps you should too.
- Daedalus81, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Besides isn't that same point being used on both sides of the fence?
If you ask Thompson maybe he would say any benefits are useless, because it is "just a game", but when a game is associated with a crime it is suddenly evil? - Daedalus81, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Some games do have inherent benefits, but the negatives need to be offset by good parenting.
- zediker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"My son can't make his own bed yet!"
Do you know how hard that is! Those damned sheets wont stay put! You tug one way, and it *&#%s everything up! I say *&$% making the bed, and @#(& those *@&#ing sheets! - Depot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The one piece of research actually cited by this article:
"The most comprehensive study yet on the social effects of such kill-or-be-killed games, conducted by researchers at the University of Illinois and the University of Michigan, found that prolonged playing of Asheron's Call 2--a gory online multiplayer fantasy--didn't make study participants more belligerent."
The citation is:
Williams, D. & Skoric, M. (2005). Internet fantasy violence: A test of aggression in an online game. Communication Monographs, 72(2), 217-233.
This is widely considered to be a poor example of research. It was shopped around to various higher-tier journals, all of which didn't accept it. The games were actually purchased for the researchers by the videogame company, and the participants were all self-selected.
There is actually quite a few good articles on videogame violence at this point - between correlational and experimental studies there are about 50. Meta-analysis (a research technique that combines the findings of various studies to determine an overall effect size) has shown that there is a moderate effect of playing violent videogames on aggressive behavior.
None of the scientific research has claimed that if you play a violent videogame you will kill people. That is media spin. If you read the actual peer-reviewed research it says that playing a violent videogame makes aggressive cognitions, behavior and affect (emotion) more accessible.
Think of it this way - if you practice something over and over again, regardless of the task, it makes that more response more likely and more accessible, regardless of the paradigm. If you practice your multiplication tables, you learn multiplication. If you practice violent behavior, it makes it somewhat more likely (not certain, not probable) that in a given situation you will react more aggressively than someone who has not practiced violent behavior. Not kill someone, not even hit someone just react in a more aggressive way.
The point that most of the research makes is that it is something to think about.
Do I personally think the government should regulate videogames? No. I like my games the way they are. Do I want my kids to play Grand Theft Auto? Not without me being there and explaining exactly what is happening and why it isn't appropriate in real life. - drakonite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Youth crime is at an all time low. Hell, crime in general is. At least reported crimes"
And according to the DoJ the percentage of reported crimes has steadily risen as well... Though how they can figure that out without having all the non-reported crimes reported I dunno ;) - Fitbrains, on 05/11/2009, -0/+0I have been working in the brain fitness space since 2001 and we have come along way. There has been significant scientific studies over the last 5 years that illustrate how we can maintain and develop our cognitive skills through our lifespan. Our company has started to launch pilots that provide more efficacy to our software. I truly believe the next 5 years will see a lot of positive developments in this area.
Michael
www.fitbrains.com - drakonite, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Indeed.
Shakespear was the trashy smut novels of it's day...
No, really.. I even had an english teacher who used those exact words to describe it. - Ryuuzaki, on 10/12/2007, -1/+01. Set stepmania up, set z,x,down,right as controls.
2. Play at maximum difficulty, progressivelly increase general speed multiplier.
3. Human latency goes down ;)
4. Cognitive mind becomes detached, as if it were some sort of medidation method. Deep thoughts come together, while eyes and keyboard seem to be connected by an independent "process" the concious mind does just observe.
For better results, make sure sync-to-vblack is set, vrate is as high as possible, and fps matches it! - darkenin13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I really am hoping that some kid with actually go into a violent rage from playing so many of todays "violent video games" and assassinate miss anti video game herself Hilary Clinton.
- duruq, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Although I agree that video games are not as harmful as some claim they are, saying that video games are entirely innocent does not make sense either. Nothing is binary in life, some video games are harmful and some are beneficial. As a 20 year-old who has been playing video games for as far as I can remember, I can say that the harmful video games are obviously on the rise.
I am not saying that stuff like GTA is harmful, far from it. If one cannot differentiate between fiction and reality then that is their problem.. And if parents are dumb enough to let their small kids play Mature rated games when the kids are unable tell the real from the virtual, then it is the parents' fault. And game industry is trying to not let that kind of stuff happen. I think the real danger comes from MMORPG (which are not really RPGs, btw) and other online games for that matter. They are dangerously addictive.
The article, btw, is full of vague arguments which are not supported enough so no digg. - electromagnetic, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1MMO's have no major appeal to me, I loath having to play them for review. It's like being beaten with a bloody sack, especially the 'RPG' ones where you get ***** ***** pretending to be elf's - I mean grow the hell up and get out of the delusional little world, elf's aren't real! Talk however the hell you want, just don't make me bludgeon you to death for being idiotic.
Games like City of Heroes/Villains have appeal to me, but not enough to get me to pay monthly fee's to play. I might pick up a copy in a few months, but I have the distinct feeling that I'll get bored after an hour or so and just go back to doing something useful with my time. I might just buy WoW to become the pulverisor, a man who wanders the world beating the ***** out of ***** who pretend they're talking like an elf. - Wickerman392, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1"With the next generation of high-powered consoles on the market or soon to appear, gamers will have even richer, more complex virtual environments, many of them nonlinear, to explore."
Yup, with the likes of Metal Gear Solid 4, Gran Turismo 5, Halo 6, Half Life 2(Ok its not console but...), etc. we are only a SINGLE generation away from some games that are more than "find the only way to move forward." Maybe we'll get Toy Story graphics too! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -13/+1i'm PRETTY SURE he wasn't referring to the gamer kids of 1996.
here's a hint: "Today, kids..." - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -14/+0an 8 year old playing duke and C&C, yeah that's the general public right there. rofl, dirl along with your demented parents
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -18/+0kids don't play civilization. rofl
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