What is Digg?162 Comments
- MouseCircus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+79Zelda isn't changing enough for you? Blame the fans.
What happened when Nintendo tried to change the formula? They created Wind Waker. And what happened to Wind Waker? Lots of people loved it, lots of people hated it. I'm sure Nintendo is getting lots of other ideas, but I think Twilight Princess was mainly created to satisfy the fans that were annoyed about what they did with Wind Waker. Wind Waker is essentially the Zelda II of this decade.
Miyamoto and Aonuma already stated that Twilight Princess would be the last Zelda "as we know it." I'm sure the next Zelda truly will make some revolutionary changes. After all, it will be the first Zelda made from the ground-up exclusively for the Wii. Twilight Princess was just a glorified GameCube game, and everyone knows it.
What I would really love to see is an article where someone analyzes why so many people tend to hate Zelda, and Nintendo franchises in general. Now that would be interesting.
Oh, and for the record, I wasn't bashing Twilight Princess. I bought the GameCube version because I didn't want to play as a right-handed Link, and I loved the game. My only complaint is that it felt a tad bit too short. - SLSSNAKE, on 10/12/2007, -9/+60I actually agree with this article.
I'm a die-hard Zelda fan (nerd). I had a Wii day one primarily for Zelda, and I played it through to near 100% completion. It's still a great game, as every game has been (for the most part). This one, however, left a bitter taste in my mouth- the formula is just getting old. It's good enough to remain fun now, but I can't imagine the next Zelda being received with much acclaim if it's like this (and I'm surprised to see TP get such praise as it has).
Nintendo said they were trying to make a game better than OoT, and they succeeded, but only because TP is OoT with a new coat of paint. It's probably the worst offender of all the 3D Zeldas since OoT. TP really was fanservice-- and when it's to a game like OoT, it didn't turn out too bad.
But I adore Zelda, and despite TP being a great game, I can see my attention starting to dwindle. It really is time for something new. - NipGrip, on 10/12/2007, -3/+40Here, I'll sum up this article:
"I've played all of the Zelda's and enjoy the franchise. Trust me, I know the Zelda formula after playing them all. But have you see Oblivion OMG *Splooooge* why can't Zelda be Oblivion!?!" - straxus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34@ilyag
I don't know about that. I found that in my late-teens/early-twenties, I felt like I had out grown Nintendo's style. Now that I'm about to hit thirty, I find what passes for 'adult' and 'mature' in the game industry juvenile. I also find myself drawn back to the simple fun of Nintendo's titles, and find the whimsical stylings a breath of fresh air. I wonder what I'll be playing at 40 and 50... - ChillHomie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+35I'm going to get dugg down because I didn't write a 200 word essay on the topic of zelda.
- BadassCheese, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26I have an idea, Zelda meets RoboCop. Link could have an assault rifle instead of a bow. It would be awesome.
- Guspaz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24I'd rather not see an open-ended game such as Oblivion. I like my games to be on-a-rail.
I find that in games that are more expansive, I have a strong urge to do everything. I develop an obsession with the possibility that I've missed something, and then get frustrated with how slowly the game is moving. Then I get bored and lose interest.
Zelda games have a lot of side-quests, but are still linear enough to keep my attention focused, to avoid getting frustrated and losing interest. While it's true that there is certainly room for improvement (the basic formula does need an overhaul, Windwaker might have had a unique visual style but it didn't do much to change the formula), I don't think moving in the direction of Oblivion is one of them.
The magic of the Zelda universe is that while there is some loose connectivity between the games in the timeline, each Zelda game is essentially a completely new set of characters who only happen to share the same names. There's no reason they couldn't dramatically change the plotline and game type from that of a typical Zelda game. Why couldn't Zelda be a playable character alongside Link, with both teaming up to stop an invading army being gathered by Ganon, fighting alongside the forces of Hyrule? That's just an example, I'm agreeing with the author that the gather-items-to-save-princess-Zelda-and-stop-Ganon formula could do with some change.
