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- inactive, on 01/02/2009, -14/+103That's not true at all. IBM makes chips for many purposes.... And it was no secret IBM would retain rights to resell/redraft the Cell architecture.
XBOX360(tri-PowerPC based aka Xenon):
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360 ...
CELL:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-2. ...
Completely different beasts. - ghaib, on 01/02/2009, -4/+62IBM only used the "work experience" they knew from working on the Cell, not the chip or the architecture itself - the two chips are completely different.
This happens all the time. What they learned from making the Cell, the Power PC core, the Xbox chip... all of that experience will go towards creating whatever processors they create in the future, may that be for Sony, MS, Nintendo or whoever else. - inactive, on 01/02/2009, -8/+59So did Jobs, from Xerox. Get over it.
- inactive, on 01/02/2009, -6/+51If you'd bother to RTFAs....
The XBOX 360 has 3 physical PPEs(Power Processor Element), which are dual-threaded. It's basically still an 'average'/PC computer.
The Cell has a single PPE, and 8 SPEs(Synergistic Processing Element, PS3 has 7, 1 being reserved for the PS3 OS, leaving 6 for games). It furthermore features EIB(Element Interconnect Bus). It's not well suited for GP(general purpose) computing like Intel/AMD or even the Xenon.
Xenon does not have SPEs or EIB(core architectual components of Cell).
The PPE is the only similar architecture. And IBM made that, not Sony. It's not Sony's. It's IBM's, and they retained the rights to reuse it however they want. What makes the Cell processor special would be the SPEs. The SPEs make for a tremendously efficient streaming/'signal processing' processor. In fact there are plans to use an updated design [in televisions] to display 40 HD channels at once(all done by a single Cell processor) so you can visually choose your channel based on a mosiac of video thumbnails. - garryw, on 01/02/2009, -3/+45IBM should not be able to reference it's own R&D? Restart from scratch every time?
- OrangeCrush, on 01/02/2009, -0/+39The real winner of this round of the console wars is definitely IBM.
- ProfessorSYM, on 01/02/2009, -6/+42Buried as Inaccurate as the original chip designs are IBM's, not Sony's.
- r81984, on 01/02/2009, -27/+51This is pathetic. GamingForever is a lying fanboy and should be banned from digg.
The cell processor has nothing to do with Sony it is IBM and they can sell their technology to whoever they want.
At least microsoft will know how to use it correctly and not cripple its abilities. - RevChris2, on 01/02/2009, -5/+27someone really wants to sell copies of this book , in one form or another articles pimping this book have been all over the game section of digg for 2 days.
Smart move knowing it would draw out all the fanboys - DrewPeacock, on 01/02/2009, -2/+23Does this negatively affect my game play? Then I don't give a *****.
- 1807, on 01/02/2009, -2/+22for some reason, I read completely different breasts.
- inactive, on 01/02/2009, -2/+22And Wii.
IBM makes a lot of processors. - rrife, on 01/02/2009, -2/+22Editing Wikipedia now....
- sndream, on 01/02/2009, -2/+21This is completely BS, first the author didn't even mentioned the Wii also used CPU from IBM, all 3 machine used the RICS Power Architecture.
Wii's chip is a single core PowerPC, which is rumored to be a enchaned PPC750 CPU (also used by Apple G3). Xbox used a triple-core PowerPC CPU. The special thing about the Cell processor used by PS3 is that their 7 SPE, which unfortunately most programmer doesn't use because it's hard as hell to program.
Also, both Xbox 360and Wii used GPU from ATI. I hope the author won't write a book about it. - inactive, on 01/02/2009, -2/+21My friend worked for IBM in Austin during the period it was being developed and worked on the Cell project.
He was telling me the whole time, YEARS ahead, that they were developing the processor for the new Xbox.. so... how was it stolen?
How can IBM make all this stuff and be expected not to use knowledge they have to make a better product? I don't get it. - Rivetgeek, on 01/02/2009, -3/+22Some of us ARE electrical engineers, kiddo. Just because you still live with mommy and work at quickie mart doesn't mean the rest of us do.
- rrife, on 01/02/2009, -2/+20Are both processors used in the PS3 and 360 made by IBM?
- inactive, on 01/02/2009, -1/+19Or here's an idea: ask IBM. I bet they have a clue, unlike you.
http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/research_proje ...
http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/research_proje ... - Chooxo, on 01/02/2009, -5/+22X ☐ O
- spectecjr, on 01/02/2009, -0/+14So did Gates. They both licensed from Xerox.
- LawScholar, on 06/25/2009, -6/+20Who gives two craps, honestly?
Let's assume that this article (and book for that matter) is more than fanboyism grasping at straws. Let's assume it's true that Microsoft's chip was inspired by Sony's, that lessons from the Cell were used, etc.
