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80 Comments
- DiggityDugged, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13hopefully in 10 more years companies won't need us pointing this out anymore, and their salaries and design docs will allow for them to take the medium for storytelling to new levels. they know there's a demand for it, it's just the investors that are unwilling to take the risks. give it time tho
- zerokill, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16That would be awesome. If indie developers could make quality games with the same depth as the big titles. Just like Indie movies at the moment. I really hope that that will be the future of video games.
With the Wii emerging I am actually scared we will lose a lot of the "mature" things that games have gotten in the past years. And no I dont mean blood etc but complex stories that do almost reach something close to a good movie or literature. - zerokill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9considering he writes a blog for destructoid, yes he probably does know a bit about gaming and is probably also a bit closer to the developer community then the average person.
That and off coarse because he wrote a good post.... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9*sigh* But that's why I play video games, for the simple escapism. I don't want my games to be thought-provoking, I want to have a good time. Besides, having the story be a major point of the game kills replay value, because once you've gone through the story, you're not as motivated to keep playing. I mean, sure, that first time, you keep playing to find out what happens next, but once that's gone, a lot of what drive you to play is taken away.
- zerokill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6making a game with a good story doesn't mean you have to kill replay... Games like FFX give you tons of extra stuff to do after you have completed the game.
You could also make a game that gives you a lot of choice on how you wish to develop your character, like in Knight of the old Republic. - Gnome1300, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Oh he does. But he seems to have a basic grasp of life and art too. Generally very interesting -even though rather simplistic- piece.
- Hipple, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"This guy knows nothing about video games? Is he a producer? Me neither, but he knows nothing about video games."
Do you have to be a producer to know something about video games? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who know things about movies and literature who are not producers or directors or writers, so I don't really see what you're trying to say. He's a gaming journalist, and I'm sure his qualifications for that title are far beyond any gaming credentials that you have. In fact, I have no idea what you're basing that judgment on, so feel free to elaborate. Perhaps you're a fanboy of WWII shooters, in which case you know a lot less about video games than you probably think you do. - Hipple, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I don't think he objects to entertaining/escapist games being made, he just doesn't like that EVERY game has to be like that. Variety is the spice of life, and all that. In any case, I don't think there's any danger that your games will stop being made. Developers will be pumping out Space Marines vs. Aliens games until the cows come home.
- Pontificator, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Escapism isn ’t enough: it’s about time for video games to be disturbing, depressing, timely, political, thought-provoking, and, above all, meaningful."
To be meaningful and thought provoking they have to be intelligent, and they can't be intelligent because the most money is made by catering to the lower common deminator.
That's not to say there can't be a niche of intelligent work as in indie film, but I'm afraid the industry is headed in the exact opposite of the direction you're lusting after. - echonull, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Why this distinction? Games are a medium, same as paintings and books and TV and movies. Some of the content will be simple, devised primarily to entertain. Some will be applied in service of a higher calling, conveying a message and evoking a response from the player. This issue is one that's plagued every popular medium as it rose towards popularity, and each one both was ridiculed as incapable of reaching the heights of the Proper Arts of the past and staunchly defended by the younger generation that embraced it.
Games afford a chance to go through a situation and take some responsibility for the outcome. (As did Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books, incidentally.) That is a powerful tool that game creators can use to draw in the player, but the result shouldn't necessarily be less entertaining, or less deep, for the effort. - ronito, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5There is absolutely no reason why the Wii cannot deliver a mature and fully realized compelling story. The only thing that is different is the input. And to those who complain about graphics, look at games such as Shadowrun (Genesis), Phantasy Star IV or FFVI they delivered a compelling and mature story despite graphical limitations.
- Blandyman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3wageslaven:
Working in the industry, I really would love for us to be able to pull that off. And, although I have no doubts that it'll happen EVENTUALLY, it's a little far-fetched to assume that you can just create the world you play in, in a sense. I think, if anything, unless I'm misinterpreting your comment, RPG Maker (although horrid) and its ilk are the closest you'll be getting to a "create-your-own-world" style of game.