Orchestal music, I don't agree with. Just because Nintendo hasn't put much focus on real-time generated music doesn't mean that the current Zelda games are representative of the maximum possible quality of a synth. After all, Twilight Princess was a GameCube game, and there was a ton of unused power in the Wii version. Some of that extra power could have been spent on better music synthesis. Real-time software synthesis of music gives a lot of flexibility that pre-recorded music doesn't, and I'm all for continuing the tradition. Perhaps Nintendo should simply license a lightweight software synthesizer and reverb engine for use in their next Zelda game. If they did a good job of it, I bet most people would stop demanding orchestral music. - MouseCircus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21@orientis
I didn't mean that. Obviously, some people just won't like the game, but I meant "other" people. There's tons of people who insult, bash and criticize Nintendo franchises without ever having played them. In fact, Matt from IGN was talking about how a lot of the other IGN editors were making fun of Twilight Princess despite never having played it. It's like there's some weird stigma associated with Nintendo games. It reminds me of that one GameSpot editor who rated Twilight Princess an 8.8 for essentially no reason, other than because it's a Zelda game. Did I miss a memo?
There's nothing wrong with not liking the style of a game. There's dozens of games that I just couldn't play because I didn't like the way they looked. I disagree with you about the style; I don't think it's "cutesy" at all(I don't know what exactly is cute about Twilight Princess) but yeah, I respect your opinion nonetheless.
Anyway, digg me down for irrelevancy. - TheRingmaster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+19Oblivion is far from anything new, and its character interaction is far from revolutionary or even better than average. Oblivion, while a great game, is pretty much every western RPG with a new coat of paint and a good deal of dumbing down to make it console friendly. Not to mention Zelda is not and never should be a role playing game.
LoZ does need some big changes to mix stuff up, but emulating overrated RPG rehashes is not the way to go. TP is a gamecube game, and when they do release a true Wii Zelda title it will probably be far newer and fresher than anything we've seen in the series since OOT. - ModernTenshi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22Zelda is my absolute favorite series. If I were only allowed on video game a year, and there's a new Zelda title out, that would be my choice. I couldn't help but agree with this guy while reading it. Don't get me wrong, I think the Zelda games I've played over the last decade and then some have been fantastic (some more than others, obviously). However, he's completely right in saying that Twilight Princess had that, "been there, done that," factor going on. I agree with the mantra, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but that doesn't say that you can't improve upon what's already considered, "perfect."
Look at Resident Evil. The series was great (particularly the earlier games in my opinion), and while the control scheme was annoying as hell to get used to, it lent itself well to the mechanics and overall feel of the game. Then Capcom says, "yeah, we're gonna revamp this." I know I was thinking they were bound to ruin the series, and was a little disappointed they were taking the series in a, "bold new direction," because usually that's a way of saying, "we're going to ***** this up." Then I actually got my hands on the game, and loved it, even found myself saying, "why hasn't this been done all along?" So far, I've played through the game 3 times in full, working on a 4th time on normal, and I'm halfway through the harder difficulty (can't remember its name at the moment, I think it's agent, I dunno). That's important to me, because I rarely play through a game more than once, or even twice. Brilliant new controls, awesome story, and tons of extras for added replay value made it worth it to me.
Zelda could benefit from this. It doesn't have to be as drastically revolutionizing as RE4, but the controls could be tweaked and made better. Add some voice acting (I agree Link should remain silent though), ORCHESTRATED MUSIC, more interaction with NPCs, and some different story elements would help remove the small bits of tarnish on one of the industry's brightest shining series. - Zippo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21And then there's people like me, who haven't played a Zelda game since Link to the Past and are thrilled with everything about Twilight Princess.
- NetPhantom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17I'm always leery of a story that starts with a digg this button
- mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18This is spot on. Games flow from the hardware they run on and are played with. Nintendo has a pretty consistent cycle of games/systems. First they innovate, then they evolve, and then repeat. NES (innovation - multigame programmable home game system with a D-pad) -> SNES (evolution - better graphics/sound, larger games, more buttons on the controller). N64 (innovate - 3D, analog stick controller) -> GameCube (evolve - better graphics, bigger games, probably the best "standard" controller ever made). Now the Wii (innovate - new control system) will lead to all kinds of new type of games, and whatever they do next will probably be just a perfected version of the Wii.
