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PS3 hard to develop for? No says Sigma dev

computerandvideogames.com — Yosuke Hayashi, director of Ninja Gaiden Sigma which is due out on PS3 later this year, has said that developers claiming that PS3 is hard to develop for is just an

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  • MouseCircus, on 10/12/2007, -68/+31Inaccurate. He doesn't say it's not hard to develop for. If you read the article, he practically admits that it's hard to develop for. He specifically states that they're trying their hardest to get the best out of the PS3, but that they won't use the "it's too hard to develop for" excuse and release a poorly programmed game.
    • asif5th, on 10/12/2007, -44/+14Yeah, as much as I loved Ninja Gaiden...***** I even went out and bought Ninja Gaiden Black, those games were truly worth every penny. But these guys aren't really making this game from the ground up....just porting it with better looking textures, and some new characters.
    • threepio, on 10/12/2007, -7/+72So... essentially you have to make an effort to produce quality. Colour me shocked.

      The PS3 is a complex system - but not so complex that you can't produce spectacular results. Check out the videos of Ninja Gaiden Sigma - there's a comparison on gamevideos. It's remarkable to see the difference.
    • topbravo, on 10/12/2007, -31/+68PS3 is the future... it may not hold the cards now but when the flop comes out it will be holding a royal flush...


      -Back to watching celebrity poker....

    • Thrump, on 10/12/2007, -40/+14I'm not sure why you're being dugg down MouseCircus. I agree with you. People are saying the PS3 is hard to develop for because THE PS3 IS HARD TO DEVELOP FOR. Or at least, 95% of the developers I've talked to and read quotes from say this. If this is the same guy that was in charge of team ninja for the xbox release, he's full of poo. He said similar things back then and when Ninja Gaiden was released. It was good, but not great. Lots of the things he said they were doing better than other teams just didn't turn out the way he said.

      I'm sorry, but to say "the PS3 is hard but suck it up" is missing the point. Developers waste so much time catering to sony's BS, when it could be A LOT easier for them. Microsoft figured this out, and their dev tools are leagues ahead of Sony's.
    • MouseCircus, on 10/12/2007, -30/+8Yes, that's what I meant to say. I had just woken up when I posted the original comment. He's basically saying that it will require more effort for them to develop an awesome PS3 game. He's saying other developers half-ass it by using the "it's too hard to develop for" excuse. He never claims it's not hard. Still inaccurate. Either people misunderstood my first comment, or the fanboys are still on their Digg rampage.

      Oh, and you're all comparing an Xbox game to a PS3 game. Of course there's going to be a huge difference.
    • W00DR0W, on 10/12/2007, -17/+9I'm sure making a game isn't that hard when your boss already made it. Ituragi says he likes to hire people who think like him, which means arrogant and cocky, this is probably just some bravado *****.

      The Mercs 2 developers said it was hard to develop for and they have no hate for the PS3, in fact it's their lead SKU. It's not being fanboyish to admit the PS3 is simply hard to develop for. This just means the PS3 will be a little slower to catch up.
    • Noah0504, on 10/12/2007, -11/+38He said the the PS3 is "different" from the other consoles when it comes to development, not hard. "When we first got our hands on the hardware it took us a while to get back into the flow of working with Sony, because the way they do things is a little different." If you take a Windows user and stick them on a Mac or a Linux box, many of them will say that it is hard to operate. This is not true, it's just different than what they are accustomed to. Hard is a relative term that I don't really think should be used in this case. I'm sure the Altair 8800 was "hard" to develop for...
    • BentSea, on 10/12/2007, -19/+6The screenshots are not that impressive. I wish they were, but they're not. And no matter how you spin it, a REMAKE is not worth buying a system for, not with 3 new levels, a second playable character, and refined combat...

      No matter how you slice it, you're still paying for the privilege of replaying an old game.... only.. paying 60 for it, instead of the 10 or 20 you could get it for now...and... 600 for the system.. or 400 some odd pounds if you're in europe, when the other system you should really already have by now, but even if you don't you could get it for super cheap, less than 100...

      I wonder how big of a fanboy you have to be to say that an old game is a good enough reason to buy an entire system...

      Besides, since John fricken Carmack says its harder to develop for and made poor hardware direction decisions, I believe him, the man has done the most major 3d engine pioneering of all time...

      Or in the case of the gamespy article that said the same thing, how much Sony has to pay you to say that...
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -16/+5I call bollocks on the Linux/Mac/Windows comparison. All three generally use the same processor and where SMP is involved it is homogeneous. To use heterogeneous SMP is extremely difficult. Generally there is no easy way to use many similar cores yet apart from a few embarrassingly parallel problems, to bring differing cores into it is just something else entirely. None of the consoles will ever utilise the multiples cores properly but it will take much longer for the PS3 to get up to speed on this.