What would change? The fact of the matter is that the Playstation 3 is an exceptionally capable piece of hardware that has the misfortune of having fewer good games than Sarah Palin has kids with normal names; The Xbox 360 is a slightly less capable piece of hardware with an exceptional stable of games; and the Wii is infuriating hardcore gamers everywhere by being radically more popular than either.
To return to my original point, who cares? Unless there was a clear patent breach or something along those lines, nothing will EVER come from this.
Meanwhile, people will keep bitching about VIDEO GAMES and tens of millions of soccer moms will continue to play Wii Tennis. - deadmoo, on 01/02/2009, -2/+15Yes. And the Wii is PowerPC as well.
- inactive, on 01/02/2009, -3/+16Finders keepers, Xerox were idiots who didn't take advantage of what they had.
- sfasniperfox, on 01/02/2009, -2/+14ffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
- bigbangbuddha, on 01/03/2009, -0/+12 I program on both of these on a daily basis, they are very different. But more due to the memory and bus architecture, not so much the chip. The PS3 SPUs can run the same kind of code the PPU can (within limits) but the memory limitations make it difficult to program for. Also, since the memory is not unified, the code for the SPUs must be compiled separately and uploaded along with any data for processing, think of it like lots of tiny dlls. Technically this can produce a much more efficient data pipeline if done correctly. But you need your problems all figured out and set in stone before beginning to code because changes later on can throw your memory and flow way off, its tricky. This is just not how things are built in the game industry though. The only saving grace is that older more well understood systems can be fitted to the SPU nicely, so we do see things like collision, culling, sorting, and decompression pipes, fit into the architecture, but this is not really taking full advantage of it. If your experimenting or building a new game this is a difficult scheme to work with to say the least. For a creative industry this can be very problematic. Sony kind of missed the mark there.
Microsoft opted for a unified memory model, much easier to code for as you do not need to bundle and DMA the code and data to across a bus. But it also leads to very sloppy and dangerous practices. Its easy to create race conditions and cross thread talking, this can make games much slower than they would be if coded like they would be on the PS3. Theres nothing preventing 360 engineers from coding properly, like a data pipe, but I often see things go to the easiest route rather than the correct one.
Personally , I like the 360 for quick prototyping, its really designed well for that, from the hardware to the dev environment. MS understood this, thats why they did it. They wanted lots of games fast, and thats what they got. But in the end if you don't re architect your most important systems to be a data model ( Sony Style) you wont be able to get nearly the performance you should.
When Sony said the PS3 was faster they were right, but only if you write code specifically the way their architecture wants you too, great idea on paper. But not in the frantic and often haphazard world of game development. - mikembley, on 01/02/2009, -2/+13I hope they add "throwing shoes" to CoD 6, That would be awesome.
- deadmoo, on 01/02/2009, -2/+13You are a huge retard. Maybe an analogy will help you grasp this concept. If I see the specs for a car and it says 300hp. And I say to the engine manufacturer from that car that I want an engine with 300hp in my new car, but build it on the cheap, did I steal any tech? NO!
- FutureGuy, on 01/02/2009, -1/+11This is the title of the original Wall Street Journal article.
"Playing the Fool
How Sony inadvertently helped a competitor and lost position in the videogame market."
The "Fool" they refer to is Sony, I am guessing GamingForever didn't want you to know that.
Original article
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123069467545545011 ... - samkityoung, on 01/02/2009, -1/+10IBM is an incredible company.
- Azathothh, on 01/02/2009, -3/+12nahhhh throwing a shoe at Bush is funnier
- FutureGuy, on 01/02/2009, -0/+9Are you blind, read some of the comments above and educate yourself. Its IBMs technology not Sony's.
- inactive, on 01/02/2009, -0/+9But you see.... IBM already had the PPE. It already existed(in XBOX's case modified triple-core, dual-threaded, G5s).
For Cell a PPE was tweaked and SPEs added(PPE controls the SPEs and a few instructions were added for this, IBM customizes chips all the time). SPEs(SIMD)/EIB are what make CELL, CELL! Not the PPE. XBOX = 3 PPEs. Cell = 1 PPE and 8 SPEs(1 disabled), a EIB to interconnect all of those processors. The XBOX's Xenon does not feature any SPEs nor EIB.
Tweaking a PPE tweaked for SPEs and EIB would not make any god-damned sense. XBOX wouldn't/couldn't use Cell technology. They aren't compatible. All they really share is a focus on highly-parallel SIMD, which is part of what IBM tweaked in the PPEs for Xenon. Cell gets most of its SIMD-power though the SPEs. XBOX does this on three PPEs(single die). - purzzzell, on 01/02/2009, -1/+9Digg this if you read that as "Each 360 CPU has like 3 Master Chiefs working hard." :(
- inactive, on 01/02/2009, -3/+11Obviously neither did Sony in this case.