The costs of creating what would be a living, breathing world, with all of these different things that can occur, is out of our reach, for the time being, at least. Many games have done it on a smaller scale (Oblivion, although epic, is small compared to some of the loftier goals and ideas being tossed around) and have done them extremely well, but then again, it's not always a change-as-you-see-fit style... it's more of a what-do-I-want-to-do-next style.
We're actually working on a concept similar to what you're saying, but again, it's always hard to pull off a free-for-all, do-as-you-please world. The budget and time constraints are just too much to create anything of the sort, unless the project was funded by profits from other projects and built in the background for many years.
Maybe one day, but in the near future? Doubt we'll see it.
And I trailed off somewhere. I'm watching Harry Potter. - Bodhesatva, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't think we're even close right now, but I agree it's possible. There have been vague attempts at high art by people like Peter Molyneux and Wil Wright, but they're not even in the same stratosphere as, say, a Picasso, Woody Allen, or Dostoevsky.
The truth is -- the developers of games that are intended to be meaningful have also got to accept that their games will be less popular. Who is more read: Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, or John Grisham? Who more seen: Woody Allen, Akira Kurosawa, or Steven Spielberg? The point being -- meaningful art is complex and intellectually intricate, and thus not really accessible or enjoyable for most people.
There are quite a few hurdles to cross, but the first I see is financing. Who is going to dump millions of dollars into a project intended for more sophisticated adults in an arena traditionally dominated by children and younger people looking for pure, unadulterated explosions and action? - futureisours, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Who needs a story and exposition. I actually play video games for mindless fun and carnage.. the story notsomuch. If I want an actual story I'd rather read a book or watch a decent movie.. games are my mindless entertainment.
- loganhid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Hideo Kojima has been doing thes for years
- Dumbledorito, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3For one, I liked sandbox games. Give me a big ol' environment to play in that I can affect. If there's plot to follow, it's my choice to follow it. If I just want to pick up a bazooka and blow holes in every Starbucks I see, that's available too. Also, unless I'm made well aware of consequences, I hate it when small screw-ups or something insignificant I did several hours ago means I can't advance.
But here's a question: Can the video game market segment itself more, production-wise, and become more streamlined? I mean, when one makes a movie, one doesn't have to build the camera from scratch. Sets can be purchased, as can costumes, etc. I know some of this is going on in the gaming industry, where one can license an engine, but perhaps making things for various bits of games could be more mainstreamed, so a game "creator" doesn't have to re-invent the wheel every time. - ShugNinx21, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The problem with video games is that people try to pigeonhole all video games into the same category and think they all should follow the same formula.
Games first and foremost should be entertaining, that's what they are made for. It doesn't matter if they accomplish this because the game was thought provoking, disturbing, depressing, meaningful, full of mindless carnage, or provided escapism. A good game is a good game and is entertaining. - wageslaven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Give the Video Game industry time to grow. It only existed for 25 (maybe) 30 years in any meaningful form. In time, the tools of making videogames -- and the audience -- will liberate the creators to make *any* world, and give you *any* goals within it.
This is the future of gaming. ITs not about "fun" vs "serious" (where serious is disturbing, depressing, timely, political, thought-provoking) its about having Fun in *any* kind of world. No one is suggesting the "disturbing, depressing, timely, political, thought-provoking" games have to be laborious, its the themes, moods and ideas.
Video games are going to have the technical obstacles removed, and we'll see The Sims -- where the *we* are the Sims and the "SimWorld" is any kind of story, or purpose the Developers want.
If we have learned anything about technology, this is the clearest direction of The Video Game -- to free the Developers into making *any* type of experience. - nathanwalker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Sorry, had to call you on this one...
"That and off coarse because he wrote a good post...."
So... off? coarse? "Of course" is what i think you meant.
When did I become a grammar nazi? - timetraveller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I read the article. It sounded like the author wants even more violence - e.g., the good guys dying, little girls being shot - so that he can "feel" something. If that's your idea of meaningful, I'll pass.
- shagen454, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2He said that no WW1 game has been created. What, does the great air simulation game 'Red Baron' released in 1990 not count?
- drinkGreen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2wtf?