      I suspect we will quickly see a standard for AI and physics engines using 2 of the SPEs but it won't go much further than that.
    • goffy59, on 10/12/2007, -13/+2Maybe if a more known game company said it was easy to make games for it, Id actually care. But who the hell is Sigma? I dont think I'm being fair, but then again I grew up playing games starting from Atari, so ive seen good games and bad games. Most the games out today suck ass with just good graphics and no game play. So im guessing this is another one of those type of games. Cant wait for half life - Episode 2 or fallout 3.
    • waffledad, on 10/12/2007, -14/+8If it is so awesome, why don't they have individual strands of hair on his head? Sadly, the PS3 has the power but it isn't being harnessed, must have been too hard to do (the PS3 is quite capable if they program it to do so... so I blame the programers).
    • ScoTTeh, on 10/12/2007, -12/+6@topbravo

      The game gear looked much the same. It had a colour screen, TV addon and much more. Guess what? It failed. Time has shown that not always will the most 'advanced' console come out on top.
    • grumbel, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5### Check out the videos of Ninja Gaiden Sigma - there's a comparison on gamevideos.

      Half the difference is due to ***** capture of the original XBox material and thus washed out colors and contrast and as far as I know an XBox360 could have rendered the game in true 720p, which they didn't use either and instead just manually upscaled the thing. PS3 version of course still looks better then the XBox version (no surprise), but the difference really isn't that large (contrast fixed, resolution however is still just 480p):

      http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/ninjagaiden_xbox_vs_ps3.jpg
    • gxcdesign, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20developing isn't the hard part...playing the game is lol
    • rbanffy, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5@Noah0504

      It is not a Windows to Mac comparison. The Cell processor is very different from just about everything that has been used in consoles to this day. The 9 "über-DSPs" that are glued to the PowerPC cores are the key to high-performance on the platform and, since they can't access main memory directly, they need some kind of baby-sitting on part of the PowerPC cores. This asymetric multi-processor is, perhaps, the hardest super-computer architecture to program. It's as much designed for multi-tasking/stream processing as the x86 is designed for single-user/single-tasking.

      Software houses need "game programmers with Cray experience". That's hard to come by.

      But given them time, the PS3 has the horsepower to produce things that haven't been invented yet. And it will continue to astonish for a couple years while programmers get used to its architecture.

      But, again, gigaflops do not translate necessarily to fun, so, my bet is still on the Wii.
    • jhnewt, on 10/12/2007, -10/+7As a programmer for a game developer, I know that the PS3 development tools are a pile of crap (but getting better) compared to other nextgen consoles. However, this shouldn't be an excuse for crappy games...
    • WhereAmI, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3@jhnewt
      As your father, I say you are not a game developer.


      (my point is you can say whatever you want, it doesn't make it believable or anywhere near the truth)
    • dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4I'm not sure I understand. I'm looking at these screens for sigma ( http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160607 ) , and they don't even come close to the quality we've seen for games like Gears of War, or the upcoming Bioshock and Alan Wake. If the PS3's so easy to develop for, wow me with your products. As it stands, Sigma doesn't look like anything the OG XBox couldn't reproduce.
    • daridave, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9I don't really understand why your comment got dugg down, but again I'll back you up, he did say the developers say it's hard to work with.

      HE personally doesn't develop for the console, so he doesn't even have a f*ing clue. He's just saying he doesn't like to hear his devs bitching about it, and states that's no excuse.

      In other words, YES, it is innacurate -- the article in fact CLAIMS that PS3 IS hard to work with, otherwise he wouldn't mention it.

      I know I will be burried by the moron fanboys, but please just accept it ? The guy is not a developer, he just doesn't know.
    • staticneuron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2daridave, are you serious? As far as being on team ninja goes Yosuke Hayashi worked on the combat system ( enemy AI ) for the original ninja gaiden. He was the project lead on Ninja Gaiden Black and now he is the director of Ninja Gaiden Sigma. I understand you are trying to attack his credibility but most game directors have a good understanding of how their games work and the complexity of the code.

      Typical M>O. of the anti-Sony brigade if what they are saying seems valid attack thier character and knowledge..... maybe people (and I guess a few did) won't believe em if "I" claim they don't know what they are talking about.