- inactive, on 01/02/2009, -1/+9Netburst was all about sacrificing IPC for raw GHz. Leading upto, as I recall, a 31 stage pipeline(Prescott, and even more GHz). Up from the Northwood and earlier editions 20 stages(apparently a Xenon is 23+ VMX, and Cell is well above that). This is why Athlon XP, with its short 10/15 stage pipeline and higher IPC did the whole PR(performance rating) system. PowerPC processors have also typically had very short pipe-lines(~550 Mhz G4 is ~1.5 Ghz P4).
With the Xenon you have 6 virtual cores, 3.2 Ghz per core. While not best suited for GP(in-order execution), it'd be much better than a Cell, which would require custom-code to run as anywhere near efficiently. - inactive, on 01/02/2009, -4/+12Until game developers actually go out of their way to create specialized PS3/Cell/SPEs code.... XBOX 360 wins. Even after these measures to create an equal or surpass... it's a very small difference.
- phosphor112, on 01/02/2009, -0/+7No, I'm not refering to the BluRay Diodes that weren't working. I'm talking about the Cell, the guys that MS worked with were the same guys that helped develop the Cell. So those engineers had experience with what to do and what not to do.
Nintendo didn't work with those same guys. Since it doesn't take as advanced of a team to develop a CPU that is based on the old Gekko (PowerPC 750CXe mod) for the Gamecube, they used their old team that helped them with the Gekko.. The Wii CPU is about twice as fast as the Gekko, running at 729 MHz, single core. Decided to put that info out there for you.
TL;DR - Wii CPU was made in same manufacturing plant, but by a different team. - isit, on 01/02/2009, -8/+15The left analog stick for the ps3 controller is in the wrong place for me.
- DevSingh1359, on 01/02/2009, -1/+8Buried for inaccuracy.
- RyeBrye, on 01/02/2009, -3/+10Yes. Lying people who don't know their ass from a whole in the ground should be banned from digg for sure!
Oh - by the way - you want to explain to the rest of us how Microsoft is using the Cell processor in their Xbox 360? (you know... the one the article is about?) - pixelate, on 01/02/2009, -5/+12Either that or he interned for that Iraqi Minister of Information guy. Pretty much all of that is completely the other way around.
Facts:
- Sony's controller ergonomics are horribly outdated. Not as comfortable for FPS games. (Much) better D-pad, that's about it.
- Multiplatform games overwhelmingly perform better on the 360
- The 360's exclusives up till now have generally garnered higher sales and better reviews
- Microsoft is probably already making money on their console, but certainly will do so way before Sony
PS3 supporters have a lot more to crow about these days, but this guy hit on absolutely none of it. Impressive. - inactive, on 01/02/2009, -5/+12Since the Cell in a PS3 technically only has 6 operating SPEs(for the game), the XBOX360 is slightly faster(more powerful) than it. It also has a slightly faster(GFLOP) GPU. There's not actually much, game-wise, that the PS3 can do better than XBOX360. The SPEs are designed for stream processing, like audio. Standard methods of programming algorithms on PC/XBOX vary greatly in optimal design from PS3/Cell.
- specialK16, on 01/02/2009, -2/+8It's not Sony's tech, it's IBM's tech. If you and the author of this book were right then everyone would've stolen everyone's architecture.... seriously.
- FutureGuy, on 01/02/2009, -2/+8If MS (and Apple) didn't "steal" the idea, you would be using a printer/copier to browse the internet. Xerox never saw the potential of what they made, too bad for them.
- dusty, on 01/02/2009, -3/+9I suppose I'll be able to find this in the fiction section of my local Barnes & Noble
- specialK16, on 01/02/2009, -1/+7@fire: Just a small note: 1 SPE is redundant, 1 for the OS, leaving 6 for gaming.
- inactive, on 01/03/2009, -0/+6Micrsoft 'bailed out' Apple(195 mil,afaik). It was on the cover of Time magazine. "Thank you, Bill...", Jobs was quoted.
Microsoft recovered their investment and then some. Win, win! - Khast, on 01/03/2009, -0/+6Ala Sega Saturn....now that was another bastard to program for.....for the same reasons.
- HappyScrappy, on 01/02/2009, -3/+9I don't really buy it. And by the way, IBM pitched Cell to the company I was working at too in a similar timeframe.
The Xbox 360 and PS3 PowerPCs are both in-order units, but the 360 cores are also multithreaded. So I don't think they came from the PowerPC created for Cell.
And besides, Nintendo had been using an IBM PowerPC chip in their consoles since November 2001. So it's just as likely the Xbox 360 chip is an offshoot of those as it is of Cell. - Dragular, on 01/03/2009, -0/+6You spelled Chun-Li incorrectly. Your point is moot. You have lost all credibility. Beg forgiveness for your sins!
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