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- newJxE, on 10/10/2007, -4/+30From Article:
"At the end of the day, when we finish an RPG, we want to feel like we’ve taken a journey—not merely watched one."
I have to disagree with this a little. I always loved RPG's because I felt like I was interacting with a book, when an RPG has too much player customization or too many choices I feel like I'm missing out on a great story because I'm never able to experience everything the game has to offer. I never want to be him, I want to watch him grow, learn and change. I wanted a twisted story that stays on my mind. Being too open ended takes away from the literature type experience that I love in RPG's. - maninthespoon, on 10/10/2007, -5/+28“nobody wants to play 60-hour RPGs anymore.”
Then why are MMOs so popular? - Ajjah, on 10/10/2007, -2/+18How about an RPG based on SKILL? Not just a "Lets see who can spend the most time grinding" fest?
- beanfeast, on 10/10/2007, -0/+11Better RPG? Simple. Earthbound for current consoles. Honestly, I bought the Nintendo 64 just so I could play Earthbound 64, which never came out. With the fanbase of this series, it'd seem a no-brainer.
Sorry, end rant. - n00854180t, on 10/10/2007, -0/+11Because they have carefully crafted mechanics involving random reward systems that have been shown to be highly effective in causing people to continue to play for further rewards. This is the same phenomena present in slot machines.
Further, MMOs in general aren't really "RPGs" at all. At least, the Everquest clone based ones definitely aren't. - tehpwnrate, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10Meh, you were kind of right the first time. It's been out in Japan for about a year.
- djSyndrome, on 10/10/2007, -2/+12Erp, 2007.
- timpkmn89, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9What exactly is unpronounceable about it?
- Sangermaine, on 10/10/2007, -2/+10I don't know how old you are, but MMOs and old-style epic RPGs ala Xenogears or the brilliant Vagrant Story are really very different experiences. I can't speak for others, but for me I put in the huge amount of time in those games to watch the story play out, the characters grow, etc. There was a tremendous feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction at the end when everything finally came together. MMOs, on the other hand, seem to me to be more about a sort of surrogate social experience and, to be frank, killing time. There is really no goal in them. You gain XP and items to better allow you to gain XP and items in a never-ending, pointless spiral, which I absolutely hate. It's like they took all the good elements out of old-style RPGs and magnified the most boring parts. These types of games are perfect from the business side, because they guaruntee a loyal, recurring user base. To me, this represents an abandonment on some level of creativity.
Similarly, if I may generalize to the points of the article, the focus on "customization" is, in some ways to me, a loss of creativity. It's the developers not bothering to take the time to craft an interesting, entertaining experience, but rather shifting the burden to the player to create it for themselves. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's all bad and all games should be simple, static, linear things. I loved RPGs that tried out new, innovative systems or story techniques that opened up choices and freedoms you didn't get from the old stuff. But it's a really fine balance. Too much freedom and you end up with a meaningless mess, too much control and you get a boring movie to "play". The key to a good RPG is to find the middle ground, with a strong story that still allows for exploration and innovative gameplay, which is an evolving process that incorporates new ideas in harmony with the old.
This is what I think the article meant by saying that people don't play 60 hour RPGs anymore. It's because many mainstream games have been frozen in style since the mid-late 90s, and are no longer striving for that balance. They just go with what used to work, and gamers like me who have played tons of those games get tired of it. But gamers like me are also unhappy with the alternative, the MMO/GTA-style "free roaming" games. I'm not sure if Persona 3 will "save us all", but it's at least trying new things, so we'll see if it finds that balance necessary for greatness. Certainly the XP and leveling systems, even the concept of leveling itself, are incredibly archaic ideas that need an overhaul. There are many, many alternates, as even a cursory glance at the world of pen-and-paper RPGs would show you. Anyway, just my 2 cents on this issue. - caddyalan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7I was all but raised on traditional console RPGs, and I eventually became a total "fantard" for Dragon Quest games. Despite that, I admit that I like some offbeat games. Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga was different and fascinating... Chrono Cross had a few promising, innovative ideas... Thousand Arms was very flawed but unusual and amusing... and I even liked Rhapsody for PS1.
Even though I don't like dark RPGs, I might give Persona 3 a chance, especially if it has good character customization, or if it uses life simulation ideas without being very demanding. - Gizza, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6This is exactly why I didn't really like Oblivion. Was great for the first few weeks. Then just started to realise they I didn't know what the hell I was suppose to doing. The openness was great, but the story telling really suffered from it.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -6/+11Dugg for the shear fact that a shin megami tensei game made it onto the front page.