      BTW he has only developed for the PS3, he claims to not have worked on the 360 yet.
    • Tahiri, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I don't really understand why your comment got dugg down"

      His history of irrational PS3 bashing for one.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Why is it anti-Sony to say that SMP is a ***** hard problem forget SMP over different core types. Spend just half an hour looking through Wikipedia and you can see that. Geniuses far more intelligent than your average game developer have been trying to make general SMP useful for about 30 years, it's the most difficult task computing has faced in a long time but because your relating it to Sony clearly you are anti-Sony. Yes heterogeneous SMP is more difficult than homogeneous SMP by the very fact you have to target two archs instead of one.

      Look the 360 will never come close to using it's power but the PS3 will do so less again. If you're lucky the 360 will reach about 50% utilisation with the PS3 reaching 30%. Yes it's the truth that the whole thing is a marketing scam. It's like putting a 500BHP engine in a front wheel drive car, it cannot handle the power but will leave all the uneducated drooling over the big number.

      I suspect this will be dugg down to hell though. If I posted it in the programming area I'd get a thousand thumbs up but those people don't know as much as console users when it comes to computers clearly.
    • hockey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The "average game developer" is a pretty smart coder.

      Game programming is one of the most complex disciplines of coding there is. Because of the perceived nature of video "games" it's easy to assume otherwise.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1A games developer is better than your average coder I agree but I'm talking about solving the problem entirely. We've been waiting for a Turing or Von Neumann to solve the parallelism problem and that person has not turned up. I think it was Kernighan who said that 'Just because we need a solution doesn't mean we will find one'.

      Until we get that level of person, an Einstein of CS, we will not be able to properly handle the problem other than fiddling around the edges. The only real use of SMP until then would be for multi programming or for a few embarrassingly parallel problems. There are few applications to gaming which haven't already been done.
  • Felspawn, on 10/12/2007, -24/+11And so it begins, microsofts multi billion dollar viral campaign at work.....
  • Arkanok, on 10/12/2007, -29/+7I don't know if its just me, or if the screens are just poorly captured, but this game doesn't seem to look that much better than the Xbox version of Ninja Gaiden... Sure its HD but there just doesn't seem to be a dramatic jump in visual quality. Regardless, I'd still grab this game if and when I buy a ps3, i love Ninja Gaiden!
    • Felspawn, on 10/12/2007, -6/+37go to http://gamevideos.com/video/id/10182 and check out thier High def comparison. There is a huge difference.
    • zerokill, on 10/12/2007, -10/+28well there is a big difference but it doesn't scream "I'm Next-gen" like Motorstorm or GoW does. But then again it's a remake of an old game.
    • stappawho, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15It was one of the best looking last gen games.
    • grumbel, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Half the difference is due to ***** capture of the original XBox material and thus washed out colors and contrast and as far as I know an XBox360 could have rendered the game in true 720p, which they didn't use either and instead just manually upscaled the thing. PS3 version of course still looks better then the XBox version (no surprise), but the difference really isn't that large (contrast fixed, resolution however is still just 480p):

      http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/ninjagaiden_xbox_vs_ps3.jpg

      The difference is still there, but its really just a nice remake, nothing revolutionary or impressive graphics wise. Its the kind of difference that you might not even notice on a SD-TV. Next-Gen can do much more.
  • xXShadowstormXx, on 10/12/2007, -63/+9To those of you who subscribe to EGM: do you remember in the "PS3: Failure to Launch" issue (December, I think?), the cover story pulled what gamers, the press, developers, marketers, et cetera say and the developers did say in that issue that the PS3 is indeed hard to develop for.

    For the Xbox 360, all Microsoft requires you to do is simply plug in the code for your game in. With the PS3, there is so much more complexity involved.

    I call BS on this.
    • Itazura, on 10/12/2007, -6/+54"For the Xbox 360, all Microsoft requires you to do is simply plug in the code for your game in. With the PS3, there is so much more complexity involved."

      Plugging in codes is called programming. I call BS on you.
    • Sirocco, on 10/12/2007, -5/+34>> For the Xbox 360, all Microsoft requires you to do is simply plug in the code for your game in

      That gave me a good laugh. Thanks :)
    • xXShadowstormXx, on 10/12/2007, -9/+34Wow.
      I can't believe what I just said.

      My turn to fail at the Internet.

      You can bury that now, thanks.
  • TrueArctic, on 10/12/2007, -18/+13360s gonna get played out soon. Halo's pretty much the only worthwhile game. Wii will bore soon, with its lineup of games looking like that. and by then, the PS3 price tag will have dropped, so everyone except the pathetic fanboys will get a PS3. except, of course, if sony ***** up even more and loses final fantasy and the rest of it's exclusives.



