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79 Comments
- Sanchez, on 10/12/2007, -1/+58Patent trolls, hurrah!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+52The joystick port interface includes an integrated circuit receiving an analog joystick position measurement signal and outputting a digital pulse signal to a processor which signifies a joystick coordinate value. The integrated circuit includes a pulse generator and a bidirectional buffer circuit. The bidirectional buffer circuit receives the analog joystick position measurement signal and selectively discharges an RC network capacitor which provides this analog measurement. This implementation provides a joystick port which uses low-voltage CMOS VLSI structures which can interface a conventional high-voltage joystick with the processor.
http://tinyurl.com/yj7vbf
The N64 had this when it came out in 1997.
The patent was filed in 1998. *****? - masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+48A simple fix to our patent woes -- add a clause at the end of the process for filing a patent that states something similar to, "If you have no intention of constructing, nor will you ever construct or materialize the process/invention mentioned in the patent then the patent shall be voided."
- golhra, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25I hate patents. They'll really hindering the progression of good ideas in technology.
- Jolls, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21sigh, i hate people sometimes. stupid trolls and their money grabbing schemes
- Doghound, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18@iamcitizen
According to the article, the patent is for a device that runs at lower than 5V of electricity. The patent claims that, while current implementations (probably refering to N64's controllers) use 5Vs for its circuitry, future versions of the technology will utilize much less. So, they basically created a patent that says "We know that we'll be able to use this to sue people in the future if companies start using analog joysticks with circuitry using less than 5Vs."
Kind of lame, really. I hope one of these companies takes the time & money to fight them. - EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13"I hate patents. They'll really hindering the progression of good ideas in technology."
Agreed, the patent system is broken. The whole purpose of patents is to encourage innovation by allowing true inventors to profit by giving them an exclusive franchise for their invention for a fixed period of time. This patent process forces inventors to detail the workings of their invention--spurring further innovation when the patent expires.
Unfortunately the entire process has been fouled by patent squatters and the accelerating pace of technology. Software patents need to be outlawed, patent periods need to be shortened, the USPTO needs to expand its peer review efforts, requirements for inventions to be non-obvious need to be strengthened, and measures need to be taken against patent squatters.
The only people winning right now are the lawyers. - scotus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13actually, immersion would license it to sony, and i don't think it would cost all that much (msft and nintendo don't have problems). the reason sony didn't put it in was simply to spite immersion and try to hurt their business. i don't think it really had anything to do with cost, and everything to do with trying to hurt a small, innovative company because they beat the pants off sony. sony did tons of terrible things in that trial.
- baxtermaddux, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10jeez. isnt there a statute of limitations or something. these devices have been out since my balls dropped.
this just in: the guy who invented the wheel has risen from the dead and is suing Firestone, All car manufacturers, wheelbarrow makers, and Whamo-O makers of the Hula Hoop - timxpx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8this patent business confuses the hell out of me. maybe it's because everything i know about patent law i learned from comic books. i just don't see how you can patent using a different voltage.
- edzieba, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7With wireless controllers, isn't the point now moot? There aren't any more joystick ports, except for the 360's wired controllers, but I don't think they could possibly construe this to cover USB. Then again...
- MouseCircus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Nintendo was never sued by Immersion. Nintendo created their own motors and patented their own design which they have used since the rumble paks for the N64 controllers. They entirely avoided that situation.
Microsoft eventually settled, and has now licensed the design from Immersion. And Sony decided to fight it out, only to eventually lose.
@WhereAmI
The simple fact that 360 controllers are CHEAPER than SIXAXIS controllers disproves your argument. Sony couldn't get over their stupid pride, and because of that, the consumer loses. - DLPotts, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Few things to point out here. 1) I don't know who filed the infringement on this patent. 2) I am one of the inventors of this patent (DLPotts from Royersford, PA). I have no idea how they expect this to fly in court. Why? The idea of the patent directly ties to JOYSTICK PORTS on PC's, and NOTHING else. The Joystick port on the PC is a 5volt open collector port that uses sampled time to determine if the potentiometer has moved or not. Eventually the semiconductors involved dropped to 3.3 volt and thus the Joystick port would not function any more. The Patent reflects how the port had to be modified to accept a current joystick (ones designed to run on 5 volt) and still be accurate. The idea behind the design was not to stop people from inventing a low voltage joystick such as Nintendo, Sony and MS have done, but a way to use the (then current) joysticks in future systems.
Since none of the game consoles involved actually use "PC JOYSTICK" ports (they have created their own ports), and they are not interfacing to the analog PC joysticks of the time; there is no way that this would ever stand up in court.