- djSyndrome, on 10/10/2007, -7/+12Dugg for profiling what may be the best RPG of 2006.
- EntropyGun, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Oh.. I thought this was going to be about how to build a better Rocket Propelled Grenade. Color me disappointed.
- cha0sth30ry, on 10/10/2007, -3/+7I think a lot of the "new" stuff that's being praised in Persona 3 was borrowed from American RPGs like Knights of the Old Republic, the classic Baldur's Gate series (namely Shadows of Amn), and the Fallout series....
The RPG genre was pretty stale until they came along - Vanor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4I have Persona 2 and my friend has the first one. The coolest thing I liked about Persona 2 is the concept that rumors can become reality. To illustrate, the characters are sitting in a bar early on in the game discussing the possibility that rumors can become reality for some reason. Most of them don't buy it, but one of them (an expert computer hacker), tests out the theory by making a phonecall to spread a rumor that the bartender in the very bar they are sitting in sells weapons. Sure enough, once the rumor is spread, and they inquire to the bartender, he pulls out a case of guns to select and purchase (which is how you get weapons in the game). A similar method is employed to get a clothes store to sell protective armor. But that's something I found interesting and engaging about that game is the idea that once a rumor spreads, it becomes "the truth", regardless of whether it is in fact true or not. Once an idea spreads around in people's minds, it becomes reality, becomes fact, without any actual evidence or proof to point to otherwise. Living in a town where people pretty much do nothing but gossip 24/7, it's something I can connect with deeply. I mean, games that are entertaining are great, but I like games that provoke your thoughts, and actually make you think about it after you've turned off the game, it's a lot like the Twilight Zone, really. Besides, I never was that big on fantasy stuff, and I like the concept of splicing technology with the occult quite a bit, and I especially like games (and movies and books and media in general) that doesn't insult the player's maturity. And it definitely looks like Persona 3 will live up to my expectations.
- esbern1, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5dugg down for putting the words perfect and FF8 within 30 characters of each other. Its a standard law of the internet to not do that.
- Tippis, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Sure, but *which* skill are we talking about here? There are quite a few to choose from.
- StingerMS, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Is it just me, or did they cancel a LOT of N64 games?
- Vanor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Shin Megami Tensei has a pretty long and rich history behind it, check it out (if you haven't already).
http://hg101.classicgaming.gamespy.com/megaten/megaten.htm - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Thats what all the Persona games were and hopefully this one will be even better/harder.
- NYC10004, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3What do you have against anime's style? There are plenty of non-anime rpgs out there to choose from if you dont like that style.
- Tippis, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3The thing about "missing out" some of the content, I've come to think think, is what *defines* a good RPG. It doesn't have to be much, but one of the things that *really* give you the feeling of ROLE playing is to add in defining moments; instances where your choice define your character, and sets you down one unique path because of that choice. The problem is that this so rarely can be done well in computer gaming, because it is generally (a) difficult to come up with good selection of possible choices and (b) even more difficult (or at least time/space consuming) to create content for all those decision branches.
The best example I can think of, off hand, which is actually a rather *poor* example, is Deus Ex: while the story is exactly the same no matter what, there are a number of choices to be made along the path. If you pussyfoot around, you'll be berated by your mech coworkers, but you'll be rewarded by your more pacifist friends; if you stick to your guns and help people out, they'll come back to help you in the future. The choices you do actually make a difference down the line. The problem in Deus Ex is that this is only really evident in the very early stages of the game (I'd say up until the escape from UNATCO) -- later on, it's all the same because there are little or no choices to be had.
Now imagine if these choices were to change the *storyline* rather than how easy it is to get password X and acquire weapon Y... - Doomsan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4don't you know anything about rpgs?? mmorpgs and tipical console rpgs are a totally different experience...what a stupid comparison.
- mokkos, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Before those games, there was the Ultima series. Those game had free roaming game play, awesome story line, decisions that effected the outcome, and not much grinding (level capped at 8). It's not that it was stale before those games came along, it's just that you didn't start playing RPGs until those games came along. If anything, RPGs, especially the western ones, have reached a peak around Ultima underworld and Ultima 7.