    Well, i'm sticking to my PC for now, this is BS i dont really care about
    • Zipp425, on 10/12/2007, -12/+4When does Forza come out? and what about Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey?
  • mobislink, on 10/12/2007, -8/+35I think the PS3 forces developers to put more resources into game development but there is more potential for innovation. This will hopefully lead to better games. The Xbox360 has some great games but after a while they will reuse the same game engines to make new games. I don't think there will be much improvement beyond GOW.

    I think the Wii will loose it's appeal as soon as the hype calms down. The really need some good game to keep people interested.
    • Agret, on 10/12/2007, -20/+6"I think the PS3 forces developers to put more resources into game development but there is more potential for innovation. This will hopefully lead to better games."
      What? How does it give more potentional than innovation, it's more costly to develop for. The X360 is cheaper and produces similar (disputed by fanboys to be better in some cases) results. That means that the 360 actually allow mores room for innovation as you can take a bigger risk than with the PS3, especially with the larger 360 player base.
    • venom8599, on 10/12/2007, -7/+12Personally I'm just sick of hearing innovation thrown around. It's a stupid buzzword. Like "synergy" and "thinking out of the box" and etc...
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Don't you worry about "innovation", let me worry about *blank*.
    • thomasprebble, on 10/12/2007, -10/+6So you'd rather game developers reinvent the wheel for every game? Do that and your company goes bankrupt.
    • popfrogs, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Game engines being recycled != recycled-looking games. I seem to remember the GOW X360 developers saying they'd like someone to license their engine and make an RPG or a racing game. A game engine just provides the framework, it's up to the development teams to decide the rules and content for that framework.

      Take a look at Quake III for example. Sure, you had a lot of great, independent shooters like Action Quake and Urban Terror, but you also had things like Quake III Rally. I'm sure games like Half Life 2 also have some very different mods.

      When development costs get as high as they are now for next-gen platforms, studios get really reluctant to re-invent the wheel. Even middleware companies are getting some love now because they supply network code or other bits that work well and snap-in to games and it's one less thing for Insomniac or whomever to worry about.
    • Izacus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Even better example.
      Unreal Engine 2.0 (GoW uses Unreal Engine 3) was used for Unreal Tournament 2004, SWAT 4, Lineage 2 and countless other games.
      It's not about the engine, it's about what you do with it.
    • dime, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3"Take a look at Quake III for example. Sure, you had a lot of great, independent shooters like Action Quake and Urban Terror, but you also had things like Quake III Rally."

      Call of Duty, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Enemy Territory, MOHAA... all use the Q3 engine, and all are very, very different games.
    • teetow, on 10/12/2007, -11/+3Oh, *****.

      The PS3 isn't "hard" to develop for, no-one's ever said that who has any real experience. What they're saying is that the PS3 is complex - at points unnecessarily so - and that Sony writes crappy dev tools. By them sticking to their "we'll make ours so different you'll have to choose" design philosophy and then seemingly going out of their way to make people NOT want a PS3, you can see how being a multiplatform developer becomes an unnecessarily costly adventure. You won't get better games out of it, that's for damn sure.

      Sony can learn a LOT from Microsoft on how you support your developers. Of course, their "Codex of False Immortality and Perpetual Arrogance" forbids them from doing so.
    • ChildeRoland420, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8"Call of Duty, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Enemy Territory, MOHAA... all use the Q3 engine, and all are very, very different games."

      WHAT? They are all shooters, how is that 'very, very different'?
    • DarkJC, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1The problem I have with Unreal engines is that you always know when a game is using an Unreal engine. I'd like to see a game based on UE3 that avoids this. Gears looks great, yes, but it also just screams "I'm using Unreal". That it should, considering it's an Epic game, but when all games based on the same engine have the same kind of styling to them it starts to get old.

      Just like the Source engine, you play a game built on the engine and it just feels like Source. It tends to take away from the uniqueness of a new game from a new company.
    • staticneuron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"What they're saying is that the PS3 is complex - at points unnecessarily so - and that Sony writes crappy dev tools. By them sticking to their "we'll make ours so different you'll have to choose" design philosophy and then seemingly going out of their way to make people NOT want a PS3, you can see how being a multiplatform developer becomes an unnecessarily costly adventure. You won't get better games out of it, that's for damn sure."

      The PS3 is supposedly similar to programming on the PS2.... except easier. List the devs who complain about deving on the PS3.... did they dev on the PS2? have a good selling game on the PS2?