I would also like to give a shout out to Jalil Fadavi of this patent too; he lost his battle to cancer a few months back.. He was a great man. - cmdrNacho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Im hoping they all get together to fight it.... maybe patent reform will finally get some real attention. This is getting to be re - god - damn - diculous
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I just patented the English language bitches!
Sucker on that one for a second while I contemplate how many zeros I should had after my 1 when I sue you all!
*Dr. Evil Laugh* - kylesellers, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Japan has one thing going for them in their civil legal system. If you bring a case and the case is deemed "without merit", you pay for the legal proceedings.
A similar change in the US could cut down on all this crap. - WhereAmI, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Immersion sued all successfully before. Sony fought it out while Microsoft and Nintendo paid out of court. We all know Sony lost. This is why we do not have a DualShock 3, not because Immersion won't allow it, the pricing on the DualShock 3 would go up too high for Sony to make enough profit to allow it. Maybe Immersion will lower it soon as they are losing money.
My main point is: how can this effect, if at all, the controllers? - brbubba, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If your company only consists of two lawyers sitting in a room and all they work on is one lawsuit, then, yes, I would be worried.
This patent business is getting out of control, someone needs to nip this one in the bud. - staticneuron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@MouseCircus
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7457575&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat94400050007&id=1126591945583
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8150029&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat103600050010&id=1161732981451
Looks like the controllers are the same price to me.
Immersions patent
original:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,088,017.PN.&OS=PN/6,088,017&RS=PN/6,088,017
ammended:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,275,213.PN.&OS=PN/6,275,213&RS=PN/6,275,213
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,424,333.PN.&OS=PN/6,424,333&RS=PN/6,424,333
http://www.siggraph.org/s2000/exhibition/detail/203.html
http://www.immersion.com/corporate/patents/patent_portfolio.php
Nintendo dogded the bullet only because they had one motor used for haptic feedback on the N64 and the GC while MS and Sony used two. This is a very generic patent and was created just to exploit another company. MS settled out of court then bought a portion of immerssion. I really hoped that like sony, Ms would have fought it and squashed it because we have seen two more of these obvious patent squatting cases come up and I have a sneaky feeling that we might see even more after this.
Immersions lawsuit was BS. The people who just tried to sue nintendo had a BS patent and now this one is also BS.
I wish people would put their fanboy capes on the coat rack for a second and actually agree on something that is hurting the gamming community. - Chompy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Patent trolls are bottom-feeding gutterslime parasites that contribute nothing to society and instead rob it of good ideas and innovations. The world would be a better place with them and they deserve execution.
- ninjasquirrel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Immersion sued and was successful because they actually had a case. They had spent time and money developing a technology that Sony and others then ripped off. Microsoft settled, Nintendo developed their own technology (single motor rumble pack) and Sony tried to save some cash and ended up with egg on their face, not that they'll ever admit it (or pay the fine/licensing fees).
This new suit, on the other hand, is just an essentially non-existent sham of a company who managed to play the completely useless US patent system into awarding them a patent for an obvious and already in use technology that they could then attempt (hopefully unsuccessfully), to use in order to wring money out of the most public players they could find. - Easty, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5It's legal rape time.
Anyone got some lube of justice? - BigCalhoun, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Exactly. It must be nice to sit on your arse and think of ways to scam people. Geesh.
- Mosatii, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@volcompimp
Yea, it's the only place to find intelligent comments. - bickman2k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You mean ice cubes DON'T have a patent yet?
- Elranzer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Let's give Fenner Investments the benefit of a doubt. I'm sure they've got a killer game console planned for release any day now.
- combatchuck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I have to say, I would fight tooth and nail on this one. The plaintiff in this case is a company whose sole business model is to patent things that already exist and sue the companies that use those patents. This is a BAD THING, and needs to stop. If I were Sony, I would have appealed all the way to the Supreme court, and countersued, and take potshots at their headquarters with ballistic missiles. These people are scum on a whole new level.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5yeh good luck with trying to win a lawsuit against Microsoft. sony and nintendo, you may have a chance.
- GrantTheGr8, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@cmdrNacho: That's what Sony claimed because they didn't want to look like a bunch of asses, but the fact that the Wiimote has vibration built in pretty much disproves their claim. I really think they were just making ***** up.
*edit: OK, so I should have refreshed the page before commenting. Feel free to bury me now. - jkoski, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I'm just waiting to hear how Sony should be sued out of existence while Nintendo and should be exempt because they are so innovative and fun and Microsoft because.... because they're not Sony.
- DragonQuester, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is such *****. Just some gay corporation trying to scam the big 3 of their money.
- MouseCircus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hurting the gaming community? Yes, Immersion's patent was a bit vague, but it perfectly described a dual-motor vibrating system. This is Immersion's business. They make a profit out of vibration. You make it sound as if though they were trying to get rid of vibration as a whole. Vibration isn't what they patented. What they patented is the dual-motor design that both the Xbox controllers and DualShocks had.