- staticneuron, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2You guys are still playing a role playing game. You are playing a role. The only difference is that in western type RPG's you are free to define that role and in the japanese more linear ones you are not able to define your role. Just because you cannot turn cloud into a gun weilding maniac or a stealthy theif, doesn't change the fact that you are playing a role.
- Vanor, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Seriously, I usually don't care about other game preferences, but I have a personal vendetta against that game. Final Fantasy VIII is just....god....merely thinking about it makes me want to stab my eyes out with lit cigars. I mean, I played through it the first time, and was like "cool."
Then I went through it a second time....and realized how much I totally hated everything about it. The game is just horrible. Horribly put together, horribly executed, you don't give a damn about the characters, they don't change, they don't evolve, the dialogue is HORRIBLE. So horrible, that it makes the original dialogue in Resident Evil look like Shakespeare in comparison. I'm serious about this. Coming from a company as respectable as Square, from a series as solid as Final Fantasy, there is no freaking excuse for the dialogue to be so god-awful. It sounds like the characters are in daycare in some instances, in one instance especially when Zell and Seifer are verbally going at each other like they're frickin' five-year-olds. Seriously.
The battle system was flawed, but not as flawed as the story in my opinion. Just wish that your guardian forces weren't stronger than your characters or your spells. After you got Eden you pretty much didn't need to use anything else, or anyone else. Having to draw spells out of enemies was cool and all, but junctioning them made it hard to justify using them as it would make your stats weaker, nevermind the fact that magic in the game was pretty useless to start with. I take that back, all magic in the game was useless except for Meltdown, and maybe Double and Triple, but there items that did the same thing.
But seriously, the most disappointing thing is just the character development. There is none. Everyone starts out the same, and when the game ends, they pretty much haven't changed one freaking iota. I could not see any major transition in the characters at all, and especially not between Rinoa and Squall, in terms of being in love, which just kinda happens without any sort of buildup or pretense. There were moments when I thought there would be some actual *gasp* character development, like Quistis asking Squall if he wanted to get a bite to eat with her and talk about stuff, but then they got interrupted by the bad guys. Ugh, just a letdown.
I'm sorry I did this, but it's pretty much ingrained into my very genetic code to bitch about this game after playing it. I'd rather watch Dora the Explorer for 100 hours than play FFVIII for one hour....AND I HATE CABLE TELEVISION! - smackywentz, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Agreed. I've always felt a good RPG had a literate feel to it. If you've ever played Knights of the Old Republic, then you might agree with this, but that is quite possibly the best RPG I've ever played. It keeps you interested, has a great story line, and involves the Fable system of choices for becoming light or dark. It also had more customization than Fable. Much more customization though, and I fear I would have lost interest.
What would be great is combining sports games like Madden with RPGs. Like where you start in high school football, or maybe peewee, and move up. - thanakar, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I love long RPG's. I'm tired of paying 50 to 60 bucks for an RPG that is over in 20 hours. 60 hours is nothing!
- Vanor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Hah, that's what I thought it stood for back in the day, "Mario RPG?....Rocket Propelled Grenade?"
- DeusNova, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Can't wait till I get my game. =) I pre-ordered it. I've been excited about this game for a year. o_o
- Falkon, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Yes but you see, Oblivion (and anything from Bioware/Bethesda, for that matter!) suffers from being BORING AS HECK and not compelling at all.
Hopefully Persona 3 won't. (I have faith after the last ones...but...you know how it is.) - dadioflex, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2"Once an idea spreads around in people's minds, it becomes reality, becomes fact, without any actual evidence or proof to point to otherwise."
Welcome to Bush's Amerika. - mokkos, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3"SKILL", or the lack thereof, is the reason I play RPGs. In RPGs, you put in your time and effort and you'll eventually succeed regardless of how fast you are on your feet. Twitch games that require reflexes (DMC, Ninja Gaiden, etc) are something that are impossible for me to play due to the lack of my natural dexterity. On the flip side of things, some people just can't stand grinding because of because they are naturally impatient. To each his own I guess.
- madzombiekilla, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I'm with you on that. Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, was an awesome game. I really wished we got to play Innocent Sin as well.
- CrimsonBlur, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4This article applies only to people that play JRPG's exclusively. Anyone that has played any Western RPG's over the last ten years or so has experienced everything he says is lacking in RPG's today, it's like he's never played a single one of them. The most recent and most complete example I can think of is Oblivion. The dating sim thing is... not really very appealing.