- BuddyDoQ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15Honestly, I am about as hard core Zelda fan as you will ever find, but I found TP to be a bit of a let down in the fun-factor, not the best of show by a long hook shot.
With Wind Waker I was able to do something I haven't been able to do since the first Zelda (my favorite), and that is aimless exploration. I loved it. The graphics didn't upset me like so many others, I guess I saw it as a toss back to the 8bit days. The game play was classic Zelda, and the world map was freaking huge. One could spend hours sailing island to island searching for treasure and dungeons. TP lacked this in every way. With blocked paths, smaller zones, and progression on rails, I felt that the game play had regressed a generation. Even OoT felt "bigger" than the world of TP. Story telling and graphic presentation, TP is second to none, but that classic Zelda allure of getting lost in adventure was sorely missed. - Klarth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15If Zelda goes the way of Prince of Persia, I will not be happy.
I'm not looking for chugga-chugga-pseudo-metal soundtracks and screens awash with blood; I'm looking for the same tried-and-true formula we've seen in every title - with few minor changes each time, examples being the boat from Wind Waker, the wolf from TP and the music mechanic in the N64 titles.
Oh, and...
"On a controversial note, why does each Zelda have to include Zelda in the same fashion over and over? Heck, why include Zelda at all?"
Hi, I'm Majora's Mask/Link's Awakening and I'm a great game. - 000jr000, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15On of the things I really LIKE about Zelda over other RPG's is the lack of story and NPC interaction.
Save the princess? Got it... now let me work.
If I wanted to sit through 40 hours of cinematic and storyline I'd go buy FF. - ironrex, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13I'll sum it up also:
"I want Zelda to be an RPG"
I disagree with this article, because Zelda is a brilliant action adventure game. The game was never about the story, which has used the basic "save the princess" just like mario for years. You knew what the main story was going to be, but they throw you curveballs each time. I think the twist in twilight princess with the twilight world and being a wolf was absolutely brilliant. It was captivating, and it was great to see a darker side of the series.
Zelda games are about action, discovery, and puzzle solving. This is the core of the Zelda game, not story, not character development. Zelda is an ACTION ADVENTURE game, and I hope it stays that way. If you want to play an RPG, play an RPG. If you want an RPG with Zelda characters, tough cookies.
As for revolutionary change, it has done what many other games have done. Also like mario, it has simply expanded its world to include what the current technology allows it to include. Of course the makers envisioned Link moving throughout a 3 dimensional world, and once they were able to make that, they jumped on it. They're just trying to make it more like the world they picture, and they have. Where would you expect them to go from there? Link in space? - aschocobo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11@orientis:
quick note: in Ocarina of Time, Link switches between the ages of 10 and 17 throughout the game, and you have to switch back and fourth between the two. young Link completes only 3 of the 9 main dungeons. you do not play as young Link throughout the entire game. - zumpiez, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9He says he wants Zelda to either have a meaningful role in the story or to go away.
He did play Wind Waker, right? - TimDigg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Zelda is cool and all
but honestly I want some new Nintendo series...new characters new ideas
looking back at nintendo's history I'm suprised Starfox wasn't simply "Mario in Space"
NEW CHARACTERS NINTENDO PLEASE...WE'RE BEGGING YOU
Nintendo is an innovative hardware company but as far as game and game design go, I haven't seen it in awhile
Its just that we love the classics soo much we'll play them again and again and again - Xarou, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@ilyag
Just wait for Sadness to come out on the Wii. Sadness is going to be their first M game. And I agree with straxus, a lot of these games that are adult and mature are just dumb. They're trying to win you over with more and more gallons of blood. The games on the Wii are fun. A fun game to get would be Elebits. - sacherjj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8But multiplayer isn't the answer to everything. I don't have the time to sit down and play with a bunch of people online in multiplayer. That time is spent with other people actually in my home using the Wii. I hate that many games are going multiplayer to the detriment of the single player game play (mostly shorter total play duration for the title.) Multiplayer is not in itself a panacea.