Oh, and it helps if you shop around. Amazon disagrees with you.
Xbox 360 controller: 37.99
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B6MLUA/ref=pd_kar_gw_1/103-4331257-4340664
SIXAXIS controller: 49.99
http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000K1CS5Y/ref=s9_asin_title_1/103-4331257-4340664 - insomniac8400, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The microsoft controller is a usb controller with a different end on it. My guess is this lawsuit isn't going to hold up at all.
- otatop, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"The simple fact that 360 controllers are CHEAPER than SIXAXIS controllers disproves your argument. Sony couldn't get over their stupid pride, and because of that, the consumer loses."
In Sony's defense the 360 controller comes with a set of Energizer AAs, while the SIXAXIS has a rechargeable battery built in.
"The playstation 3's sensors are in the controller, while the Wii's sensors are external."
ameba, are you high? The Wii remote does the sensing, just like the SIXAXIS. The so called "sensor bar" just emits an infrared signal the remote uses to track its position. - nickerbocker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What if Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony all just joined forces to squash this obvious patent squatter. I don't see how a company can go from having patents for joysticks to patents for remote handling of communications networks. I don't think science and math should be patent-able. It would be like if someone patented ice cubes or addition.
- jmzook, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Patent trolls like Fenner rank about ten levels below septic tank sludge.
- marcan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1From the Immersion patent: "A system according to claim 1, wherein said eccentric mass is pie-shaped. "
Does that mean all they had to do to dodge the patent was make the mass non-pie-shaped? Seems pretty trivial to me. - Talesk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1 I think we we should stop selling to USA , companies keep getting screwed by patent trolls.
**sarcasm** - pak314, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This technology looks like the same kind of method used on the Atari 2600 paddle and the like. A pulse is generated into an RC network and the exponential voltage decay response is compared to when it crosses a known reference voltage. The time response is propotional to the RC constant. The resistor R is a variable resistor which encodes the position and the capacitor C is picked to give a reasonable range for the delay. Even 555 timer chips from decades back used the same technique.
- Sethwm2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1All this fighting is only making it hard for everyone else I don't think that this fighting is a good thing. The function of a controller should not be able to get a patented. The only time I think that the companies should fight is if they look the same
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@thatsiebguy
Universal SERIAL Bus :( - Dibbz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ah you guys don't understand what I meant by analogue buttons. I'm talking about the fact that every button in on the SIXAXIS has (i think) 32 levels of sensitivity, not just pressed and not pressed (o and 1). My bad Isued the word analogue in the wrong context there.
- Zippo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've got a funny feeling you're not gonna beat Nintendo or Sony's lawyers either.
This is all just some douchebag trying to have his patent interpreted in a way that gets him free money. - phenry1970, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I can't help but think you'll be getting friendly calls from Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft before long, possibly before I finish this sentence.
Do you have any idea who Fenner Investments is or how they ended up with your patent? - theblackgecko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It's not the little company, it's a bunch of @$$hole lawyers who know the expected value of such lawsuits is positive.
Hell is too nice a place for such people. - BullTaco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If you are a listed inventor on the patent then there is a chance that you might be subpoenaed under FRCP 45 as part of this suit.
IANLBITTMBH
(IAin'tNoLawyerButIThoughtThisMightBeHelpful) - NikoKun, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1this is so rediculious... this is over the ports for controllers? god dam, those have beena around for 20 years? XD i hate patent trolls...
- MrLunar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hmmm. Nothing much to say other than all they're trying to do is squeeze money out of them.
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6297751&id=sXcIAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=6,297,751#PPA13,M1 - aschocobo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"pocketbook vs POCKETBOOK + POCKETBOOK + POCKETBOOK"
true, but that's not the point. all three companies probably won't even need to do much spending on this suit. they would probably only need to point to their past products. these guys are nothing but patent trolls, and really stupid ones, if they can't realize that all three companies had either already filed patents, or had products on the market that utilized analog joystick/control scheme long before this patent was even filed. - DLPotts, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I would be truly amazed if any of the joysticks in any of the consoles still used the craptastic analog pc joystick interface at the low level. There were so many better ways to create joystick interfaces and thus I don't think this could be realistic. Having a direct interest in this (as listed above) I have been trying to think of a way that this could be applied. I am guess that the analog section could be done simular to the original joystick interfaces and this there might be some merit in the suit. I would have to rip apart one of those joysticks and see what they are doing; I never thought that there could be a sampling chip doing that type of logic. And since all chips are now 3.3volt, yah there could be some merit there.
Damn I hate lawyers. But it is something to think about.. I do have an old PS1 joystick that has an analog controller that is malfunctioning, maybe I should rip it apart and see what they did.... -
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