- apoc06, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1IMHO, a RPG places you into a "role" that you assume, or create and your journey or adventure should define your character and/or statistics or strength. if you choose not to advance your characters abilities or "levels", that should have a detriment on your gameplay as you progress.
that said, various games have been said to borrow role-playing elements. usually the other game remains within its original genre while adapting the RPG nature of "leveling up" the protagonist or his weapons/ abilities. - superfly007, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1If you don't understand the differences between console RPGs and MMORPGs please just stay out of the conversation and let the grownups talk.
- Falkon, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I much prefer the silent protagonist in games where it fits. (Suikoden series, for example.) It's much, much easier for me to get into the story if I feel like I'm the protagonist, instead of some outside controlling viewer. To each his own, though.
- dadioflex, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1"I always loved RPG's because I felt like I was interacting with a book, when an RPG has too much player customization or too many choices I feel like I'm missing out on a great story because I'm never able to experience everything the game has to offer."
Then shouldn't you just be reading a book? You seem to want to be more audience than actor. And, in general, 3 or 4 run-throughs will let you experience everything most games have to offer. - Ravatar, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Umm lol, usually people save virtual reality for things too dangerous or geographically difficult to achieve (gunfighting, mountain climbing). I'm not so sure "babes" qualify under those criteria.
- Rodman930, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Booo!
- Falkon, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1FF8 had one shining part to it. The GF system. The rest of it was poop in game form.
- n00854180t, on 10/10/2007, -3/+4Indeed, it seems the author fails to understand the acronym at all. He tries to define it by listing common game mechanics from Japanese adventure games (pseudo-RPGs, I suppose), almost hits it when listing the "hero's journey", but manages to completely ignore the obvious definition. Irrespective a hero's journey (a specific type of story...), poorly designed gameplay mechanics (random battles for one), spikey hair, bad dialog, et cetera, RPGs are about one thing: playing the role of a character. Since most "JRPGs" fail this completely, instead requiring the player to play out a linear story line(arguable "of" a character, but the key point is that the player is not playing what he/she thinks that character would do, but either a limited subset of actions, or one single path), by definition they fail to meet the criteria to be deemed a role-playing game.
- ortucis, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Gothic 3 (way better than Oblivion crap).
Ironically, made on the same engine but looks and performs way better and more realistic (according to the world it's based on). It's the best thing I have played since Baldurs Gate 2 + Expansion (NwN2 was crap). - apoc06, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1enemies that level with you is an okay idea, but not /everything/ should be level 50 just because you are. FF8 went a bit overboard.
the junction system kinda sucked because in a way it actually penalized you for using your magic. that and no one likes wasting a turn trying to draw from some random enemy all the time. i say combine the materia system of 7 with 9 and 6. hell i prefer dealing with disgaea-like timesinking, but i hated having to draw 3 fira from an enemy at a time in FF8 to do anything.
oh, and yeah the FF8 story REALLY sucked. i say keep the tone of FFTactics and FFXII, mix in some balder's gate type of interactivity and you /might/ be on the right road.
oh, and what happened to actual game secrets? i mean secrets that you were able to figure out without a dayum tip book. more "oh its a hidden room over here" or "wow if i use the aegis armor as an item it casts a spell", and less "if you stand in exactly this one unmarked spot and dodge lightning 200 times you have a 5% chance of winning the best weapon in the game" or "buy the weakest weapon in the game for a ludicrous amount of money, walk to some random unmarked spot [that no one gave you any clues about] and wait four hours to get hit by lightning to upgrade the weapon to the strongest weapon in the game."
ugh... excuse my rant. years later, FF8 still makes me see red. - djSyndrome, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Yeah, and I believe it was the runner-up for Famitsu's 2006 RPG of the year (behind FF XII, of course).
- Vanor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I've actually been looking forward to it, and after reading this I'm sure I"ll enjoy it a lot more than a lot of games I've played this year. Besides, any game that requires you to shoot yourself in the head to use your abilities is automatically awesome.
- johnroth, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I don't see why people hate that. In Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne the main character was silent and I felt myself getting more into the game. I felt more that he was me and not just some character I had to like.
- n4tune8, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Oblivion is pretty high up. The problem seems to be that good developers (except Blizzard) are not making PC games anymore, they are concentrating on consoles.
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