- combustion8, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Thats about as "hard hitting" as a nerf softball.
- BigPapi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I like the Zelda series for what it is. Authentic, nostalgic, consistent and superior. The quality of the games is what makes them great. The last thing I want to see is some overproduced, grandiose 150 hour RPG with a thousand CGI cut scenes where I spend 80% of my time talking to people and waiting for something to load.
TP wasn't revolutionary, but I'm not even a third of the way through and there have been many parts along the way that have reminded me why I never skipped a major release in the franchise. - x94blair3, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I don't really have an opinion either way on the Zelda series, but the article isn't very well written. It took 2 pages of writing to:
mention 3 games
call them revolutionary
rationalize why they are
mention there's 3 of them
then justify that they're revolutionary again..except you could argue the second one probably isn't
and that he loves zelda
Be concise, informative, have an opinion, and for the love of God, don't preempt those that disagree with you by saying they probably could or should disagree with you.
Nick - freezervv, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I stopped reading when he said Final Fantasy's FMVs were an example of how Zelda needs to "mature".
- bpapa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8The guy just bitches about story and has the GALL to compare Zelda to Eternal Darkness, saying it should be more like that. What a joke. ED had an absolutely fantastic story, but the gameplay was a boring pile of *****. Zelda should never in it's right mind aspire to be at all like Eternal Darkness.
I play Zelda because it's a blast to explore and solve the puzzles of the dungeons. - Konrad9, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I don't know what it is about TP, but I can't get into it as much as I did for OoT.
When I played OoT I was pumped, I wanted to save Hyrule, I was so incredibly amazed at the story and every aspect.
In TP... I don't know. I was so excited to be playing it again, even moreso on the Wii.
There's just something about TP that turns me off.
Hell, I even enjoyed playing WW, except for when I couldn't figure out where to go. Sailing on the ocean is awesome... unless you're lost. - Akintunde, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@MouseCircus
"Oh, and for the record, I wasn't bashing Twilight Princess. I bought the GameCube version because I didn't want to play as a right-handed Link, and I loved the game. My only complaint is that it felt a tad bit too short."
...I know it's something they shoulda kept with, but does the hand he holds his sword in matter THAT much? - orientis, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I'd play that. A four-year-old with an assault rifle is always fun.
- hipnerd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Some of hte comparisons he made -- specifically to Oblivion and Final Fantasy -- are running on current hardware. There is not technical limitation that would prevent a more free-roaming and interactive world like Oblivion from being implemented. And a more intricate plot like those found in Final Fantasy would be great.
Hardware has advanced 10 years since OoT., but the basic gameplay mechanic is the same. I agree with the article. It's not that TP is bad. I love it. But I can see that it is getting old around the edges. Nintendo needs to update the entire game concept. This doesn't mean it needs to get more "adult," just more interactive, expansive and innovative. - whiledo, on 03/25/2009, -1/+8It's funny, I'm a big fan of Zelda. I cut my teeth on LoZ on my brand new NES and have played them ever since. But when they announced that Link would be right-handed because of the wiimote issue, I was actually caught unaware. "Oh, I guess he has always been left-handed, hasn't he?" Seriously. It's just not something I ever paid attention to.
- SeriouslyButNo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8No it doesn't. It opens up later on.
Seriously though, all other 3D Zeldas have had the same problem.. :/ - blofeld9999, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10So basically the next Zelda should be a copy of Oblivion? Not sure I agree.
If the best Nintendo can do is just copy other franchises, there would be no point for their games to exist. Fortunately, they are capable of much more than that. - Orlex, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7yeah once you clear the twilight world you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want.
- Elranzer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Can't say I agree with the article at all. If the author wants Zelda to become like Elder Scrolls Oblivion, then he's off his rocker. Zelda games are meant to be fun, light-hearted and featuring quirky Japanese things. Oblivion is serious, dull and trying-to-be too realistic (everything that isn't Zelda). The author seems like he wishes Zelda was a PS3 game with the Oblivion engine.