      The PS3 was made to use a wide variety of open Api's middleware and engines. Not only sony but several other companies are helping to make dev tools for the PS3. First party Sony devs also went out and shared their tools ( I know, your gonna say that sony game devs suck right?). I am gonna call BS on your idiotic rant....... I apologize for the disrespect though because it seems as if you are implying that you know more than many industry devs out there.
  • DeskFlyer, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Is just an......?????

    The suspense is killing me! Tell me! I must know!
    • MaXiMuM32, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5is just an "excuse to the consumer".
  • CoreyP319, on 10/12/2007, -16/+5Honestly Ninja Gaiden does NOT look that stunning to me.
  • AngryRoach45, on 10/12/2007, -12/+0not a relative term. Some stuff is easier than other stuff.
  • harvinator24, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11***** this midterm, i give in digg. I will read anything you send at me. But please let it be the answers to this dam physics midterm.
    • topbravo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7i feel you man, Organic Chemistry and Digg do not mix well.
    • CedEx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I pray that it's not too late...

      F=ma

      I hoped that helped a little bit.
  • nyarrgh, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1Well, I'm neither an XBOX nor a PS3 fanboy, I want them both. Just commenting on the article itself, Yosuke Hayashi actually does not deny that PS3 is hard to develop for. Whether that is true or not, I do not personally know.
  • MouseCircus, on 10/12/2007, -14/+3Bury this, please.
  • CrimsonBlur, on 10/12/2007, -12/+17Nothing against this guy personally, and I know they make great games, but his argument here makes no sense at all. The architecture of both the 360 and Wii is easier to develop for, period. In addition to that, the development tools MS has made for the 360 are better than what Sony has come up with for the PS3 and Nintendo's development tools are great as well. Every single comment I have read from cross-platform developers on the subject has made that point. Even in this article, his only point is that because it's harder, developers just need to put in the extra effort. Well duh! Does that really need to be pointed out? The thing is, why should developers have to commit more time, money and resources to develop for the PS3 when the 360 is easier, has better dev. tools, and currently has a larger install base? Why would small developers choose the PS3 over the Wii?

    Obviously there will still be great, important games developed for PS3, and I would hope they all put in the effort necessary, but the fact is, it costs them more to do it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with developers pointing that out and being disappointed in Sony for not coming up with a more friendly architecture to develop for. Not every game studio has the money and resources that a developer like Team Ninja has at their disposal. What happens to the developers that want to innovate, that want to create great games, but don't have the resources or the budget to develop for the PS3? They develop for the Wii or the 360. Why would a developer choose the most expensive development platform to release games they aren't confident will sell well? I don't think it's the developers that are missing the point, I think he's missing their point.
    • Alucardbsm, on 10/12/2007, -13/+6Personally I think you're missing the point. I don't believe that the PS3 would be any harder to code for than the xbox 360 or the wii. Where you start having problems is that the PS3 and the xbox 360 has greater processing power and graphics abilities. The game itself would be just as easy to code for any of the system (for example, katamari damacy would be just as easy to code in the wii as the PS3 and the xbox 360 [how much different could c++ code be?]) but the detail in the textures are starting to become much more difficult to implement. It's not that the PS3 is somehow harder to code for because it comes from (omgguyz!11!) sony, but because the textures and graphic differences make more code (and thus, harder to make). It's the differences in the amount of graphics to take advantage of the hardware that you put in it that make the difference. Every programmer should know this...
    • CrimsonBlur, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12@Alucardbsm
      Actually, no, that's not really even close. The hardware architecture of the PS3 is fundamentally different from the 360 or the Wii. Because of that, the PS3 is harder to code for, that's the entire point. The PS3 isn't harder to code for because it comes from Sony, it's harder to code for because they chose to base it off of the Cell architecture. I won't go into all of the reasons why that makes it harder to code for, you can look that up yourself, but I can safely say that your analysis is incorrect.
    • mutantmagnet, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3"Even in this article, his only point is that because it's harder, developers just need to put in the extra effort. Well duh! Does that really need to be pointed out? The thing is, why should developers have to commit more time, money and resources to develop for the PS3 when the 360 is easier, has better dev. tools, and currently has a larger install base? Why would small developers choose the PS3 over the Wii?"


      It needs to be pointed out because he is also stating that many developers are using it as an excuse to produce a "crappy" product on the ps3. Determining quality of effort is relative especially when you don't know much about what it goes into developing any product.

      So since he already knows what it takes to work on a ps3 game he is just pointing out that gamers shouldn't put up with developers whining about being challenged.