Since when is escapism a bad thing? and why do games have to be more than escapism? A main reason I play video games is because it ISN'T the real world. Video games are the same as comic books used to be. Fantasy, hobby, enjoyment. Can it be more? Sure. But I don't need another thing in my life reminding me of corruptness, disease, children dying, etc. And its not ignoring. Ignoring would mean I don't ever want to hear that. I just need something I can go to and all my worries and stress drift away.
Call it an anti-drug, a "happy place", or escapism, but I think that's what video games are meant to be. - Rosco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2needs more Deus Ex, and less Sims.
- GopherChucks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That's a really great article. I actually felt sad, all over again, reading about Aeris.
That's all you've got to say. Aeris. - echonull, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@Zerokill,
What reason is there to assume that the Wii won't have any mature games?
Whatever troubles Sadness may be having, it looked from the start to be a serious, harsh, affecting work. The Metroid series has always had an edge to it that looks to have been honed nicely for Prime 3. No More Heroes is sure to be a demented, unbalanced romp, though admittedly it's going to walk the path of blood and guts to an M rating with or without the depth to put some meaning behind the word "mature".
Heck, Kazuma Kaneko even stated that he wants the next Devil Summoner game to come out on the Wii, in the style of the old first-person Shin Megami Tensei games, which have been a hallmark of mature RPGs throughout their (mostly overseas) history.
The Wii's sales were underestimated by everyone, and lots of third-party game makers have only recently realized the sheer number of people they'll reach even by tapping the fringe of the Wii's userbase. If that's enough copies sold for them to make a profit, (which should also be easier with the lower graphics budgets the Wii demands,) we should see serious games aplenty. People just need time to shift resources and push products to completion.
For now, we see titles that'd be quick to release, ergo the minigame-games and ports galore with tacked-on gesture commands. As made-for-wii-first games come into their own, I'm confident there'll be plenty to look forward to.
Edit:
Link to Kaneko interview: http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2006/09/01/next-devil-summoner-game-planned-for-ps3-and-wii.htm - RevAnthony, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm not protesting against the Wii, or even fun games in general. Games just need to do MORE, no matter what system they're on. And as someone in the comments mentioned, the Wii would hypothetically be a fantastic system on which to create artistic games: by making movements instead of just pressing buttons, the player is even MORE directly responsible for his avatar's actions.
- wageslaven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What if "what happens next" is up to you? And the developer creates a massive sandbox game with you to explore and change as you see fit?
Each of those "worlds" could be something more than jumping over the next barrier and running to the end in a dreamworld. I want games to grow into that kind of "anything" can happen world. - reason78, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"Escapism isn ’t enough: it’s about time for video games to be disturbing, depressing, timely, political, thought-provoking, and, above all, meaningful."
Games are supposed to be FUN, right? Come up with a new word if you want depression and meaningfulness. :P
Like umm "Video Dramas"? - Bodhesatva, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'd add, also, that the original poster doesn't seem to have a very good sense of what high art is, other than that it more frequently deals with sorrow and tragedy than it does with blissful happiness.
He quite literally equates sorrow and violence -- with no given shape or form -- as being meaningful inherently. Put more simply: the suggestion is that misery, by itself, is deep and profound JUST BECAUSE. It isn't. Statements like "misery is freakin awesome" are a good of example of why this is not true.
What makes high art high art is not its subject, but its intellectual and emotional complexity. As stated, this often DOES involve sorrow and tragedy, but certainly doesn't have to. What video games need to reach the high art plateau is a significantly more complex plot. Things like "the main character has amnesia and you have to figure out who he is" just aren't going to cut it. - ToastPop, on 04/17/2009, -0/+1I'm sure there is some kind of audience for these games... you see it in gaming blogs all the time. But I, for one, really don't want this. I can't bear to play Final Fantasy because between a battle every two steps, long dialogue, and tons of cinematics, it really leaves little room for what makes it a game. Don't get me wrong, FF does storytelling in a great way, but I don't think this is what most people are looking for in a game.
- PunishedOne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Wii will not be able to do a serious and mature game?