Color me crazy but I thought The Wind Waker to be superior to Twilight Princess, and is suppossed to be the way the Zelda series should head. Not that I think Link should always be a kid, but perhaps the kid/adult mode of Ocarina or adult the way he was in ALTTP. Shigeru Miyamoto actually said that child Link was wehat he envisioned as the "true" Link, anyway.
In a way I think TP was made to calm down the furious fanboys who were pissed over Wind Waker. However, Wind Waker featured more of what makes Zelda special: exploration. If the game took place on land instead of the sea, it would have been the greatest game of all time. TP on the other hand just has nine dungeons and virtually no exploration other than finding the Heart Pieces and Poes.
Games like Oblivion are dull, bland, too non-linear and too short (the main plot). Final Fantasy almost went this route, though it seems to be going this way with the XIII series. If Zelda ever becomes like Oblivion (which it won't), then the series will be over. - Orlex, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7That's the vibe I got from the article, I loved how big Oblivion was and how many people you could talk to, but I didn't talk to anyone, and I mostly fast-traveled through the map because it took AGES to do anything otherwise.
Ages of nothing but walking, I might add. - NipGrip, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9CDi tried to revolutionize Zelda, remember that train wreck of a game? Oblivion is an RPG.. Zelda is an adventure game. Zelda will never go RPG and for many reasons, it appeals to a very wide fanbase and has continued to sell like hotcakes given it's current formula.
- ooknabah, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Since when was linear game design a bad thing? Why does every game have to be open? Seriously- If I wanted to play a game with a huge open world, I would just go and play Oblivion. If I wanted to play a game with a great structure and a progressively expanding world, I'd play Zelda or Metroid. Arguments like this annoy me to no end- Zelda isn't an RPG! It isn't an MMO! It isn't a hundred other things, and if you try to make it any of those things is it really Zelda anymore?
I for one thought TP was a great new installment in the series and am perfectly happy with it. If you never liked Zelda and couldn't get into it, you know what? Then Zelda isn't the kind of game you enjoy. Too bad, but there are millions of other gamers who feel otherwise and you're just going to miss out.
I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement and innovation in Zelda games: Having better interaction with the NPCs, voice work, full orchestral music, all those things would be a great boon to the game, along with countless innovations I could never think of. But after a certain point shouldn't Zelda games have some trappings of the formula that has made it so successful? - dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I may be alone in this, but I thought Wind Waker was an amazing departure in not only the art department, but also the story department, and it just did not get its due. The story was also far more intriguing and complex, and it was the first Zelda game where I felt like, subtly, all of the Zelda adventures were coming to a head, as one cohesive unit.
What I'd like to see is more of this subtle connecting of stories. I think they're going the right way with that. I also agree with the author that the characters should be more developed and personable, and I wholly agree with the orchestrated music. I understand that for the sort of "jump-in-jump-out" battle mechanic, pre-recorded, orchestrated music may not be ideal, but I'm sure the geniuses behind these games could work something out.
I think what the author was really getting at is that this series, as good as it is, hasn't even been fully realized yet. And I'm hard-pressed to disagree with that sentiment. - dungbeetle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I would cry if they turned Zelda into Oblivion. I have Oblivion and played almost 120 hours of it. But when I stood back and actually looked, it was only a so-so game. The story was flat and there was no depth to any of the story. It looked pretty but that's pretty much it. If anything, it should borrow from Morrowind. That was a deep Elder Scrolls game with lots of twists and a very good story (ignore the combat system and aged graphics for a moment). I like Zelda because even though the story may have the same overarching plot, they retell it in a very successful and, in all the ones I've played, pretty deep way.
- daveisfera, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6That was a lot of words to basically say, "I want Zelda to be Oblivion with Link as the main character."
- Muncher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I agree that Zelda is very primitive in several ways, and needs to get up to speed, but the author of this article seems to want it to turn into Elder Scrolls. And as someone who just replayed Ocarina of Time two days ago, I can say that despite being much more primitive, that game is better than Oblivion.