      The whining is very ironic when one thinks about the numerous times a lot of developers make an argument they want to work on a system that pushes boundaries in technological development. Well now they have hardware that pushes gaming development in three very different directions.
    • CheezIt9109, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I guess Alucardbsm missed out on all the news that the general public would understand, *along* with his computer architecture classes :-P
    • popfrogs, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5It's not always a given that small, 3rd party dev groups will choose the Wii over the PS3. They always have the option of creating a small, fun game like Flow, Gripshift, Go! Sudoku, etc. that costs $5 to $10 and is available to everyone in the territories they choose through the Playstation Store.

      If I were a small dev house, I'd be knocking at Sony's door, trying to get in tight with them early. The PS Store is a wonderful way for small companies to get games 'out there'. Rather than taking a chance at pressing discs, marketing, etc. you just code a fun game and drop it on the network. There was no hype for Gripshift; it just kinda showed up one day on the PS Store, and went on to sell thousands of copies.

      Online delivery of independent games FTW.
    • Alucardbsm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0@CheezIt9109

      This was my personal opinion, as stated in the first sentence in my paragraph (all be it, I should have written that less arrogant). I did not say that I was correct (just a personal opinion) and I may very well be incorrect, but there is no reason for you to be an *****. I have never and probably will never code for any of the consoles (being a PC person myself) so it means very little to me, but please, shove it up your ass.
  • SSCrow, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Itagaki from Team Ninja said the same thing last year on an Interview on GameTrailers.

    http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=13053&type=mov&pl=game
    about 1/2 - 2/3 into the Video.
  • tvashtar, on 10/12/2007, -15/+13The PS3 is hard to develop for. I've worked with it, and worked with people heavily involved with both porting existing code to it and developing new code for it. We had regular visits from microsoft tech support guys and evangelists advising on 360 optimisations and architecture, but on PS3 all you get is a ***** compiler and IDE and extremely bad support for debugging and performance evaluation. The tools provided and available for the 360 simply blow the PS3's support away.
    • popfrogs, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10I guess you guys didn't stick around long enough for the January SDK update. All the devs I've talked to say the latest SDK is a huge improvement, plus you get limited scaler support.
    • fallenone05, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6no pain, no gain
    • sagdiyev, on 02/07/2008, -0/+0Well when Tiro Makisara releases the latest VLX integration all you XBOX 360 fanboys will learn the true power of vertical solar frames (VSF).
  • Abatrour, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4http://download.gamevideos.com/10182/gv.com.NinjaGaidenXboxSigmaPS3ComparisonHD_1280x720.wmv
  • xSEED, on 10/12/2007, -11/+9considering ninja gaiden was already made they just ported it
  • Druidictus, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2So no one wants to write games for this old controller based machine. It seems they know the money is in the Wii.
  • TheDiggPig, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3This game will bomb and he will have no one to blame but himself.
  • jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -13/+7Of course the PS3 isn't hard to develop for... when Sony is waving $$$ bills under my nose, that is...

    (Psss, it's actually a really difficult architecture to develop for. The PS3 is based on the CELL chip, which is a Power (RISC based) architecture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor) . You basically have to hand code the pipelines yourself to get the most efficient use of the processor (whic is great for a server! Just not for a console). Looks like the PS3 is going to be stuck in middle-ware hell again, which is fine, but the PS3 dev kit of lightyears behind that of the XBOX 360 and Nintendo Wii, in terms of time / quality / cost.)

    (Psss... if you look at the screenshots, Ninja Gaiden on the PS3 doesn't actually look like such a major improvement over Ninja Gaiden on the XBOX 1. Just a few tweaks, polygons, clearer textures and high-def. Certainly not the bump in graphics you've come expect in each previous generation of video game consoles!)

    But, hey, I'm not going to say these things, because I don't actually know what I'm talking about and Sony gives me nice incentives to speak nicely about the PS3.
    • alx242, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Some might say that handling the pipelines with different code blocks is cumbersome, I call a great way to optimize. You would not get this from an architecture which would do all the handling for you but neither would you get as much power out of it. Besides it all comes down to the tools which could automate this process. And Psss...it's not so bloody hard to pipeline stuff it is just different.