Uh.... The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, anyone? - hakz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1yeah but then the games released will just be boring. I wouldn't want to wander through maps I've already been through in another game. I would want a different game for each one I buy.
- wageslaven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"That doesn't mean exclude the audience who wants deeper games that our harder or the “hardcore” crowd, exactly the opposite that means EXPANDING the audience. Videogames can't be exactly like movies though where storyline is everything. The whole point of video games is being interactive, and lasting for more than 2-3 hours.If you're looking to have fun you play video games, if you're looking to FEEL something you get a tear-jerker novel or an amazing masterpiece motion picture. That's why the Wii interests me so. I am willing to sacrifice HD for interesting, new titles. Just like the DS has brought"
That does not compute. In fact, as the history of games say we are racing towards virtual reality (not the VRML nonsense) but photo realistic worlds. The DS is always a game. Just like the handheld games of 20 years ago. And the Wii shows Nintendo is going to stop in the race to this photo-realistic-virtual world. That is what will finally bring gaming into a full entertainment expereince -- when it is "not just a game" but a less-conspicuous interface into a story.
The Wii and DS are the LEAST capable of immersion, how do you expect the wider audience to "feel something" when they are always keenly aware of the Not Real? Put another way, how do your Wii/DS "expanded audience" feel about a 2D-blob-character and relate to it? Does this "suspension of disbelief" happen more or less easily than when that character is nearly indistinguishable from a human? In the West, is Animation a serious art form? or is it real-life film? Note, I am an anime fan, but i appreaciate people saying that they cannot see it and relate.
What you are saying is self-contradictory. - knulpm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yes and no.
I think videogame developers and fans have to state "This is ONLY where games should be going." Developers should be able to follow WHATEVER path they want to follow. Whether they be incredibly deconstructed simple games which are geinus into simplicity, or moral epics spanning numerous chapters with amazing character development. Neither is inherently better or worse than other and anyone who tells you the future is in only one direction is a fool.
Videogames are a big enough genre you can encompass whatever you want them to. If you do absolutely simplistic games or just "kill all the monsters FPS" or rescue the princess the genre will never mature. However, people want to play the goody goody Jedi knight or the Ultra violent Kratos and not have every games protagonist be an existential philosopher who comptemplates the futility of war and the true meaning of life, love, and loss half of the time in his game. - juicebag, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Video games have been more than "escapism" for years.
- Alimack, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've...seen movies. And I've played games. Does that count? Games like Resi 4 and Metal Gear Solid are pretty cinematic, and deeper in places than loads of films I've seen trailers for. Can I talk to you now? I guess if more games were like those two, it would be a good thing.
- dggeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Video games ARE meaningful, to me at least.
.... they are my friends... - CrimsonBlur, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Video games should not just be “fun.” They shouldn’t just serve as “entertainment.” - FTA
Video games already exist that educate as well as entertain, make you happy, sad, angry, teach you about history, etc. I'm not sure what the hell the author of this story is trying to get at. Everything he's asking for already exists. Just like movies, there are some games that are made simply to entertain, as escapism, that's their purpose, and it's a perfectly legitimate thing to want. There are also games that try to go beyond that, and just like all other forms of media (except maybe paintings), when you try to narrow your focus to a single (controversial/meaningful, etc.) topic or purpose, you also narrow your audience.
When you're talking about entertainment industries like video games and movies (and books to a certain extent), it means you have to accept the fact that you will not make as much money. I suppose that is the biggest hurdle... OK I just read the post above mine from bodhesatva and he's making the same point in his last paragraph I am here. His points are basically what I was going to say. Video games will always be dominated by children and younger people, it's just a fact. No matter how much the Nintendo generation ages and wants mature games, we're still not the dominant factor in what games get purchased, and many of us actually DO use games simply as escapism and simply don't care if it gets any deeper. - zerokill, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@nathanwalker: damn Firefox spelling checker ;)
- hakz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1would the developers want that though? They develop games because they love doing it. Streamlining game developing would probably make the developers life much easier but perhaps they would prefer to start from scratch every time, allows developers to make something different with each game
- freetyme, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I believe you are missing my point. How am I going to feel like I am interacting with the world around me by pressing buttons? The worlds may not look as realistic but the Wii has potential for my actions to translate into actions in virtual space, especially with the whole wii remote being able to be detected in 3-d space. Eventually yes next gen if motion sensing takes off it will be accompanied with amazing visuals. So then you will have your cake, and eat it too. More responsive and immersive controls, as well as great graphics. As for me though I believe that the control is always superior to graphics (though I try my best not to downplay graphics because I do not like PS2 ports on the Wii, they look really, really bad, the reason it upsets me is because it appears to me the Wii is capable of more). So this gen I will be getting a Wii, because of price, and controls.