- whiledo, on 03/25/2009, -0/+5I do agree that "save the princess" is getting a bit old, even when the games are fun. It's compounded by it being used as the main theme of Mario. The conflict here is that some people think games should be known for having really good storylines, while others (Miyamoto included) believe storyline rate near the bottom of game elements in importance. To these people, it's like having to come up with a good storyline for Tetris. To them, the whole point is the game mechanic and the fun of exploring the worlds.
I'm a bit of both. For the most part, I can overlook the repetition in Zelda/Mario as long as the gameplay is very good. Mario Sunshine is an example of a game that I would still have been dissatisfied no matter how good the storyline was. But if the gameplay is good, I enjoy a good storyline even more. I liked how they handled the Wind Waker story. It was a slightly fresh spin on the same old stuff. There's still room for them to do things like this. For example, what if instead of "saving the princess", you had to find the princess, who had ran away and was living life as a regular citizen. Or what if they had a game where your enemy was actually Zelda? I don't just mean "possessed Zelda" like in TP. Or how about Zelda as an infant?
Yeah, these aren't revolutionary ideas, but they would be nice twists so it wasn't identical to the previous incarnations of the story. But like I said, it's probably unlikely considering Miyamoto's feelings on plot. - uberdesigner, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"hard-hitting" and "video game" should not be used in conjunction
- KnockoutNerd, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9I understand where he is coming from but I do not agree.
Nintendo will revolutionize Zelda when there is revolutionary technology, the first Zelda was revolutionary because it was the first free roaming game go any where do what you can and you can save. OoT because it was the first great ( still the best ) 3d adventure game. This generation of games are a lot " prettier " then 64 but not a leap in technology from snes to n64 its still 3d just mapped better and capable of holding more. Oot was way ahead of its time up until companies couldn't match that game now companies are figuring out new ways of making adventure RPG's and im positive Nintendo will look to Oblivion for there Zelda game that they are working on now that will not be a Gamecube port and will fully take advantage of the Wii's capabilities but don't say Zelda needs a leap like from the first to Oot thats 8 bit to 3d 3d is still around so don't start saying how Zelda needs to change when the same technology is still here - debian_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I could barely make it through the entire article before keeling over in laughter at the sheer ignorance shown in some points of his argument.
He complains, asking for 'formula changes' but then fails to even reconize Zelda 2, Minish Cap, the Oracle titles, four swords or aspects of the conventional titles up till now.
Repeat after me. Zelda is not an RPG. It was never meant to be an RPG. It will only subtract from the fun of Zelda should it be an RPG.
The bit about the story telling methods in FF is a farce. Having to sit through 2 tons of pre-rendered cut scenes and then being returned into a different looking world totally breaks the 4th wall, is a crap story telling method, and is 3 steps backward compared to the more in-game approach which Zelda is known for.
Why does it need Zelda? Facilitates 2nd party good guy role. Her position in the formula has changed a bit, though the author won't recognize it. TP hardly related to any rescue of Zelda at all. The games themselves aren't about rescuing a princess. Its about the adventure. The path to the end.
Manjoras mask had wonderful character development and integration. In fact it would have been even better if TP was more of a MM theme then OOT.
As a personal opinion and side note, Oblivious is a piece of *****.
Finally he goes back on 90% of the article by saying that Zelda is wonderful and gets high praise because it evolves and should continue to do so to keep fresh. I agree. Wait, why the hell did I just read 3 pages of ***** to arrive back at the start? - plsailboy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I feel that that article had some really good points, but at the end of it, the author compared the series to Oblivion, which, not only is ironic, is merely pathetic. The author claims that the success of the zelda series has been based on its innovation, so what is his solution?, to have Zeldy copy another game model...
wow, I mean the article was great but the end was just *****. - shit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@SeriouslyButNo:
The quote was "This will be, without a doubt, the last Zelda game as you know it in its present form".
Here is the article in question: http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=60754 - Orlex, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8yeah, you mentioned that
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