      And Psss...check out the high def comparison video before talking about not much difference in the graphics...it's more then noticeable .
    • ironyinc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Why are you even mentioning that it's a RISC architecture? All three systems run on RISC processors.
    • FormulaOne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2(Psst...it's actually 'Psst')

      (Psst...if you look at the high definition screenshots you'll notice that Sigma looks incredible. Incidentally, if you think Sigma is just a port then you know nothing about Sigma)

      (Psst...the Cell, Xenon and Broadway are all PowerPC RISC CPU's. The Cell was developed by Sony, Toshiba and IBM (STI) as a high performance multimedia / gaming CPU. You need to learn more about the Cell, apparently. By the way, the Playstation EDGE tools and the GSM Replay tools beat anything on the 360)

      Also, why would Sony wave money in front of you when you're ignorant about the Cell and the PS3?
  • goffy59, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1Its all about the computer games.
  • Marthinus, on 10/12/2007, -12/+8I prefer PS3 dev to be more difficult than 360, I hate the junk that clueless game developers create for easy platforms like PC and 360, all the lame programmers are scared of more difficult development, thus all the lame programmers will stick to PC and 360 platforms and the talented programmers will develop for PS3.
    • smallwang, on 10/12/2007, -8/+8@Marthinus

      You are a retard, Any decent programmer would always rather take the most efficient and productive route. Why ***** reinvent the wheel. 360/wii is easier to develop for then the ps3, that is a stone cold fact. Why work extra hard to dev a game for the ps3 when you can make it equal if not better for the 360, with less time and cost.
    • jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10spoken like a true non-developer

      hey guys, lets all program in 100% ASM language again!!! It's better because its more difficult!

      ironic coming from someone who vites on a mono / .net story
  • vraa, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Dude, they've got F@H on the PS3.
    It can't be *that* hard to develop for :D

    [serious mode]But really, of course it's going to be difficult, historically Sony's devel tools have been a little odd. Didn't the Xbox1 have many directx api's? I'm going to assume that Xbox360 is a big extension of that... anyone know for sure? Look at the hardware as well -- I think both the Xbox360 and PS3 are very difficult to code for with multi cores and very specialized processors. Just wait and see the games a year from now -- once more tricks and skills are revealed we'll see some major graphical advances and what not.[/serious mode]
  • Druidictus, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1Sorry to say that due to PS3 not having a MOD chip, the unit's sales will suffer and therefore user base. Indirectly not everyone wants to buy every game they want for a console as it would be far too expensive in a industry that wont reduce prices for commonality.

    The PS3 has really positioned itself in a very exclusive market that will probably die for this very reason.
    • topbravo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5So explain the death of the dreamcast.... one of the easiest hackable consoles ever.
    • drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1Dreamcast failed for several reasons

      -It lacked 3rd party support. No 3rd party support = slow game releases.
      -They did a piss poor job of marketing it.
      -If memory serves, it was outrageously expensive compared to the PS/2 and gamecube
      -Also, if memory serves, they released it way late in the game. They missed the prime sales window.
  • mccrackza, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Dumb @ss ....

    So because the console hasnt been cracked yet it's going to be a failure.... go back under that rock u came from and think about what u just said.
  • TexanPsycho, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3Probably true but I'm still not buying a PS3 and never will.
  • TheNetMaster, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@BentSea
    "And no matter how you spin it, a REMAKE is not worth buying a system for, not with 3 new levels, a second playable character, and refined combat..."

    And how many people do you know that buy ANY $100+ console for just ONE game, hm? You buy the console for the library - some people always try to justify a console purchase with a single new release title.........

    More game releases (especially more exclusives, etc) = more consideration for buying the console - Why are people always trying to justify dropping half a grand on a single title - no matter WHAT console that is???
    • cthellis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Well, I almost bought an N64 just for Mario 64, but... ultimately even THAT couldn't make me shell out $200 + cart.

      Just think of how difficult it'd be for any of the systems NOW! ;-)
    • drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3You used the wrong game to justify the cost of the system.

      You bought an N64 for Golden Eye. There were no other games for the N64.
    • cthellis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Nah. STILL wouldn't buy any console for an FPS. Different sensibilities.
    • Tanath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Dude, Perfect Dark owned Goldeneye. But at least you got the name right.
  • HydraulicToast, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7the man who made ninja gaiden is telling us what is hard?
  • SteelChicken, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6unless any of you actually work for a game development company doing development on these consoles none of your opinions are worth a *****.
    Oh wait, thats true in every story, in every discussion. That is the essence of Digg! A bunch of idiots arguing over subjects of which they have no experience in!

    • popfrogs, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Yeah Digg is like Slashdot with a lobotomy.
  • FishRHuman2, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2PS3 hard to afford? Yes, says me!
  • modifiedbears, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3When all the support documents are written in your native tongue I'm sure it's a bit easier.
  • crcurran, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Despite what anyone says in this thread, relatively speaking the PS3 is harder to developer for than the other two consoles. It's new technology, so with any new tool in the toolbox, it will take time to master it
  • Goken, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13I don't understand the PS3 bashing. Everyone knows that it is a powerful machine that outclasses the xbox 360. Each and every day I am getting closer and closer to buying a PS3.
    • drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -11/+5Technically, the PS3 is a great machine.