- Jarasmen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2AWESOME article, to say the least. I hope this triggers some real discussion about the topic, because, well, gaming deserves to become something higher, something more.
Also, the idea of guiding a little girl through a battlefield is awesome. - zerokill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@echonull: Well Nintendo doesn't have a good track history on this. Games like Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid that really do a lot for the storytelling are not on the Wii and there are not a lot of similair games which focus heavy on the story on the Wii. The games that have been anounced at the moment are mostly just simple party games, or games which are of course fun but which don't try to incorporate a good/mature story.
- Blandyman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The end of your comment shows best what is hardest about making a sandbox style game so large and epic. Creating a game with all of that would cost too much, especially since developers always have to reinvent the wheel, and if not reinvent the wheel, we always have to manually mold the tires, if that makes sense.
The game industry should become more streamlined... it'd make developers' lives much easier. - caddyalan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1knulpm says, "...Neither is inherently better or worse than other and anyone who tells you the future is in only one direction is a fool." Well said. I'd like to see a balance between "arthouse" games and games which are just relaxing and fun.
- allisonaxe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1when discussing ff12, don't forget that your 'homeland' is a majestic city in the desert which has fallen to a technologically superior occupying force from a country of self-obsessed prima-donnas from far away, led by the rather nasty son of a rather acceptable former emperor. the whole thing just oozed current events (with a fantasy tilt and star wars storytelling)
- daveisfera, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Taking itself too seriously" is one of the biggest problems with the movie/TV industry. They are entertainment. Yes, it is good when they stir emotion or have a message, but their primary purpose is to entertain. I mean look at how many people complain about how full of themselves so many actors/directors are. This is a direct result of them seeing themselves as an "art form" instead of entertainment. Like I said before, entertainment can have emotion and a message, but it needs to be remember what it truly is or it will end up being too caught up with itself, like so much of the movie/TV industry.
- greevar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I felt emotionally moved by the dialog of "Prince of Persia: The Sands Of Time". The interaction between the prince and the princess had a great effect on me. Given, these exchanges were not in any way effected by me in the course of the game, but my point still being is that the game had emotional value. Oblivion is another example. There are many instances where something you are required to do is of morally ambiguous ground. Stealing for people, committing murders, assassinations, all of these would apply to this. I think the author needs to look a little deeper. Those are just two examples I pulled out of the air. I'm sure I could come up with more if I thought about it.
- vwvwvw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In FF12, the group assists or is part of an "insurgancy", so yes.
- echonull, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Wageslaven
I suggest you go through Hotel Dusk: Room 215 before you write off the DS for immersion, depth, and earnest maturity in its games.
As to the graphics/photorealism debate, I disagree. Perhaps due to a bias, growing up with an NES and a Genesis and still to this day feeling more from the character-deaths in Phantasy Star 2 than Final Fantasy 7. Game graphics have come to a point of diminishing returns. Beyond a certain level, it doesn't really aid player immersion and enjoyment to make a game look more real, especially so if you want the players to empathize with- and IDENTIFY with the characters rather than sympathize with them as outsiders like in a film. (Give Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" a read for a nice discussion of why cartoons characters promote a greater degree of identification than more realistic characters.) The Wii and DS can -- in the few instances they are used well -- offer players straightforward, intuitive links with the worlds they wander.
As the ultimate counterexample, FMV games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMV_game) were seen as the logical evolution of games, and certainly flopped thoroughly. I won't claim that's even the main reason that genre died, but I'm confident that it didn't help. -
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