      However, due to Sony pushing Blu-Ray, the cost is way higher than most gamers are willing to spend on a system. Also, what good are breath-taking graphics if you have to have an HDTV to enjoy them? Keep in mind that most people don't care THAT much about the graphics difference between the 360 and PS3. Why would I want to pay 2-300 more to play a game i can play on the 360? The Wii makes games that are unique and immersive, 360 has most of the action market dominated already, the PS3 is kinda floundering around trying to figure out what to do.

      Sony's marketing strategy has also been rather....odd. I've watched some of their commercials and couldn't help but say "Huh?" Instead of trying to market the machine, they need to market the games for the machine.

      PS3 will eventually dominate the market, but not until the price comes way down, and they have a game library worth playing.
    • MORGiON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9dosn't the X360 elite price void this blu-ray argument?
    • GawtMilk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@drmangrum

      You can play games on your computer monitor. Think of it this way: Run your computer at 640 x 480, then switch to 1600 x 1200 and you get a rough comparison between 1080p and 480p graphics. You don't need an expensive monitor to distinguish between 1920 x 1080 and 720 x 480, the difference is visible on cheap monitors and televisions.

      The PS3 isn't floundering at all, neither is the Wii or the 360. They've all got dedicated developers, they've all got system exclusives, they've all got large install bases.

      Regarding ads, what are you talking about? Haven't you seen the "in this forrest, there are twenty trillion leaves" or "in this grenade, there are six hundred pieces of fragmentation"? Those ads talk about the capacity of Blu-Ray and the power of the Cell. All the Wii ads market is the Wiimote...they both discuss hardware, not just games.

      And finally, the cost obviously isn't way higher than what gamers are willing to spend, considering 2,800,000 people have bought one.
    • heinousjay, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2"Everyone knows that it is a powerful machine that outclasses the xbox 360."

      Anything to back this statement up? I haven't been that impressed with the PS3 yet and I'm a total graphics whore.
    • Freeskier, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@drmagnum, Your price difference is invalid. The true price difference is $120 to $200. Even this price quote is slightly inaccurate due to the inclusion of Blu-Ray. You cannot compare the low-end model of the X360 to the high end model of the PS3. That's like comparing a base model non-turbo 300ZX to a Twin Turbo Supra.

      With the release of the "Elite", the base model of the PS3 is only 20 bucks more. Its kind of wierd how closely they are priced together now.

      And btw, I already own a 360 and when some better games come out, I will pick up a PS3. I'm no fanboy
    • ElimGarak, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0Just because it is a more powerful machine doesn't mean that the end user will see much advantage of that power. Lets say you have 10 million to develop a game on PS3, and 10 million on 360. On PS3 3/4ths of that money will go towards engine/code development. On 360 1/2 will go towards coding, and 1/2 towards art, testing, storyline development, etc. Which of these two games will be more fun? I am guessing the one where there is more time/money for development of fun stuff, instead of race condition debugging.

      I am just throwing out numbers, but you see my point.
  • tekrat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Maybe Yosuke Hayashi shouldn't be talking so much smack. After all, his game isn't out yet but others have put theirs out already. I wonder what his ninja would have looked like at the PS3 launch?
  • misfit410, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Yea, porting an existing game was not tough at all.....
  • visarya, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4is M$ also giving away money for anti PS3 posts and blogs
  • BlauAngel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0If there is a console out there that is "hard" to develop games for, in my opinion, is the Wii. I say this only because how are developers going to make a game that really uses the wiimote and the nunchiaku while giving the player a compelling storyline to keep you going and gameplay that just isn't a gimmick like almost all other wii games are? (like party games)
  • FormulaOne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1
    It's so amusing seeing these idiots doubt the claims of Yosuke Hayashi, director of Ninja Gaiden Sigma, on the ease of PS3 development. After all, who are we to believe? Someone that actually creates PS3 games or a bunch of Digg retards that have dabbled in Visual Basic. PS3 development is relative in that accomplished PS2 developers will have an easy time transitioning to a new programming model while traditional PC developers will have issues.

    Additionally, the delivery of the Playstation EDGE tools place the development tools on par with the 360. One tool in particular, the GCM Replay allows developers to perform real time profiling of the RSX thus allowing them to maximize the performance of the RSX.
  • an0nym0us, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2*read excerpt of article*
    *scroll down to read comments*

    fanboi! fanboi! fanboi!

    *scroll way down*

    dumbas, dumbas, dumbass,

    *gave up on commenting and close the tab*
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